787 First Flight - Good News for Cruise Passengers

[SelectSys]

After 2 years of delay, Boeing's revolutionary 787 took to the skies for the first. Hopefully this marks the end of the nightmare and the aircraft achieves its "dreamliner" potential.

 

If the 787 lives up to its claimed potential many new city pairs for travel may come into being. Heck even my own home city of San Diego might end up with non-stop service to Europe, Asia and maybe even Latin America. In addition, the aircraft's efficiency will help airlines keep fares in check and even lower green house gas emissions compared to existing comparably sized aircraft.

 

Any advance in air travel is good news for cruise passengers! Congratulations to Boeing and its partners.

 

Boeing site: http://787firstflight.newairplane.com/ffindex.html

[paul929207]

I saw this on the news yesterday. It sure has been a long haul for the 787.

[keltic]

I am sure it´s a milestone in aviation, but I can´t see how the Dreamliner or any other current plane would this improve my flying experience. Probably it will bring fuel reductions on planes, lower emissions, and so on. I am sure we will see nice seats in the virtual images. But I am fully skeptical about the possibility of getting better travelling times (as in terms of speed is not revolutionary), and also I am sure airlines won´t resist piling up seats and seats, which wont necessarily mean lower fares, or better cabin confort.

[SelectSys]

I am sure it´s a milestone in aviation, but I can´t see how the Dreamliner or any other current plane would this improve my flying experience...

 

The biggest change in terms of passenger experience will be an increase in the air pressure at flight level and larger windows. The cabin pressure difference is supposed to reduce fatigue and the larger windows, obviously, provide better views of the ground.

 

You are correct that the travel time, seat pitch and width won't be improved just because of the increased efficiency of the aircraft. The biggest benefits are economic which in a business as competitive as the airlines will passed on at least in part of the passengers.

[pms4104]

The biggest change in terms of passenger experience will be an increase in the air pressure at flight level and larger windows. The cabin pressure difference is supposed to reduce fatigue and the larger windows, obviously, provide better views of the ground.

According to the Chicago Tribune article today, the larger windows will make the cabin feel larger/roomier. I would guess that the side benefit would be a better outward view.

[scottbee]

If the 787 lives up to its claimed potential many new city pairs for travel may come into being. Heck even my own home city of San Diego might end up with non-stop service to Europe, Asia and maybe even Latin America. In addition, the aircraft's efficiency will help airlines keep fares in check and even lower green house gas emissions compared to existing comparably sized aircraft.

 

The short(ish) runway, limitations on hours of operation, higher than normal approach angles, and the proximity of LAX, make SAN a long-shot for European operations. Even the proposed PR flight to MNL was a one-stopper (via YVR) as a fully loaded A340 was beyond the limits of the facility.

[Ashland]

When, where and what airlines will this plane serve ? Also saw it on the news but didn't hear the answer to any of my questions....Thanks for a reply from those that might have ....

[Globaliser]

When, where and what airlines will this plane serve ?

At the current rate, it seems pretty much everyone will have it - see here. It's been the fastest-selling airliner programme for a while, although there have been mutterings about whether it's just been the fastest-selling turkey.

[6rugrats]

At the current rate, it seems pretty much everyone will have it - see here. It's been the fastest-selling airliner programme for a while, although there have been mutterings about whether it's just been the fastest-selling turkey.

 

Thanks for the link. I'm not holding my breath on this one being good news for me; it's always in the news up here and seems to be taking forever.

[SelectSys]

The short(ish) runway, limitations on hours of operation, higher than normal approach angles, and the proximity of LAX, make SAN a long-shot for European operations. Even the proposed PR flight to MNL was a one-stopper (via YVR) as a fully loaded A340 was beyond the limits of the facility.

 

SAN has had non-stop international service in the past to the UK. The last attempt was on failed discounter Zoom Airlines. BA has dabled with SAN in the past with both 777 and 747 service. BA pulled out after 9/11 cut air demand. The original design point of the 787 - thin to medium density long haul routes seems to fit SAN perfectly.

 

When Boeing displayed performance information for the 787 on their site it looked like both European and Asian destinations would be feasible. Even our local airport authority has claimed in the past that the 787 opens up new possiblities for servicw out of SAN. See this link for one reference: http://www.allbusiness.com/transportation/air-transportation-airports/10586059-1.html

 

Like you, I never expect San Diego to be a major international transit point given that it is 80 miles from LAX. My desired scenario would be that ANA and BA decide to provide service to SAN with one of their 787's. Maybe one of the Korean or Chinese (Tiawanese or PRC) carriers might try it as well depending on the plane's in service performance.

[SelectSys]

...although there have been mutterings about whether it's just been the fastest-selling turkey.

 

Who says it is a turkey, Airbus fans?

[Globaliser]

Who says it is a turkey, Airbus fans?

Just people fed up with Boeing's inability (until recently) to actually build the bloody thing.

 

But at least neither Airbus nor Boeing will be making these mistakes again.

[keltic]

The biggest change in terms of passenger experience will be an increase in the air pressure at flight level and larger windows. The cabin pressure difference is supposed to reduce fatigue and the larger windows, obviously, provide better views of the ground.

 

You are correct that the travel time, seat pitch and width won't be improved just because of the increased efficiency of the aircraft. The biggest benefits are economic which in a business as competitive as the airlines will passed on at least in part of the passengers.

 

Well yes, but still unimpressed, as when I went on the A380 last june. The Coach Class wasn´t anything different compared to any other widebody plane. The same Recaro seats, same individual AVOD in many B777 or A340.

 

I was impressed about the Sonnic Cruiser. Unfortunately Boeing didn´t materialize it. It meant bigggg.... big reductions in flying times. I wonder why it has been abandoned the idea of launching a new supersonic plane. I know it´s a question of noise, costs, consumption, and probably because passengers seem to be used to accept the same flying times as in the early age of development of jets.

 

The only plane I was absolutely amazed was the Concorde. I just made a regular flight (no supersonic) but I can´t understand yet, why someone was able to have breakfast in NY and lunch in London. Amazing.

 

I am eager to fly on it, but as someone who loves aviation but hates flying, I don´t know it it will make my flights more enjoyable.

[SelectSys]

Just people fed up with Boeing's inability (until recently) to actually build the bloody thing.

 

But at least neither Airbus nor Boeing will be making these mistakes again.

 

Yes, both Airbus and Boeing have had some real challenges in bringing both of their last two aircraft out. I think Airbus is out of the woods now with the A380 from an engineering and production perspective. Boeing is still in the thick of it. Boeing must think they finally have it under control as they have broken ground on a second line for producing the aircraft.

 

Well yes, but still unimpressed, as when I went on the A380 last june. The Coach Class wasn´t anything different compared to any other widebody plane. The same Recaro seats, same individual AVOD in many B777 or A340.

 

Yes, the passenger experience on the A380 is unchanged

 

I was impressed about the Sonnic Cruiser. Unfortunately Boeing didn´t materialize it. It meant bigggg.... big reductions in flying times. I wonder why it has been abandoned the idea of launching a new supersonic plane. I know it´s a question of noise, costs, consumption, and probably because passengers seem to be used to accept the same flying times as in the early age of development of jets.

 

It is all about the money and what airlines can effectively sell. Boeing couldn't get any airline to commit the Sonic Cruiser and thus no sale. Supersonic aircraft have even bigger hurdles ahead of them. You are right about the Concorde - that was one awesome aircraft. It is sad that the economics are out of the question for the foreseeable future.

[Globaliser]

Well yes, but still unimpressed, as when I went on the A380 last june. The Coach Class wasn´t anything different compared to any other widebody plane. The same Recaro seats, same individual AVOD in many B777 or A340.

Yes, the passenger experience on the A380 is unchanged

I don't agree, actually. The outstanding thing that I noticed - and which many friends (who have no real interest in aviation as such) have said - is that it is amazingly quiet. Even if you get about the same amount of personal space on board, that goes a very long way towards making the travel experience more comfortable.

 

The general hardware (seats, pitch, IFE) will always be pretty much the same in economy class in whatever aircraft. But other little things can make a big difference.

I think Airbus is out of the woods now with the A380 from an engineering and production perspective.

Actually, not really. Airbus is still having quite a few production problems, and has had to defer deliveries of many of this year's aircraft as a result. It's just not been particularly high-profile news because the customer airlines have generally been quite happy to defer deliveries for the few months or so that have been needed, given the state of the industry.

[keltic]

Engines were indeed really quiet. I was in the Upper Deck, so the dimensions should be similar to any A340. Flying was a regular experience, with slight to moderate turbulences occasionally, and a hard landing in SIA. I noticed that take off was really long. I probably had higher expectations.

[scottbee]

SAN has had non-stop international service in the past to the UK. The last attempt was on failed discounter Zoom Airlines. BA has dabled with SAN in the past with both 777 and 747 service. BA pulled out after 9/11 cut air demand. The original design point of the 787 - thin to medium density long haul routes seems to fit SAN perfectly.

 

The 787 is merely a 767 replacement, with even more range. The ultra-long range wouldn't be required on a SAN-LHR routing, and that makes a 787 and 767 pretty much the same thing. If they're not flying 767-300ERs on the route now, they probably wont fly 787s in the future.

[Globaliser]

I noticed that take off was really long.

That's quite common on the Airbus widebodies. A common feature of Airbus wing design is that the wings are very efficient at low speeds, so takeoff speeds tend to be lower than you would normally expect. So you need to apply less power during the takeoff roll, and it feels like the aircraft is just gently ambling along the runway forever before rotation. The most pronounced examples are the 342s and 343s, which are often said (in jest) to be powered by four hairdryers, and to gain altitude only because of the curvature of the Earth.

[SelectSys]

The 787 is merely a 767 replacement, with even more range... If they're not flying 767-300ERs on the route now, they probably wont fly 787s in the future.

 

Not exactly, the aircraft does have increased performance allowing it to carrier more payload or less fuel to achieve the same effect. A 20% reduction in operational costs over the 767 (fuel and maintenance) might make a difference. Asian cities are now in range, which from an economic relationship point of view, is even more important.

 

Some in our area believe that a replacement SAN could be a major airport. I do not believe this and voted against relocating the airport. I do believe that a few flights to Asia and Europe may be practical in the future.

 

...The most pronounced examples are the 342s and 343s, which are often said (in jest) to be powered by four hairdryers, ...

 

However, those "hairdryers" provide for a nice passenger experience in terms of a quiet cabin. A340 series aircraft are one of my favorites.

[chipmaster]

After 2 years of delay, Boeing's revolutionary 787 took to the skies for the first. Hopefully this marks the end of the nightmare and the aircraft achieves its "dreamliner" potential.

 

If the 787 lives up to its claimed potential many new city pairs for travel may come into being. Heck even my own home city of San Diego might end up with non-stop service to Europe, Asia and maybe even Latin America. In addition, the aircraft's efficiency will help airlines keep fares in check and even lower green house gas emissions compared to existing comparably sized aircraft.

 

Any advance in air travel is good news for cruise passengers! Congratulations to Boeing and its partners.

 

Boeing site: http://787firstflight.newairplane.com/ffindex.html

 

Nothing is more challenging then trying to bring new materials into production. And EVERYTHING that is being made about this airplane is NEW. Don't get me wrong, new has huge advantages and why this model presold well. It'll be really really interesting to watch them do the stress testing. I've seen enough of new materials to hope Boeing materials/reliability got their act togather. If I had my choice I really don't know if I'd want to be on the first flight or the 10,000 takeoff for one of these babies, just look at the latest learnings on icing on the airbus in the past year :eek:

[SelectSys]

... just look at the latest learnings on icing on the airbus in the past year :eek:

 

What is that? I haven't heard anything specific or course I haven't really looked either.

 

The one thing that did surprise me seeing the 787 photos/videos was the degree of wing flex. Apparently the wing, being made from composites, has much more flex than a traditional metal aircraft wing.

 

Here is one video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fucq5BoEfEI

[Globaliser]

Nothing is more challenging then trying to bring new materials into production. And EVERYTHING that is being made about this airplane is NEW.

Don't fall for the hype. It's "new-ish" being done on a bigger scale than before, but not "new" as such. The A380 has lots of this stuff, too.

 

"New" wasn't really the problem with the 787. The problem was that Boeing set up an extraordinarily complex industrial chain, with too many weak links in the form of non-performing suppliers, and then mixed in a healthy dose of hubris.

... just look at the latest learnings on icing on the airbus in the past year

:confused: from me too.

 

If you're talking about pitot icing, there's nothing new about that either.

[SelectSys]

Apparently a bit of mechanical trouble on the nose gear. Good to see another flight of the 787 before the end of the year.

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2010568452_secondflight23.html

[FlyerTalker]

Well yes, but still unimpressed, as when I went on the A380 last june. The Coach Class wasn´t anything different compared to any other widebody plane. The same Recaro seats, same individual AVOD in many B777 or A340.

On the other hand....first class on Emirates brings a whole new dimension with the A380. See HERE for photos and info (but bring a bib to contain the drooling).

 

I'm all for the shower spa and the private suites....as soon as I hit the lottery for eight figures.;)

[keltic]

I am sure of that. I just could a have a glimpse while I was gently addressed to Coach Class.

 

Lottery was here yesterday. I had ordered a customized Global Express, but I am affraid I have to cancel the order. Anyone, all airlines have stunning first classes. It´s quite intriguing to know what´s like taking off looking backwards as in BA Club World, or in a funny seat arrangement as in VS Upper Class.