Any Decoy Cabernet Sauvignon?

[phoenix_dream]

19 hours ago, jelayne said:

Decoy was available on the Edge in late April.  I read on these boards a day or so ago it has been moved back out of the Premium package. 

I saw that too and am hoping against hope that it was a mistake! It's our go-to wine and we were furious when it was above premium package. We will be very unhappy campers if it is not available in Luminae on our upcoming cruises for which we paid a lot of $$.

[markeb]

Has anyone tried the Bordeaux? It's the same price per bottle retail as Decoy. I'd probably expect about the same from it, but less fruit forward and maybe a little sense of place. Probably a better food wine anyway.

 

(My inner wine geek is annoyed they feel the need to refer to a Bordeaux as a Cabernet Sauvignon blend (at least it is a left bank, so they should be correct) or a Cotes du Rhone as a Grenache blend.)

[rbelshaw]

I had Decoy on the Beyond last evening at $17 per glass The bottle from my local grocery is $17.97. Not complaining, just sayin'.

[zitsky]

17 minutes ago, markeb said:

Has anyone tried the Bordeaux? It's the same price per bottle retail as Decoy. I'd probably expect about the same from it, but less fruit forward and maybe a little sense of place. Probably a better food wine anyway.

 

(My inner wine geek is annoyed they feel the need to refer to a Bordeaux as a Cabernet Sauvignon blend (at least it is a left bank, so they should be correct) or a Cotes du Rhone as a Grenache blend.)

Which one is the Bordeaux?  I prefer Cab Franc myself or white Bordeaux (Sauvignon blanc/semillon).

[markeb]

19 minutes ago, zitsky said:

Which one is the Bordeaux?  I prefer Cab Franc myself or white Bordeaux (Sauvignon blanc/semillon).

Mouton Cadet. I’m not sure there’s a Cab Franc predominant traditional Bordeaux. I like a good Cab Franc as well. Hard grape to grow…

[zitsky]

45 minutes ago, markeb said:

Mouton Cadet. I’m not sure there’s a Cab Franc predominant traditional Bordeaux. I like a good Cab Franc as well. Hard grape to grow…

I see.  I was drinking that 30 years ago.  It’s nice but relatively cheap.  At least there are plenty of choices.

[markeb]

Just now, zitsky said:

I see.  I was drinking that 30 years ago.  It’s nice but relatively cheap.  At least there are plenty of choices.

Same price as Decoy at retail. Both are inexpensive. One is second tier Duckhorn. The other is second (or so) tier Baron Philippe de Rothschild. 

[canderson]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

Mouton Cadet. I’m not sure there’s a Cab Franc predominant traditional Bordeaux. I like a good Cab Franc as well. Hard grape to grow…

Not sure I'd like it if they did make one.  I like the character it adds to many blends, but in abundance, it grabs me mid rear palette and speaks loudly to me.  I'm a fair bit more sensitive to bitter flavors than most (cannot cope with most IPA or other hoppy beers).  Some say you can bury Cab Franc's inherent bitterness with more fruit, but my palette ain't being fooled that easily if I'm trying to drink it unblended.  Not a huge fan of tannic monsters or new oak for the same reason.

 

It's all too bad, because Cab Franc has a lot to say for itself otherwise.  Good food wine.

 

[George C]

6 minutes ago, canderson said:

Not sure I'd like it if they did make one.  I like the character it adds to many blends, but in abundance, it grabs me mid rear palette and speaks loudly to me.  I'm a fair bit more sensitive to bitter flavors than most (cannot cope with most IPA or other hoppy beers).  Some say you can bury Cab Franc's inherent bitterness with more fruit, but my palette ain't being fooled that easily if I'm trying to drink it unblended.  Not a huge fan of tannic monsters or new oak for the same reason.

 

It's all too bad, because Cab Franc has a lot to say for itself otherwise.  Good food wine.

 

The thing with any wine type is there are good and bad , expensive and cheap . My go to is. Napa or Alexander valley Cabernet or merlot. Have had some good cab francs , same thing goes for Chardonnay etc. 

[markeb]

18 minutes ago, canderson said:

Not sure I'd like it if they did make one.  I like the character it adds to many blends, but in abundance, it grabs me mid rear palette and speaks loudly to me.  I'm a fair bit more sensitive to bitter flavors than most (cannot cope with most IPA or other hoppy beers).  Some say you can bury Cab Franc's inherent bitterness with more fruit, but my palette ain't being fooled that easily if I'm trying to drink it unblended.  Not a huge fan of tannic monsters or new oak for the same reason.

 

It's all too bad, because Cab Franc has a lot to say for itself otherwise.  Good food wine.

 

 

I've had some very good Cabernet Franc single varietals. And some very bad ones. The best have been from Washington and more recently from here in Virginia. Which is a major change for me. Cabernet Franc was always the red wine of Virginia (some producers keep trying to grow single varietal Cabernet Sauvignon, because, I assume, American wine drinkers are idiots and think single varietals are automatically better than blends, but I digress. It doesn't grow well here!). It was actually a rainy day at a local winery where we had a long conversation with the winemaker, who strangely enough was from Washington. Left to its own devices, Cab Franc will be bitter and reek of green bell pepper. It's at least as much work in the vineyard and in the winery to make a good Cab Franc as it is to make a good Pinot Noir. I don't remember half of what he talked about, other than hand pruning leaves, literally, but he convinced me. His wines were and continue to be amazing.

 

When we moved to Virginia 20+ years ago (on a 3 year tour...), most of the Cab Franc was harsh, full of bell pepper, and had a funk factor that's hard to describe. Definitely NOT the French terroir. Newer winemakers have been doing an amazing job of massaging some very nice wines out of it. Like all Virginia wines, they're overpriced, but they've gotten much better. Even more amazing is a number of wineries in Northern Virginia have been producing single varietal Petite Verdot (that 1% grape in Bordeaux) that have been incredible.

 

I think the best I currently have are from Red Mountain in Washington. Very nice. And they pair well with food.

 

So you can make an amazing single varietal Cabernet Franc. The French really haven't had a reason to do that. It's unlikely to ever amount to more than a few percentage points in the world market, especially in the US. And in France and most of the EU, the bottle will say Chateau Mouton, Bordeaux, and if the consumer is too stupid to know what that means, we don't care...

[canderson]

21 minutes ago, George C said:

The thing with any wine type is there are good and bad , expensive and cheap . My go to is. Napa or Alexander valley Cabernet or merlot. Have had some good cab francs , same thing goes for Chardonnay etc. 

I remember when my go-to was Silver Oak from Alexander (I liked it better than the Napa), but then around the turn of the century, they lost their vintner, and to my mind, the character of the wine changed dramatically.  Never looked back.  I wonder if it's changed since then?

[zitsky]

1 minute ago, markeb said:

 

I've had some very good Cabernet Franc single varietals. And some very bad ones. The best have been from Washington and more recently from here in Virginia. Which is a major change for me. Cabernet Franc was always the red wine of Virginia (some producers keep trying to grow single varietal Cabernet Sauvignon, because, I assume, American wine drinkers are idiots and think single varietals are automatically better than blends, but I digress. It doesn't grow well here!). It was actually a rainy day at a local winery where we had a long conversation with the winemaker, who strangely enough was from Washington. Left to its own devices, Cab Franc will be bitter and reek of green bell pepper. It's at least as much work in the vineyard and in the winery to make a good Cab Franc as it is to make a good Pinot Noir. I don't remember half of what he talked about, other than hand pruning leaves, literally, but he convinced me. His wines were and continue to be amazing.

 

When we moved to Virginia 20+ years ago (on a 3 year tour...), most of the Cab Franc was harsh, full of bell pepper, and had a funk factor that's hard to describe. Definitely NOT the French terroir. Newer winemakers have been doing an amazing job of massaging some very nice wines out of it. Like all Virginia wines, they're overpriced, but they've gotten much better. Even more amazing is a number of wineries in Northern Virginia have been producing single varietal Petite Verdot (that 1% grape in Bordeaux) that have been incredible.

 

I think the best I currently have are from Red Mountain in Washington. Very nice. And they pair well with food.

 

So you can make an amazing single varietal Cabernet Franc. The French really haven't had a reason to do that. It's unlikely to ever amount to more than a few percentage points in the world market, especially in the US. And in France and most of the EU, the bottle will say Chateau Mouton, Bordeaux, and if the consumer is too stupid to know what that means, we don't care...

What do you think about wines from the west of Virginia?  We may drive up there on the way to Pennsylvania.

 

I bought some very nice Cab Franc from Walla Walla.  We sometimes find it in North Carolina.

[markeb]

1 minute ago, zitsky said:

What do you think about wines from the west of Virginia?  We may drive up there on the way to Pennsylvania.

 

I bought some very nice Cab Franc from Walla Walla.  We sometimes find it in North Carolina.

 

Where? We mainly go to Loudon County, the Charlottesville area, and I66 from Delaplane to I81. If you're coming along I81 from the Carolinas to Pennsylvania, then we've found some nice wineries in that area. Our favorite, right now, at least near there, is actually Delaplane Cellars. Some very nice wines, a great Petite Manseng, and wonderful views from their tasting room. 

 

Middleburg is a town in Loudon County known for the wineries nearby. I think that's @DaKahuna territory. That's a little further afield from I81. We're also big fans of Doukenie in Hillsboro. Smallish winery (club supported) with mostly French style wines. A great barrel select Chardonnay, and some good blends. Those are further off your direct route. There's also a very nice rye whiskey distillery (Catoctin Creek) in Purcellville in the same area. And one of the best semi-small town burger places in this part of the world! Those are all a detour.

 

I'm a lot more hit and miss in and around Charlottesville (Monticello AVA). I'd argue the undisputed best of breed is Barboursville. They're at least one of, if not the oldest wineries in Virginia. Their Octagon is a classic Bordeaux blend that will lay down like a Bordeaux. And is pretty excellent. Also an example of the benefit of blending...

 

We have a couple of small places 15-30 minutes from us, but well off your path to Pennsylvania.

[markeb]

18 minutes ago, canderson said:

I remember when my go-to was Silver Oak from Alexander (I liked it better than the Napa), but then around the turn of the century, they lost their vintner, and to my mind, the character of the wine changed dramatically.  Never looked back.  I wonder if it's changed since then?

 

Coombsville...

 

Dry like Stags Leap, but cooler from the breezes coming off the Bay. We were there last December and were shocked by the wines. Porter Family may be available in Colorado.  

[George C]

18 minutes ago, canderson said:

I remember when my go-to was Silver Oak from Alexander (I liked it better than the Napa), but then around the turn of the century, they lost their vintner, and to my mind, the character of the wine changed dramatically.  Never looked back.  I wonder if it's changed since then?

We went to a Silver Oaks wine dinner at Ruth Chris about a year ago , I thought both the napa and Alexander valley cab was really nice , we actually won a bottle of Alexander valley which sells here for about 90 , napa goes for about 150 in total wine .

[zitsky]

2 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Where? We mainly go to Loudon County, the Charlottesville area, and I66 from Delaplane to I81. If you're coming along I81 from the Carolinas to Pennsylvania, then we've found some nice wineries in that area. Our favorite, right now, at least near there, is actually Delaplane Cellars. Some very nice wines, a great Petite Manseng, and wonderful views from their tasting room. 

 

Middleburg is a town in Loudon County known for the wineries nearby. I think that's @DaKahuna territory. That's a little further afield from I81. We're also big fans of Doukenie in Hillsboro. Smallish winery (club supported) with mostly French style wines. A great barrel select Chardonnay, and some good blends. Those are further off your direct route. There's also a very nice rye whiskey distillery (Catoctin Creek) in Purcellville in the same area. And one of the best semi-small town burger places in this part of the world! Those are all a detour.

 

I'm a lot more hit and miss in and around Charlottesville (Monticello AVA). I'd argue the undisputed best of breed is Barboursville. They're at least one of, if not the oldest wineries in Virginia. Their Octagon is a classic Bordeaux blend that will lay down like a Bordeaux. And is pretty excellent. Also an example of the benefit of blending...

 

We have a couple of small places 15-30 minutes from us, but well off your path to Pennsylvania.

I’m referring to these wineries.  I do not know them, nor have I ever been there.

 

Pippin Hill Farm & Vineyards

 

Hazy Mountain Vineyard

 

 

[markeb]

14 minutes ago, zitsky said:

I’m referring to these wineries.  I do not know them, nor have I ever been there.

 

Pippin Hill Farm & Vineyards

 

Hazy Mountain Vineyard

 

 

 

Don't know them. I've had mixed results in that part of Virginia. Which doesn't mean they're not great wineries. It looks like Pippin Hill opened in 2011 and Hazy Mountain in 2021. I get an event center vibe from Hazy Mountain's web page, but that may be overly critical. I just have no first hand knowledge. Sorry.

[DaKahuna]

4 hours ago, markeb said:

Cotes du Rhone

 

 I have had the Cotes du Rhone and it was good.  Then again, I can only think of one wine I had I would not order again but right now I cannot remember what it was. 

 

 I ask on our last two cruises if there was a GSM aboard and there was not. 

 

 

[markeb]

12 minutes ago, DaKahuna said:

 

 I have had the Cotes du Rhone and it was good.  Then again, I can only think of one wine I had I would not order again but right now I cannot remember what it was. 

 

 I ask on our last two cruises if there was a GSM aboard and there was not. 

 

 

Which is interesting, as almost all Cotes du Rhones are GSM...

 

Teach...your children (sommeliers) well...

[DaKahuna]

3 hours ago, markeb said:

Mouton Cadet.

 

 I remember having it on an S-class a time or two but did not come across it on our last sailing. 

 

59 minutes ago, markeb said:

Even more amazing is a number of wineries in Northern Virginia have been producing single varietal Petite Verdot (that 1% grape in Bordeaux) that have been incredible.

 

 i agree whole heartidly with you on that.  

 

41 minutes ago, markeb said:

We're also big fans of Doukenie in Hillsboro.

 

On my list of places to visit.  I live in Purcellville so Hillsboro is in our 'back yard' so to speak.  A lot closer than Middleburg.   

 

 Next time you are up this way, see if you can stop in at 868 Estate Vineyards.  That is our current vineyard of choice.  They have a few interesting reds including a Merlot and an Estate Grandale that I enjoy. 

 

Just as a matter of interest I will be opening another Livermore, CA wine to have with dinner tomorrow.  Wente 2018 Small Lot Serenity -  51% Syrah, 36% Petite Sirah, 8% Mourverde, and 5% Grenache.  15.0% ABV

 

 

I also love that burger joint.  Got a kick out of granddaughter when we went there after first moving here .. We sat in the back room and she swore the place was haunted.  I need to make a visit again, it's been a while.  (check out the ice cream place next door too).

 

 

 

[jelayne]

3 hours ago, markeb said:

Same price as Decoy at retail. Both are inexpensive. One is second tier Duckhorn. The other is second (or so) tier Baron Philippe de Rothschild. 

Retail here for Decoy is $16 and the Mouton Cadet is $10.  IMHO both belong on the Classic package.

[markeb]

1 minute ago, jelayne said:

Retail here for Decoy is $16 and the Mouton Cadet is $10.  IMHO both belong on the Classic package.

 

Agree. But they're not...

[NMTraveller]

On 8/5/2024 at 9:04 PM, chuckroast1 said:

Heh, it wasn't very long ago that the Excelsior was a mainstay of the Classic Package!

No one should have to drink Excelsior.  My taste buds went on strike...  It would be best if they just dropped it altogether and kept Decoy as the lowly Cab.  And put some better $20 per bottle wines in the premium package.  

 

When I go to a nice restaurant they have only nice wines on the menu.  Why does Celebrity keep wines on the menu that are atrocious?

Edited August 7 by NMTraveller

[markeb]

26 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

No one should have to drink Excelsior.  My taste buds went on strike...  It would be best if they just dropped it altogether and kept Decoy as the lowly Cab.  And put some better $20 per bottle wines in the premium package.  

 

When I go to a nice restaurant they have only nice wines on the menu.  Why does Celebrity keep wines on the menu that are atrocious?

 

Are those nice wines by the glass or by the bottle? And even nice restaurants typically titrate the wine to the buyer's perceived price point. 

 

People drink what they like. I'm fine with that. There are wines that are favorites on this board that I probably wouldn't buy to save my life. But the best wine (rum, whisk(e)y, gin, etc.) is the one you like the way you like it. If that's a chilled California cab, enjoy it and don't let anyone tell you you're wrong.

 

Why does Celebrity keep wines on the menu that are atrocious (in your, and likely my, opinion)? Because 1) people like them, 2) people buy them, and 3) they're produced in sufficient quantities to feed the beast that is RCG. Celebrity, as evidenced by their bottle lists, has an amazing wine program. But by the glass is pretty pedestrian, as are most wine lists. And they're very heavy on easily recognizable wines because that's what people buy. Tariffs have screwed things up a bit but historically you could find a good Bordeaux, definitely a good Super Tuscan, an excellent Tempranillo, a very good Malbec, and maybe even a decent Barolo for what people are paying for an average Napa Valley Cabernet, which you can probably beat in quality for price from either Washington or Paso Robles! But people continue to buy average Napa Valley cabs...

 

I have a restaurant I go to in Manhattan for special events where they actually have a real wine list and the (real) sommeliers will match by the glass wines to your courses. No wine packages. A surprise once or twice on price, but always for an amazing wine. And if they run out of that one, they have others. And yes, I've paid $45 a glass for wine and no it definitely was NOT for Caymus! That just isn't the business model on a cruise ship.

 

Out last cruise ended up not being a wine cruise, even though we're wine people. We'll see for out next cruise, which may well be Celebrity again. That one may be bottle time, and enjoy cocktails, water, and sodas for our drink package. Or DW enjoys whites and rose (as do I to a point) which would balance things out. I'm spoiled these days on reds (you do NOT want to see my Cellar Tracker...) and just can't expect that quality by the glass on any cruise ship on any line...

[sweep2907]

Decoy only recently got moved back into premium drinks package, so unlikely they've pushed it out again. Be interesting to see what new wines come in after recent CEO announcement of dedicated wine people....they do need a refresh imo.