HAL's Tipping Policy

[newmexicoNita]

kryos posted

 

Those people should be compensated by the cruise line ... not me.

 

Again, cruise lines pay no one, we do, the cruisers. It's just like taxes on business. These are not paid by the business but by us, the customers. It all comes down to what you expect and if what you recieve equals your expectations you'll be back and THAT is what counts.

 

I view the 10 dollars just like another sales tax. It's part of the price of the cruise. You can't have the cruise without it....like the cruise, pay the tax, port charges, fare and now the tips...the itemized bill keeps getting longer.

 

When you go into McDonalds, their menu quotes a price...they then add sales tax to it. You say I don't want the tax today. They say simple, no Big Mac ...why spin that one expense out? They don't spin out the price of the cup or the straw or the lights. It's because that's the way things are done. You can vote with your dollars, go or don't go...

WEll you have 2 choices as I see it: you either plan on the $10 a day and hopefully a little more here and there or the cruise lines pays better and raises our rates. I prefer the tipping method, I am sure the crew does too as they do not have to pay taxes on all they make. NMnita

[newmexicoNita]

Was just wondering as I've been reading on the tipping in the Pinnacle. So if I leave a $20.00 or more tip there on the table is that going to go in the tipping pool as well?????

No, if you pay in cash it should go directly to the wait staff. I think it is supposed to go in the pool, but who would ever know the difference? NMNita

[Stevesan]

No, if you pay in cash it should go directly to the wait staff. I think it is supposed to go in the pool, but who would ever know the difference? NMNita

 

Many restaurants have similar tip pooling. You can be sure no one would want to pocket tips when they know Tony Soprano is on the case.:eek:

 

In additon to retaliation from ship mates, cruise line policy is to terminate anyone caught holding back. That hardly seems worth the game.

[bepsf]

I have no problem whatsoever with the $10. It's who it's going to that bothers me. I don't like the thought that some faceless people, who do NOTHING to assist my server in doing his job, are sharing part of the booty. I'd rather see my servers get that extra $3.00 per day.**

--rita

 

Rita--

 

I understand your concerns, and I share them.

 

However unfortunately, the cruiselines have had an underground system of tips and payments to behind-the-scenes personnel for decades. *This is nothing even remotely new.

 

Stewards had to pay the laundry staff, Waiters had to pay the kitchen staff, Bartenders had to pay the dishwashers, Casino dealers had to pay the cashiers...

...and if a crew member didn't tip the Cruise Director, they could be passed up for promotions or worse - even prevented from being allowed to return to the ship to earn a living.* (Another reason so many former cruise directors were able to retire VERY comfortably - they made more in tips and kickbacks than they did in salary!)

 

Initially ignored by the lines, the abuses became such that a guest might receive poor service simply because a steward or waiter was stiffed by guests on the previous cruise & not having the money to pay the behind the scenes personnel might not get the support necessary to serve the following weeks guests properly.

 

Auto-tips are the cruiselines way of getting away from these abuses as much as possible by making sure that everyone is "tipped" in a more even-handed manner. *BTW - Contrary to popular belief, All cash tips go into the Auto-tip system and are disbersed the same way - in exchange, the Crew Member turning over the cash tip gets additional credits from the Crew Member's fund plus additional recognition from management.

 

This is by no means a perfect system, but it's an attempt to ensure that every staffmember has an equal opportunity to do the best job they can to please the line's guests.

[RuthC]

*BTW - Contrary to popular belief, All cash tips go into the Auto-tip system and are disbersed the same way - in exchange, the Crew Member turning over the cash tip gets additional credits from the Crew Member's fund plus additional recognition from management.

Whoa, Nellie. Back up a minute. Where are you getting this from, Brian? :confused:

From the dawn of time---ok, from the dawn of the service charge/auto tip system---we have been told time and time again that if we leave the $10 pp/pd service charge intact, and give additional in cash, then the recipient is allowed to keep the extra funds.

This is stated by every cruise dorector at every disembarkation talk. We have hashed this out on this board over and over again.

And what do you mean by "additional credits from the Crew Member's Fund"?

Please clarify or expand on what you said here.

 

Thanks. ;)

[Sunshine91]

John & I look at the auto-tip as a service charge. We appreciated it being there this past Feb on Noordam because it eliminated the confusion over what amounts were appropriate. When deserved, we gave extra, with comments on the card, too.

The previous times we sailed, HAL had a "tipping not required" policy, but we knew it was expected & besides that, we wanted to. HAL refused to provide guidelines or suggest amounts. I'm guessing we under-tipped our room & dining stewards simply out of ignorance. And the bar stewards - I'm guessing we didn't at all. How tacky is that? Now back then all we really ordered is a coke or a single beer, & usually directly from the bartender. He hands you a chit, you sign it. You don't think to calculate a percentage or add a dollar or two. It's not like you are paying cash then leave the change & then some. The 15% gratuity for bar service means that the servers will be taken care of, just like in a regular bar. :)

Because of this board John & I now know a whole lot more about the proper etiquette of sailing & tipping plus a whole host of other things. Thank you everyone. I also now enjoy grown-up drinks, whereas before if you just gave me a beer I was a happy girl ;) (but that's not because of CC). So I'm still learning about bar service.

[Jim Gallup]

Brian is actually correct - for most cases.

Although all the mass market cruise lines with auto tipping have the same policy (additional cash tips belong to the crewmember who receives them), most of the time the crew in each department vote to donate additional cash tips to the pool. This is strictly their choice. The cruise line has nothing to say about it.

 

People who do not work on ships simply do not understand how strong the Team Concept is on a ship. We succeed or fail as a group - always.

 

But we do very clearly understand that if the passengers think that additional tips to their favorite steward will be split amongst several other people, those tips will either diminish or not happen at all.

So you will be hard pressed to find a steward who will admit that the additional money you give him will find it's way into other pockets as well.

[RuthC]

This is strictly their choice. The cruise line has nothing to say about it.

In that case I'm fine with their system.

Once I give $$$ to someone it's his to do with as he pleases. If that means sharing with others that's up to him.

[bepsf]

Whoa, Nellie. Back up a minute. Where are you getting this from, Brian? :confused:

 

 

I understood from a well-known HAL staff-person that, contrary to what we thought,* all additional tips went into the group-till. *I was surprised (a little horrified?) too, but it makes sense to me now since it eliminates the distinction between cash from pax who eliminated Auto-Tip and those who didn't.

 

I never go to the disembarcation talks, so I don't know what they say there...

(What do they say there?)

[newmexicoNita]

Many restaurants have similar tip pooling. You can be sure no one would want to pocket tips when they know Tony Soprano is on the case.:eek:

 

In additon to retaliation from ship mates, cruise line policy is to terminate anyone caught holding back. That hardly seems worth the game.

No, this is different: I know about restaurants, my daughter worked as a waitress while in college and our great grandson in law is doing the same: the standard tip ($10 per day) is pooled but anything above and beyond can be kept. On anyother thread three different wait people, working for the cruiselines varified this; one did say, in theory they were to be shared, but it wasn't done if paid in cash. Regalar dining and specialty dining isn't the same by any means. NMnita

[kryos]

From the dawn of time---ok, from the dawn of the service charge/auto tip system---we have been told time and time again that if we leave the $10 pp/pd service charge intact, and give additional in cash, then the recipient is allowed to keep the extra funds.

Of course, I have no way of backing up this statement ... it is merely conjecture on my part ... but I'd be willing to bet that's a load of bunk. Maybe the cruise directors tell people that anything about the auto-tip can be kept by the person receiving it, but I think that's a line they hand out ... at the direction of upper management ... to encourage people to tip more.

 

Just imagine for a moment the paperwork nightmare such a policy would create. The purser's desk would have to figure out who deleted or reduced auto-tips ... and then get that information to the cabin stewards and the waiters so that they would know whether they needed to hand in that cash tip they received or not. And remember that someone could go to the purser's desk on the morning of disembarkation to delete the auto-tip. What if they've already tipped their cabin steward in cash before that point. Also, take the case of your dining room steward. He gets little tip envelopes from everyone at that big table of eight. What happens if someone forgets to put their name and cabin number on the envelope? What if one couple at that table deletes auto-tips? Now, how does he know which envelopes he can keep and which he must turn in?

 

No, a much simpler way to handle this is just to require ALL tips to be turned in. That way there is no mis-understanding and no hard feelings. There would also be little opportunity for dishonesty that would create those hard feelings. If a cabin steward pockets a cash tip, he can't later claim that he thought that tip was his to keep because he thought the occupants of that room paid the required auto-tips. Since ALL tips have to be turned over, he shouldn't be pocketing any of them and thus will be much easier to discipline if he does.

 

So, in this case, I tend to agree with Brian. The cruise lines might tell you these people can keep anything in excess of the auto-tip, but I doubt that is true. It would be a paperwork nightmare to do otherwise.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

I never go to the disembarcation talks, so I don't know what they say there...

(What do they say there?)

The standard "line" they hand passengers at those talks is that anything above and beyond the auto-tip can be kept by the individual you give it to. But, I am sure that's just done to encourage passengers to tip more. After all, if you knew that the extra $50 bucks you gave your cabin steward was only going to go into the pool for everyone to share, would you necessarily bother to give it to him? Wouldn't you just let the $10 auto-tip be sufficient?

 

So, of course, they tell passengers that line. After all, the more people tip extra, the more everyone gets at the end of the week, right? So it's even in your cabin steward or waiter's best interests to tell passengers that.

 

That's why I so much dislike the auto-tip concept. True, it makes life a lot easier for passengers, but only at the expense of losing control over exactly who your tip dollars are going to.

 

Frankly, I'd prefer the auto-tip either be done away with all together, and let people tip as they see fit ... or go to a "service charge" type concept ... maybe a $15 or $20 per day, per passenger ... mandatory service charge ... and then a "no tipping allowed" policy onboard. The service charge would cover EVERYBODY ... bartenders, waitstaff, cabin stewards, etc. ... so there would truly be no additional tipping ... with the exception of perhaps the spa or Club HAL people.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[boards]

How does the cabin steward know, well the last night, he or someone, slipped under our door a thank you card for leaving the auto-tip on. Someone goes to the trouble of letting them know and it looked like it was from the management.

[Jim Gallup]

Well, you all sorta kinda got it right - but not quite.

 

All of the Auto-tip Mass Market Lines have the same OFFICIAL policy:

Yes, the crew is allowed to keep anything above the auto-tip. It's their money to do with what they want. When the Cruise Director tells you that story, it's true.

 

Yes, every morning the Purser sends via email to all Department Heads a list of cabins that have adjusted their auto-tip. Contrary to popular belief, this list is a very short one. On a typical 7-day cruise, there might be a total of 20 or 30 cabins for the entire cruise on that list. And several of those cabins choose to increase rather than decrease the auto-tip. So the book-keeping is not very complicated. As soon as the list is received each day by department heads, they inform the stewards involved.

 

Most - but not all - departments on most - but not all - mass market ships vote to decide what to do with any additional tips they receive. This is strictly up to the crew. It's their money. The cruise line has nothing to do with it. In many - but not all - cases they vote to put the additional tips in the pool. This is strictly an honor system. And I am proud to say that it works very well nearly all of the time. Again, we work as a team. We succeed or fail as a team. This concept doesn't seem to play very well with Americans, so it is generally better not to tell them about it.

 

Finally, once again. No matter how many threads you read it on, or stewards you hear it from: Most stewards who work on ships are pretty intelligent people. They know just what works to pull those heart strings - or even better, those strings attached to youir wallet. They learned many moons ago that most passengers who tip additional money want to be sure that the money goes to their favorite steward - and nobody else. So if that is what you want to hear, they are going to make sure that you hear it.

[peaches from georgia]

Thank you for the official information, Jim. Hopefully that will settle the subject. :rolleyes:

[Jim Gallup]

Peaches,

 

This subject will never be completely settled.

The conspiracy theorists will never allow it.

That reminds me, the cruise line people all know where Hoffa is buried - but we're not telling................

[jtl513]

I am sure the crew does too as they do not have to pay taxes on all they make. NMnita

If they're paying taxes to the U.S. tips must be reported as income too, unless they cheat.

[RuthC]

I always considered myself a very cynical person, but Rita's got me beat all to heck.

Jim's explanation makes a great deal of sense to me, and I do accept it. I fully understand the "team" concept---it was something I nurtured when I supervised an office staff myself.

Any system that motivates employees to keep doing "favors" for each other---with no one keeping track---is something to encourage.

[bepsf]

If they're paying taxes to the U.S. tips must be reported as income too, unless they cheat.

 

Considering that perhaps a very small handfull of crew members are US Citizens, and are in positions that aren't generally a part of the tipping pool - US taxes are pretty much a non-issue.

 

 

 

Thanks for settling our understanding of this situation, Jim.

 

*

[hammybee]

I have no problem whatsoever with the $10. It's who it's going to that bothers me. I don't like the thought that some faceless people, who do NOTHING to assist my server in doing his job, are sharing part of the booty. I'd rather see my servers get that extra $3.00 per day. For example, I have a real "problem" tipping management for doing a management job. That is why I will NEVER tip the Matri 'd ... and would only even consider it if he did me a major, above and beyond the call of his duty, favor for me. Thinking that perhaps some of that $3.00 is going to him ... when he actually probably makes a pretty decent wage ... really torques me. I'd much rather see my dining room and cabin stewards get that money. After all, they are the ones who really have to hustle, who work long hours, and in spite of all that ... always have a smile for me with usually fantastic service.

 

That's why I am beginning to think that HAL should have left well enough alone and let us tip with the envelopes. Then at least you know to whom your tip is going, and can adjust it for those who provided truly outstanding service.

 

Blue skies ...--rita

 

I suspect 99.99% of the cruising public has no idea where the tips go and probably do not care. The CC boards however, attract some posters who talk as if they want to micro-manage the cruise line's business. I don't understand this facination with where the tip goes. I cannot imagine asking a service provider, in any business, what becomes of the tip or how the fee for service I pay, gets allocated to employees. Maybe they arm wrestle for it, after hours. It's none of my business.

 

How can we presume that faceless people do not hustle or work long hours? I prefer clean plates and sheets and that there is not 5 years of dust hanging off the lighting, above the table. Someone, somewhere is taking care of a lot of business, behind the scenes. I also do not presume that because someone has honed the skill of schmoozing, remembering my name, being personable, telling a good story, making me laugh, that he/she is the hardest worker on the ship. What do I know about the nitty-gritty of their workday life. It's none of my business.

 

I do not understand why it is assumed that if the staff person does not have a public face, that he/she is not hustling and working long hours. That there is a system, formal or informal, in place, that encourages behind the scene teamwork, is none of our business. How the job gets done is beyond the scope of a vacation. That it gets done is all that matters.

 

And as we all know, mass market cruise lines went to automatically adding gratuity to ship board accounts and bar bills because too many passengers forgot or preferred to not tip. Now it requires effort to remove them and some passengers probably challenge the automatic gratuities on bar baills too.

 

Some cultures embrace tipping while others do not. Those that do not, load the cost of paying their employees into the fee. Either way, you pay for what you get, or not.

 

If the general public does not see you or understand the contribution to the end result, does not entitle you to reduce the fee you pay for service. That tipping is the method of collection of the fee, encourages a service business to put their best schmoozers out front, not necessarily the hardest workers. That they have a system of allocating the rewards to all who contribute to the end result is simply good management.

[noblepa]

... For example, if you went to your favorite restaurant on land, would you expect your waiter to have to share that nice tip you gave him with the guy who launders the tablecloths, the dishwashers, the manager, the cooks and even maybe the bookkeeper in the back office? No, of course not. Those people receive a salary for doing their jobs.

 

This is not always true. When I was younger, I worked as a busboy and dishwasher in a couple of pretty nice restaurants. While I did receive minimum wage, the waiters were REQUIRED to split their tips with us and the cooks. I don't know if that included the executive chef, but I know that it included the other cooks. I think that the waiters gave up 50% of their tips, which were split among the rest of us.

 

I've spoken with waiters in restaurants that I frequent now. When you are a regular customer, you become friendly with some of the staff. In at least some cases, they are required to split their tips. In a few cases, the tips must be turned in. They are then distributed (exactly how, I don't know) to various individuals. Most importantly, for legal reasaons, the tips are included in the staff's taxable income. The IRS takes a very dim view of people not declaring tips as income.

 

Paul Noble

[kryos]

This is not always true. When I was younger, I worked as a busboy and dishwasher in a couple of pretty nice restaurants. While I did receive minimum wage, the waiters were REQUIRED to split their tips with us and the cooks.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "splitting" tips ... but my experience both from friends who work in restaurants and myself, when I did years ago ... is that a percentage goes to "auxiliary" staff. For example, I had to hand over 10% for the setter (who was also the bus person) and 10% for the hostess. Everything else was mine to keep. Of course, this was not a fancy restaurant, so "everything else" was rarely more than maybe $20/$25 for the shift that went into my pocket.

 

Most of the people I know who work in restaurants today have a "pooled tip" arrangement. Everyone on the shift works together. If someone's food is sitting in the kitchen ready to be served, but they are busy taking an order at another table in their station, any waiter/waitress on duty will pick up that order and deliver it promptly to the table. At the end of the shift, all tips are pooled (most come on credit card anyway) and the booty is divided among all the servers working that particular shift. A percentage comes off the top for "auxiliary" staff ... bus, kitchen helpers, etc. ... but nothing goes to the cook. He is paid handsomely and doesn't get tips. Neither do the managers or shift supervisor (dining room manager).

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

How can we presume that faceless people do not hustle or work long hours? I prefer clean plates and sheets and that there is not 5 years of dust hanging off the lighting, above the table. Someone, somewhere is taking care of a lot of business, behind the scenes.

And that someone should be well compensated for his/her efforts via a normal paycheck.

 

I work in computer operations, and I too hustle and work long hours. I meet and exceed special requests that technically are not part of my job ... rushing someone's reports through the print process and getting them into their hands in record time; handling a "special" project for the telcom department which is totally out of the scope of my job; writing documentation for a new process or procedure not because it's my job, but because the professional documentation writer position was phased out in the last batch of layoffs. So, I do a lot of stuff that is not in my job description, and that technically I could refuse to do. So, why don't I get special bonuses or tips from our various "clients?" Because my job doesn't warrant them.

 

While I make life easier for a lot of our internal clients, I certainly don't get a tip from them ... in fact, I am often lucky to even get a thank you. But, I am fairly (probably what one would consider well) compensated, and that weekly paycheck is all the thanks I need to keep doing my job well.

 

It's the same with these "behind the scenes" people. HAL should be paying them fairly and not relying upon passengers to subsidize their wages. They are in positions which, on land, they would never get tips for. The person who cleans the hallways and common areas of a hotel does not receive tips because his work does not directly impact on a hotel guest. The person who cleans the swimming pool so that the guests can enjoy a clean place to swim does not get a tip from those guests. For this reason, I don't believe that the person on a HAL ship who works in the laundry or the person who cleans the Ocean Bar or mops up in the Lido should not be in the tip pool. The pastry chef, baker and kitchen helper shouldn't be either. Management such as the matri 'd sure as heck shouldn't get a dime in tips. Their salary and benefits package should more than adequately compensate them for a job well done.

 

To me, the tip pool should be for just those people with whom we have direct contact while onboard ship ... our cabin steward and his immediate assistant, and my waiter and his assistant. That's it.

 

I have no problems with tipping and tipping well. But, I don't like the idea that HAL is basically forcing me to spread my hard-earned dollars around to every butcher, baker and candlestick maker onboard ship. For every dollar I give those people, that's a dollar less that the people who most deserve my tip dollars will get. And, that's just not fair.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

I always considered myself a very cynical person, but Rita's got me beat all to heck.

Jim's explanation makes a great deal of sense to me, and I do accept it. I fully understand the "team" concept---it was something I nurtured when I supervised an office staff myself.

Any system that motivates employees to keep doing "favors" for each other---with no one keeping track---is something to encourage.

LOL ... yes, in some respects I am cynical, but in this one it is just a matter of common sense ... at least to me.

 

Just imagine, Ruth, trying to administer a tip policy the way HAL claims it exists. How on earth do you properly police it without relying on the "team" approach?

 

A cabin steward gets cash tips from ten of his cabins. From the other eight he does not. Well, a couple of those eight maybe removed the auto-tip as well. Maybe they are just cheap. So, the cabin steward has nothing from those eight cabins to put into the "kitty."

 

Now, of those ten cabins that gave the steward cash, maybe two have removed auto-tips, while the other eight did not.

 

Now, technically, according to published HAL rules, the cabin steward would be required only to turn in cash tips for the two cabins that removed the auto-tips but gave him cash. But, now wait a minute ... what about those couple of cabins that not only failed to give him cash, but also removed or reduced the auto-tip? How does the steward "compensate" his co-workers for that income? Seems only fair to me that he toss all his cash received into the pot ...

 

Also, how about keeping a cabin steward honest ... and thus keeping employee morale in general high? If there are some tips the steward can keep, but some he has to toss into the "pool," it would be very easy for him to become confused ... or even be just downright dishonest with his co-workers. "Gee, I thought that was mine to keep. That guest told me this was something extra." How can you possibly fire or discipline someone for "cheating" on his contributions to the tip pool if there is a very real possibility that his failure to contribute was truly the result of an honest misunderstanding.

 

No, it's not entirely cynicism on my part. It's simply placing myself in management's shoes and trying to figure out just how the heck I could fairly administer such a policy. The only conclusion I can reach is to just have EVERYTHING go into the pool ... cash as well as auto-tips ... and then divide fairly.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

If the general public does not see you or understand the contribution to the end result, does not entitle you to reduce the fee you pay for service. That tipping is the method of collection of the fee, encourages a service business to put their best schmoozers out front, not necessarily the hardest workers. That they have a system of allocating the rewards to all who contribute to the end result is simply good management.

That type of compensation is not called a tip. It's called a service fee ... or resort fee. Perhaps that is what HAL and other cruise lines should call it as well ... a mandatory per day fee, non-adjustable or removable ... that compensates everyone and spreads the burden evenly among all passengers ... i.e., no one can "get out of it" by having the fee removed from their bills.

 

Then, go to a strict "no tipping allowed" policy onboard ship. The resort fee charge covers everyone ... with the possible exception of the salon people (if you use them) and maybe Club HAL (do you normally tip Club HAL personnel for taking care of your child?)

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita