Art Auctions

[bucfan2]

6 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Stereotyping isn't nice.   

They may have used a generalisation, but certainly has it's share of truth. 

Edited July 5 by bucfan2

[mjldvlks]

Bottom line, I would never buy anything of significant value on a cruise ship unless I was extremely well versed in that particular market. 

[Cruise a holic]

On 7/4/2024 at 6:49 PM, alfaeric said:

lol. The casino rakes in a LOT more money than the art auction. Gambling is a far bigger scam. Unless you know of a “Vegas” built on art auctions out there. 

However, the ships must make a fortune from Park West.  They take up prime ship real estate and have a few employees in need of cabins and food-  A real money maker for the cruise lines.

[alfaeric]

3 hours ago, Cruise a holic said:

However, the ships must make a fortune from Park West.  They take up prime ship real estate and have a few employees in need of cabins and food-  A real money maker for the cruise lines.

Money?  Sure.   A fortune?  No way.  Enough to cover the cost of the space, and put a lot of art around that Royal doesn't have to pay for.  Again, way  more money is made on the shops (far more prime space and a lot more people), the spa (how many cabins could be up there?), and an order of magnitude more for the casino.

 

Mind you, after the PW controversy a decade ago, passengers actually want to have the art auction.  Royal tried to do it on their own, but could not do it.  And since passengers want this event, PW was asked to come back.

 

People can hate the auction all they want, but at least be realistic that it's not the only major money maker on the ship.  And not the biggest.  And when they try to sell the snake oil in the spa, that's pretty scammy.

[darkNstormy14]

Unfortunately, no one answered your question yet, OP!

 

I have purchased some Park West art - some a little on impulse, some we really really thought about it all cruise and pulled the trigger on the last night.  We love 90% of what we bought, and like the other 10%.  It's all good!

 

Some of the more modern artists, at least that I like, are Ashton Howard, Orlando Quevedo, Allison Lefcort, Christian Masot, Ziggy.

 

If you're really wanting to get a taste of it, join one of their weekend online auctions. 

 

Art is subjective, buy what you like 🤙

[graphicguy]

Truth is…every spa, every jewelry store, every casino, every “art” sale at every spa, Vegas or Bahamas hotel, seaside hotel, every cruise ship, everywhere in the world, are not venues to look for ‘bargains’!

 

They are not there.  

 

You want to shop for bargains?  Hit up the jewelry and t-shirt stores in Cancun or Cozumel!

Edited July 12 by graphicguy

[ReneeFLL]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:39 AM, alfaeric said:

Money?  Sure.   A fortune?  No way.  Enough to cover the cost of the space, and put a lot of art around that Royal doesn't have to pay for.  Again, way  more money is made on the shops (far more prime space and a lot more people), the spa (how many cabins could be up there?), and an order of magnitude more for the casino.

 

Mind you, after the PW controversy a decade ago, passengers actually want to have the art auction.  Royal tried to do it on their own, but could not do it.  And since passengers want this event, PW was asked to come back.

 

People can hate the auction all they want, but at least be realistic that it's not the only major money maker on the ship.  And not the biggest.  And when they try to sell the snake oil in the spa, that's pretty scammy.

What was the PW controversy?

 

edited - Never mind, I think I found it.

 

"The core claim was that Park West sold art at inflated prices by using high-pressure tricks, appraisals based on no valid methodology, and false claims of authenticity. Price lists in the court record show passengers spent tens of thousands of dollars on works that weren’t one-of-a-kind originals.”

Edited July 12 by ReneeFLL

[alfaeric]

4 hours ago, ReneeFLL said:

What was the PW controversy?

 

edited - Never mind, I think I found it.

 

"The core claim was that Park West sold art at inflated prices by using high-pressure tricks, appraisals based on no valid methodology, and false claims of authenticity. Price lists in the court record show passengers spent tens of thousands of dollars on works that weren’t one-of-a-kind originals.”

There was also some major issues with some Dali works that contributed to them getting booted from Royal for a while.  But that didn't last long.  As much as people on this board hate the art auction, there were enough people to have Royal contract with a small company in S FL to put it on- which didn't go well at all.  And PW was back on the ship in short order because they could supply what the passengers wanted. 

 

One thing I will say- if you can afford a piece of art, you can afford the internet package.  And research does wonders to know what kind of deal you are getting.  Some of what PW sells is genuine them only- we've been to Britto's store many times and noticed some of the stuff he sells via PW isn't available in his own studios.  

 

So if you like a piece, do a little research to see if it's what you are willing to pay for.  The PW staff will provide you with more than enough info about the part to quickly research it before the actual auction starts.  Just like you can check where you can get that special watch or jewels that you want.

 

The only thing you can't really research if it's a good deal or not is being sure you will win at the casino.

[Mum2Mercury]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:07 PM, mjldvlks said:

Bottom line, I would never buy anything of significant value on a cruise ship unless I was extremely well versed in that particular market. 

Well said. 

On 7/10/2024 at 5:52 AM, Cruise a holic said:

However, the ships must make a fortune from Park West.  They take up prime ship real estate and have a few employees in need of cabins and food-  A real money maker for the cruise lines.

Yeah, that's common sense.  If this place weren't earning, the Royal accountants would've kicked it to the curb by now. 

It also seems that artwork feels "cultured and upscale" -- something of a contrast to the Belly Flop contest.  I think that works in the cruise line's favor.  

12 hours ago, graphicguy said:

Truth is…every spa, every jewelry store, every casino, every “art” sale at every spa, Vegas or Bahamas hotel, seaside hotel, every cruise ship, everywhere in the world, are not venues to look for ‘bargains’!

 

They are not there.  

 

You want to shop for bargains?  Hit up the jewelry and t-shirt stores in Cancun or Cozumel!

Again, well said. 

36 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

One thing I will say- if you can afford a piece of art, you can afford the internet package. 

I always hate this line of reasoning.  Just because I CAN afford something doesn't mean I'm willing to pay for it /doesn't mean I see value in it. 

I'd say, If you like a piece of art, write down the artist's name and search for it once you're back home and can comparison shop.  The pieces they have onboard are available elsewhere.  What you're getting onboard is a print /not an original anyway.  

[alfaeric]

3 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

 

I always hate this line of reasoning.  Just because I CAN afford something doesn't mean I'm willing to pay for it /doesn't mean I see value in it. 

I'd say, If you like a piece of art, write down the artist's name and search for it once you're back home and can comparison shop.  The pieces they have onboard are available elsewhere.  What you're getting onboard is a print /not an original anyway.  

Why?  That people should do research or that you automatically think that the PW prices are bad deals?

 

Some of what you see are actual originals.  Most are not.  Some of the originals are just modified prints where you don't get the exact piece you bought.  I'll give you that.  But if you do your research, you will actually find that there are pieces that are unique to PW and their auctions.  That's the kind of contracts they sign with artists.  

 

As for seeing value in something- that's entirely up to the purchaser.  If you see someone buy something, it's their view that there's value in it.  Art is the most subjective thing in the world to buy something- you may see a bunch of childish splotches on paper, others see a work of genius.  It's not for you to decide what others want to spend their money on.

 

My point is that if a piece of art appeals to you so much that you are willing to buy it, use your phone to check on if it's truly a deal that you want.  Mind you, paying more on a ship isn't automatically a bad deal- it's can be another special souvenir.  You may be willing to get a small piece of ugly plastic to remember your trip, others may want something they can hang on a wall.

 

We were tempted by Art on Royal for a piece, looked it up, and found out that there were no printing controls on that particular piece.  It's all a matter of knowing what you are getting.

[Mum2Mercury]

4 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Why?  That people should do research or that you automatically think that the PW prices are bad deals?

 

Some of what you see are actual originals.  Most are not.  Some of the originals are just modified prints where you don't get the exact piece you bought.  I'll give you that.  But if you do your research, you will actually find that there are pieces that are unique to PW and their auctions.  That's the kind of contracts they sign with artists.  

 

As for seeing value in something- that's entirely up to the purchaser.  If you see someone buy something, it's their view that there's value in it.  Art is the most subjective thing in the world to buy something- you may see a bunch of childish splotches on paper, others see a work of genius.  It's not for you to decide what others want to spend their money on.

 

My point is that if a piece of art appeals to you so much that you are willing to buy it, use your phone to check on if it's truly a deal that you want.  Mind you, paying more on a ship isn't automatically a bad deal- it's can be another special souvenir.  You may be willing to get a small piece of ugly plastic to remember your trip, others may want something they can hang on a wall.

 

We were tempted by Art on Royal for a piece, looked it up, and found out that there were no printing controls on that particular piece.  It's all a matter of knowing what you are getting.

No, we're not on the same page here.  My comment was not art-specific. 

 

I meant, I hate the much-repeated thought, "If you can afford ____, you can afford ____."  Always, Item A has nothing to do with Item B. 

[alfaeric]

36 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

No, we're not on the same page here.  My comment was not art-specific. 

 

I meant, I hate the much-repeated thought, "If you can afford ____, you can afford ____."  Always, Item A has nothing to do with Item B. 

In this case, A and B are related.  If you can afford to buy a piece of art, you can afford to know you are getting a good deal.  Like the OP can go directly to KR8's web store (during the auction) to see what you can get directly vs. what you get on the ship.  Knowledge is power.

[yogimax]

1 hour ago, Mum2Mercury said:

What you're getting onboard is a print /not an original anyway.  

Not always true.  Some are originals and will have a higher price tag.

 

I did find PW to be quite honest and upfront in describing the size of a particular edition.  For they will describe it as a lithograph with an edition size of 150. 

 

The definition of a "print" can also be argued.  A lithograph may be technically a print but it is high quality with significant detail.

 

One artist to avoid when it comes to value is Kinkade.  His edition sizes run to the tens of thousands.  They also produce various sizes, each of which has its own edition.  Buy it if you like it, not because it will increase in value.

[Mum2Mercury]

37 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

In this case, A and B are related.  If you can afford to buy a piece of art, you can afford to know you are getting a good deal.  Like the OP can go directly to KR8's web store (during the auction) to see what you can get directly vs. what you get on the ship.  Knowledge is power.

Disagree. 

Paying X amount every day of the cruise so you can verify the price of art ONCE during the week doesn't seem like value to me.  And if you've determined you like a certain painting, you can always buy it at home, where the price is almost sure to be lower.  

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Disagree. 

Paying X amount every day of the cruise so you can verify the price of art ONCE during the week doesn't seem like value to me.  And if you've determined you like a certain painting, you can always buy it at home, where the price is almost sure to be lower.  

You are welcome to disagree, but you can get it for a day.  And some tiers even have a day for free.  To know you are getting something worth a few hundred to a few thousands of dollars, it's worth it.

 

And you can't always buy it at home, unless it could be from PW, since they have exclusive rights to some pieces.  Like certain Britto pieces you can only get from PW and not from his galleries.  Or Tarkay may only be available via PW.  Let alone some of the collections they have bought up over the years they have been open.  And the old standby that you can get something like it at your local art fair- not really since you wont find Britto at your local art fair.

 

Not sure why people enjoy piling on PW so very much.  It's not as if you are being forced to go.  If you are bothered by their announcements, then are you so bothered by bingo or the other various announcements?  And they are a fraction of the money people give to RCI during a cruise compared to Bingo, the Casino, the Spa, and the shops on board.  At least on the cruises we've been on.  

[cruisegus]

3 hours ago, alfaeric said:

 If you are bothered by their announcements, then are you so bothered by bingo or the other various announcements?  

 

Absolutely

 

One of the worse disruptions on a cruise, 2nd only to the waiters song and dance in the MDR

 

[Cruise a holic]

Actually I really enjoy Celebrity cruises.  The announcement policy is one time per day.  While Royal IMO offers the best entertainment (Oasis class ships), and speciality restaurant options, Celebrity no smoking policy in Casino and announcement policy is great.  They offer the same auctions and jewelry hawking.

Edited July 13 by Cruise a holic

[marci22]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:00 PM, joepeka said:

On one of our earliest cruises years ago, we attended one of these auctions and somehow won a free print of one of the items. We liked it and wanted it (it was free... right?) but the cost for them to package and ship to us in AZ was horrible and we had to have it framed ourselves at home (it came from Park West in a mailing tube). Overall, the cost of the shipping and framing was a lot more than the value of the print and as such, we've never attended another "art auction" on any of our subsequent cruises. Lesson learned.

The same thing happened to me. Many years ago 'won' a 'free' print, fairly small, they said they would ship it in a tube and it would be $35. Never went to an auction again. 

 

I do still ask them when I see all the art lined up on the floor, 'why is this valuable art sitting on the floor?' 

[marci22]

20 hours ago, alfaeric said:

Not sure why people enjoy piling on PW so very much. 

Lots of articles online as to why.

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, marci22 said:

Lots of articles online as to why.

As opposed to the scams that are the casino, spa, etc...  Ok.  

 

You can get a massage so much cheaper at home than on the ship, and you are not left with a pressure ad to buy their snake oil.  But nobody complains about that.  Let alone the casino that rakes in HUGE dollars every single day.  There are occasional posts about the jewelry and watches that you can get cheaper in other places- but the tone certainly doesn't match the auctions.

 

Somehow this much smaller player gets the bulk of the wrath of this group.  Even when it's clear that most people here don't bother with the auctions.  THAT is my point.

[ReneeFLL]

4 hours ago, alfaeric said:

As opposed to the scams that are the casino, spa, etc...  Ok.  

 

You can get a massage so much cheaper at home than on the ship, and you are not left with a pressure ad to buy their snake oil.  But nobody complains about that.  Let alone the casino that rakes in HUGE dollars every single day.  There are occasional posts about the jewelry and watches that you can get cheaper in other places- but the tone certainly doesn't match the auctions.

 

Somehow this much smaller player gets the bulk of the wrath of this group.  Even when it's clear that most people here don't bother with the auctions.  THAT is my point.

Most everyone knows that in a casino you are going to lose money. People generally know spa prices at home versus on the ship. They also want to do something relaxing and treat themselves while on the ship. The art auctions are completely different. Most people go in not knowing art prices. PW tells them they are valuable and or rare. Also makes it sound like they are getting a painting and not a poster. I can see why there are so many upset people with all the complaints. They are misled. Yes, they should know more about art before spending thousands of dollars on a print, but unfortunately they believe what they are told.

[yogimax]

36 minutes ago, ReneeFLL said:

Most everyone knows that in a casino you are going to lose money.

How about bingo?  This is a huge money maker for RCCL.  The vast majority of people will go home with nothing except a bigger hole in their pocket or purse.

 

Those going home from the art auction will at least have a piece of art that they obviously enjoy and will be with them for years.

 

By the way, please do some research into the complexity of lithographs, serigraphs and etchings.  When you do you will understand that the use of the word "prints" does them injustice.

 

 

[birdofsong]

I love all the "whatabouts" in here.  We're not talking about the casino, or the spa, or even bingo.  Purchasing art is an entirely different animal.  You know exactly what you're getting in all three of those examples, and if you win, you know exactly what you've won.  You don't have to hope that the money you won in the casino or bingo is real, do you? 

Edited July 13 by birdofsong

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, birdofsong said:

I love all the "whatabouts" in here.  We're not talking about the casino, or the spa, or even bingo.  Purchasing art is an entirely different animal.  You know exactly what you're getting in all three of those examples, and if you win, you know exactly what you've won.  You don't have to hope that the money you won in the casino or bingo is real, do you? 

All that does is discount the fact that every single gambling ad has to have a gambling addiction hot line.  Or what a spa at home can give you..,,

 

Do you HONESTLY think a shave is worth $50?  A simple shave with an ordinary razor?  I used a coupon for one, and I can do a better job.  Let alone they brag about some kind of body fixing ability in the spa, which is total BS.  

 

You somehow justify gambling as it being ok that you spend money when you are not every going to get it back long term just because you get money back.  Seriously?  Vegas became "Vegas" because people lose, not because they win.  But since you have a small chance of getting money back, that makes it ok?  Sorry, that makes no sense at all.

 

Let alone the idea that every piece of art bought is totally unknown of what you are actually getting.  Sure, if you go in lazy and don't bother learning what it is and putting up money for it- that's just like putting $3000 on one hand or one spin of roulette.  

 

But if you all want to hate from the cheap seats when you hand over your hard earned money trying to win money in a losing effort, or that you may be able to pretend to lose 5lb in a stone treatment... yea, go for it.  

[alfaeric]

3 hours ago, ReneeFLL said:

Most everyone knows that in a casino you are going to lose money. People generally know spa prices at home versus on the ship. They also want to do something relaxing and treat themselves while on the ship. The art auctions are completely different. Most people go in not knowing art prices. PW tells them they are valuable and or rare. Also makes it sound like they are getting a painting and not a poster. I can see why there are so many upset people with all the complaints. They are misled. Yes, they should know more about art before spending thousands of dollars on a print, but unfortunately they believe what they are told.

Do they? 

 

Do you really know that you are going to lose $100 or $1000 in the casino and are ok with it?  Do you really know what kind of spa treatment you can get at home?   Do you really think the spa people are telling you the 100% truth in what their work will do to your body?  

 

No way. 

 

If I had $400, I would rather have poster to look at on my wall than pretend that the steam and rock treatment I got actually did something long term and helpful.  And I have seen spa treatments that were $400.

 

People are misled when going to the spa and all of the horrible upsells that go with it, people are misled that they have a realistic chance to get a suite in Bingo, people are misled that they will walk out of the casino with more money than they went in with.  It's hardly unique to the auction.

 

And I can actually look up what I'm getting in the auction, if I chose to.