Smoking ?

[Jaffa]

I could not agree with you more linkslady!

 

I have no problem with anything you said.

 

But in lieu of such a place Seabourn has dedicated the Observation lounge.

I also think its a great place.

 

Like most things, life is not perfect.

 

I am glad there is only one internal space that l have to keep clear of. It could be a lot worse.

 

And as a result of there being only one, l don't feel to bad about it. Because l have all the rest to enjoy and l do.

 

l will not begrudge smokers their one internal sanctuary.

I am a reasonable man.

 

If we do deny them a space, my worry is many more will break the rules where they please and it will become a bigger issue to many more passengers and much more difficult for the crew to police.

 

And yes l find what you propose very reasonable.

I do enjoy Silversea for that very reason.

 

Cheers,

[MARIANH]

I could not agree with you more linkslady!

 

I have no problem with anything you said.

 

But in lieu of such a place Seabourn has dedicated the Observation lounge.

I also think its a great place.

 

Like most things, life is not perfect.

 

I am glad there is only one internal space that l have to keep clear of. It could be a lot worse.

 

And as a result of there being only one, l don't feel to bad about it. Because l have all the rest to enjoy and l do.

 

l will not begrudge smokers their one internal sanctuary.

I am a reasonable man.

 

If we do deny them a space, my worry is many more will break the rules where they please and it will become a bigger issue to many more passengers and much more difficult for the crew to police.

 

And yes l find what you propose very reasonable.

I do enjoy Silversea for that very reason.

 

Cheers,

 

Thankyou for your contributions to this ongoing debate.

 

 

I am pleased that you support the suggestion for a dedicated room for smokers, as is such a great feature on some other lines. It offers smokers the opportunity to exercise their rights in convivial surroundings amongst like minded fellow cruisers. Without damaging others. Perhaps you may wish to factor this into your letter to Seattle.

 

If I may, I would just like to give another perspective on some of the points in your main post as follows.

 

"..... do not accept that 95% of smoke free public space is adequate..." In my view that is not the relevant statistic in the context of the debate about smoking in public enclosed spaces. What smokers have is one main bar out of only two on the ships. So the very small minority of smokers are disproportunately well provided.

 

" ...... they still put themselves in harms way .." - Of course passengers have a choice. Not so the crew servicing the Panorama Lounge and the entertainers therein.

 

"...the abuse of alcohol which to me is a much bigger problem.." -Never found this to be the case on any of the ships that I have sailed in . Please remember there is no evidence that secondary alcohol damages health. The worst that is likely to happen is you will get wet. Unpleasant but not life threatening. However, there is plenty of evidence that secondary smoke damages health and can be a killer.

 

 

Regards

[Roxburgh]

Thankyou for your contributions to this ongoing debate.

 

 

I am pleased that you support the suggestion for a dedicated room for smokers, as is such a great feature on some other lines. It offers smokers the opportunity to exercise their rights in convivial surroundings amongst like minded fellow cruisers. Without damaging others. Perhaps you may wish to factor this into your letter to Seattle.

 

If I may, I would just like to give another perspective on some of the points in your main post as follows.

 

"..... do not accept that 95% of smoke free public space is adequate..." In my view that is not the relevant statistic in the context of the debate about smoking in public enclosed spaces. What smokers have is one main bar out of only two on the ships. So the very small minority of smokers are disproportunately well provided.

 

" ...... they still put themselves in harms way .." - Of course passengers have a choice. Not so the crew servicing the Panorama Lounge and the entertainers therein.

 

"...the abuse of alcohol which to me is a much bigger problem.." -Never found this to be the case on any of the ships that I have sailed in . Please remember there is no evidence that secondary alcohol damages health. The worst that is likely to happen is you will get wet. Unpleasant but not life threatening. However, there is plenty of evidence that secondary smoke damages health and can be a killer.

 

 

Regards

 

On the larger ships there are four bars. Smokers have one side of the Observation Lounge and an area on one side of the Sky Bar. I think that access to 50% of the bars is extremely generous given the typically small number of smokers.

[wripro]

The problem is that they have taken the most beautiful space on the ship with the best views and deprived nonsmokers of its use. I would much prefer if they took part of the Club, perhaps the raised section near the bar, and gave that to smokers. They could even enclose it with glass as on the triplets to keep smoke from drifting too much. The Club on the large ships is a much less inviting space to begin with.

[MARIANH]

It is perhaps cynical and certainly sad to have to conclude that decisions about Smoking Policy by Seabourn and some other cruise lines appear to be driven by pragmatism. Altruism does not feature at all. That is, it is all about the bottom line -which in turn requires ships to be as full as possible. Unless and until passenger numbers fall because of smoking issues, I guess realistically we cannot expect movement from Seabourn, no matter what the level of expressed disquiet.

 

But that is no reason to stop bringing the issue to Seabourn's attention nor continuing to exchange views on Cruise Critic boards.

 

Experience elsewhere seems to suggest that restrictive smoking policies are almost universally supported by customers and drive up sales ( but not of cigarettes!). However this may not matter to Seabourn or some other cruise lines if they can still fill their ships.

 

Apart from decreased sales, what else could be drivers for change? Well, in other fields (eg manufacturing industry) legislation , litigation and perhaps peer pressure have been strong motivators. Does anyone see any of these factors ever bearing on the cruise industry?

[Emperor Norton]

I wonder how keen smokers would be to share space with some yahoo letting off bug bombs. That stuff likely won't kill you (quickly), and gosh darn it if the smokers don't like it they can leave the room, even if it does offer the best views.

 

Let's compare toxins to toxins and see how people feel.

 

/also curious why anyone would want 5% or so of their guests to drive out the other 95% but maybe my math is off

[seabournaddict]

so if the Observation Lounges are the best areas for smokers according to Jaffa, where on a miserable, or extremely hot day, do the non smokers sit to relax and enjoy the view? (I am only talking about on the small ships) They have the choice of their suites, a very dark Show Lounge with no views, or The Club......while a very small number of guests have the best room on the ship? Dont think that argument works.

[hoosier74]

First my disclaimers.

Neither my husband or I smoke. I have asthma and cannot comfortably be around smoking whether inside or out.

Secondly I have not been on the larger ships.

 

The prior posters are correct in their assertions that Seabourn has provided an indoor location for smokers and that is the Observation Lounge. I would venture that most posters here have more of an issue with the Seabourn smoking policy than with those who actually smoke as we all know that people will basically do what they are allowed to do. Dividing a room with part for smokers, part for non smokers has never been an effective solution.

 

But just for comparison purposes, Regent, which has a much more restrictive smoking policy than Seabourn, has a dedicated smoking indoor space, primarily for cigars called the Connoisseur Club. I would guess from the deck plans and from memory that it is about 300-400 sq. ft. on the Mariner which can carry 700 passengers. The Observation Lounge appears to be approximately 1000 sq ft on the small sisters (208 passengers) and 2000 sq ft. on the larger ships (450 passengers). This seems to be a overly generous allocation of space for Seabourn to give over to smokers.

[MARIANH]

First my disclaimers.

Neither my husband or I smoke. I have asthma and cannot comfortably be around smoking whether inside or out.

Secondly I have not been on the larger ships.

 

The prior posters are correct in their assertions that Seabourn has provided an indoor location for smokers and that is the Observation Lounge. I would venture that most posters here have more of an issue with the Seabourn smoking policy than with those who actually smoke as we all know that people will basically do what they are allowed to do. Dividing a room with part for smokers, part for non smokers has never been an effective solution.

 

But just for comparison purposes, Regent, which has a much more restrictive smoking policy than Seabourn, has a dedicated smoking indoor space, primarily for cigars called the Connoisseur Club. I would guess from the deck plans and from memory that it is about 300-400 sq. ft. on the Mariner which can carry 700 passengers. The Observation Lounge appears to be approximately 1000 sq ft on the small sisters (208 passengers) and 2000 sq ft. on the larger ships (450 passengers). This seems to be a overly generous allocation of space for Seabourn to give over to smokers.

 

On these figures it would appear Seabourn is at least approx 10x more generous in their provision for the very few ( 5% or less?) smokers. Furthemore the number of smokers rarely exceeds five in the Observation Lounge, in my experience. But sadly there has never been fewer than one. And of course it only takes one to make the delightful space a no go area for many guests. Overly generous provision? Some would say generous in the extreme.Surely it could not be that for some inexplicable reason smokers are much more highly valued than the hoi poloi. Any theories why this could be the case?

[Erex]

5% of the guests on Seabourn are smokers?

I have never been on Seabourn (Boarding tomorrow), but I cannot imagine that the number of smokers would be so low.

As far as I know 25% of US are smokers, in most european countries it is much higher, some places it is closer to 50%.

 

It is also the case that the number of smokers goes down with higher education, but I still do not think it is only 5%

 

Cheers, Atle

[seabournaddict]

there usually isnt a huge amount of smokers on Seabourn UNLESS you happen to do a TA Crossing. Thats where they seem to come out of the woodwork, In my experience it seems to be younger people smoking these days, of course we know they are bullet proof and it will never effect them! Most "older" people who were smokers have had the sense to quit. (I am one of them) If the stats say "25% of the US smokes" I would guess that would be the young. Not those who sail Seabourn

[Roxburgh]

5% of the guests on Seabourn are smokers?

I have never been on Seabourn (Boarding tomorrow), but I cannot imagine that the number of smokers would be so low.

As far as I know 25% of US are smokers, in most european countries it is much higher, some places it is closer to 50%.

 

It is also the case that the number of smokers goes down with higher education, but I still do not think it is only 5%

 

Cheers, Atle

 

Atle .... on my recent cruise I would 'guesstimate' that between 5% and 10% of cruisers were smokers. Most of those were European (mainly German).

 

In the USA, incidence of smoking seems to peak in a persons 20s and starts dropping off after age 50 (maybe they die :eek: ).

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/128183/smoking-age-baby-boomer-bulge.aspx

 

With regard to the impact of education on smoking. In the USA, only 11.1% with an undergraduate degree and only 5.6% of those who have a graduate degree are smokers.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5935a3.htm

 

The age and education factors might explain to some extent why such a small number of Seabourn cruisers are smokers.

 

Please note that I am not in favor of banning smoking. My problem on my recent cruise was with smoking on the Veranda next door to us - that proximity was just too close - and with cigar and pipe smoking. There were other locations where cigarette smoking never seemed to be a problem (deck 9 and deck 5).

 

If people want to smoke then I am fine with that just so long as I do not have to share their smoke or the smell of pipe and cigars.

[lincslady]

5% of the guests on Seabourn are smokers?

I have never been on Seabourn (Boarding tomorrow), but I cannot imagine that the number of smokers would be so low.

As far as I know 25% of US are smokers, in most european countries it is much higher, some places it is closer to 50%.

 

It is also the case that the number of smokers goes down with higher education, but I still do not think it is only 5%

 

Cheers, Atle

 

I can assure you that on some 12 Seabourn cruises we have never encountered more than, at an educated guess, 6 to 8 smokers on board, normally only one or two. They do usually obey the rules, though just occasionally one encounters someone who obviously takes pleasure in sitting as near as possible to the non-smokers and blowing smoke over them. (Very uncommon, luckily).

 

Regarding heavy drinkers, the worst we have come across is one noisy party on one cruise, who did get a strong message from the Hotel Manager, and the odd old soul who sat drinking all day long and liked to talk in a rambling way, and most people spent a few minutes with him to be kind!

 

Do let us know on your return what you find, regarding smoking on board. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised (assuming you do not smoke.):)

[Erex]

Roxburgh, thanks for the information. I was not aware of that particular spread of smokers in the US population.

 

lincslady, I am a smoker, and with Seaborn's smoking policy I don't think I will have a problem ;)

 

Currently you are allowed to smoke in suite, on balcony, at skybar and at Observation longe (at least that is my undertanding)

I cannot understand people having problems with the skybar or in suite.

For the Observation Lounge, can understand people having problems if the ventilation is not good.

For the balcony I can understand that people closest to a smoking balcony can smell the smoke. But since it is currently allowed, I think it is a matter of give and take.

When smoking on the balony, the smoke should disappear very fast when the ship is moving. And smoking a cigarette takes about 5-7 minutes. That is 5-7 minutes a non smoker can go inside.

There are some chain smokers, but they will still not normally do 10 cigarettes an hour.

There are also a lot of smokers that do not even think that this can be a problem and all that is needed, is for someone to ask them to maybe slow down their smoking.

But I must also say that if am smoking on my balcony after for example checking to see if y neighbours balcony behind me was empty and someone came out while I am smoking and was throwing a fit, I would camly explain to him/her that I am allowed to smoke on the balcony and that there were nobody around when I started and ask him/her to close the door until I was finished.

 

Cheers, Atle (who woke up 4:30 today and was sitting outside the hotel with a smoke and a coffee at 5 watching the rain. Soon time for breakfast, then some shopping, checking out and boarding)

PS. Post was edited due to me not used to post from a tablet and hit the submit before finishig

[lincslady]

You are quite right, Atle, you will not have a problem.

[Sweetpea711423]

Atle .... on my recent cruise I would 'guesstimate' that between 5% and 10% of cruisers were smokers. Most of those were European (mainly German).

 

In the USA, incidence of smoking seems to peak in a persons 20s and starts dropping off after age 50 (maybe they die :eek: ).

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/128183/smoking-age-baby-boomer-bulge.aspx

 

With regard to the impact of education on smoking. In the USA, only 11.1% with an undergraduate degree and only 5.6% of those who have a graduate degree are smokers.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5935a3.htm

 

The age and education factors might explain to some extent why such a small number of Seabourn cruisers are smokers.

 

Please note that I am not in favor of banning smoking. My problem on my recent cruise was with smoking on the Veranda next door to us - that proximity was just too close - and with cigar and pipe smoking. There were other locations where cigarette smoking never seemed to be a problem (deck 9 and deck 5).

 

If people want to smoke then I am fine with that just so long as I do not have to share their smoke or the smell of pipe and cigars.

 

 

With respect to age and education level, my husband and I are both in our early 60's and have graduate degrees (we both have JDs and are attorneys). For my husband, smoking is an important part of his daily relaxation. We enjoy our time luxury cruising, but will not go on a line that restricts this part of his daily pleasure.

[markham]

Sweatpea,

 

So what cruise line will you and your smoking husband be joining next?

 

Smoking restrictions are a way of life on land and on many cruise lines but I hope that you can make adjustments in the pursuit of your daily pleasure e.g. smoke in designated areas only and thereby not endanger the health of others.

 

Happy sailing!

[MARIANH]

With respect to age and education level, my husband and I are both in our early 60's and have graduate degrees (we both have JDs and are attorneys). For my husband, smoking is an important part of his daily relaxation. We enjoy our time luxury cruising, but will not go on a line that restricts this part of his daily pleasure.

 

Being so well educated and an Attorney to boot, I am sure you are more familiar than many of the need to exercise ones rights with due regard to ones responsibility to others. A tenet that runs through the fabric of most civilised societies and is oft enshrined in legislation.

 

This means for example that although smoking is " allowed" in the Observation Lounge, in considering exercising ones " right" to smoke there, one should also consider the effects on others. Given that there is no question that second hand smoke in contained areas can seriously damage the health of those exposed, one would have thought that no one would smoke in the Lounge. But they do. And how come? Is it ignorance, malevolance, a touch of shadenfreude or what? "I smoke because I can", surely can't be the answer

 

I admit to being constantly amazed that otherwise apparently pleasant, well educated and sociable people can be so inconsiderate to their fellow passengers. I do wish someone from the smoking fraternity would try to justify their antisocial and indeed dangerous behaviour as in the Observation Lounge. Heaven forbid that the pleasures of nicotine completely overide natural feelings of responsibility and humanity. Believe me, I know those pleasures well from my smoking days when it was de rigueur and the risks were unknown or denied.

 

Anyone have the answer to this conundrum?

 

And I am guessing and indeed hoping Sweetpea that your DH is considerate when enjoying smoking during his no doubt well deserved relaxation time.

 

And hoping further that Seabourn will see the light and provide a first class inside smoking area where smokers are free to enjoy themselves without impacting on the majority of non smokers. A smoking room as provided by other quality cruise lines would be just the ticket. Come on Seabourn - please, please.

[Focused1]

Being so well educated and an Attorney to boot, I am sure you are more familiar than many of the need to exercise ones rights with due regard to ones responsibility to others. A tenet that runs through the fabric of most civilised societies and is oft enshrined in legislation.

 

This means for example that although smoking is " allowed" in the Observation Lounge, in considering exercising ones " right" to smoke there, one should also consider the effects on others. Given that there is no question that second hand smoke in contained areas can seriously damage the health of those exposed, one would have thought that no one would smoke in the Lounge. But they do. And how come? Is it ignorance, malevolance, a touch of shadenfreude or what? "I smoke because I can", surely can't be the answer

 

I admit to being constantly amazed that otherwise apparently pleasant, well educated and sociable people can be so inconsiderate to their fellow passengers. I do wish someone from the smoking fraternity would try to justify their antisocial and indeed dangerous behaviour as in the Observation Lounge. Heaven forbid that the pleasures of nicotine completely overide natural feelings of responsibility and humanity. Believe me, I know those pleasures well from my smoking days when it was de rigueur and the risks were unknown or denied.

 

Anyone have the answer to this conundrum?

 

And I am guessing and indeed hoping Sweetpea that your DH is considerate when enjoying smoking during his no doubt well deserved relaxation time.

 

And hoping further that Seabourn will see the light and provide a first class inside smoking area where smokers are free to enjoy themselves without impacting on the majority of non smokers. A smoking room as provided by other quality cruise lines would be just the ticket. Come on Seabourn - please, please.

 

You said it so well, MarianH!! Totally agree in hoping Seabourn provides a separate venue. I am also amazed, as you say, that apparently pleasant, well-educated and sociable people can be so inconsiderate to their fellow passengers in exercising ones "rights." But I am further amazed that such well-educated individuals still seem to deny the deleterious effects of smoking. As a medical professional, I have presided over the demise of many smokers over the years and believe me, it is far from pleasurable.

 

I hope I have the opportunity to meet you on the Quest next month.

[JaneBP]

>"But I am further amazed that such well-educated individuals still seem to deny the deleterious effects of smoking."

 

Who said they were denying anything?

[Focused1]

>"But I am further amazed that such well-educated individuals still seem to deny the deleterious effects of smoking."

 

Who said they were denying anything?

 

Oh, come on. I mean implicitly denied by actions.

[JaneBP]

Oh, come on. I mean implicitly denied by actions.

 

I know what you meant. Obviously.

[MARIANH]

You said it so well, MarianH!! Totally agree in hoping Seabourn provides a separate venue. I am also amazed, as you say, that apparently pleasant, well-educated and sociable people can be so inconsiderate to their fellow passengers in exercising ones "rights." But I am further amazed that such well-educated individuals still seem to deny the deleterious effects of smoking. As a medical professional, I have presided over the demise of many smokers over the years and believe me, it is far from pleasurable.

 

I hope I have the opportunity to meet you on the Quest next month.

 

Likewise!

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could meet in the Observation Lounge where we could enjoy the delightful surroundings, superb ambience and a healthy, smoke free environment. One lives in hope:rolleyes:

[fairbourne]

Being so well educated and an Attorney to boot, I am sure you are more familiar than many of the need to exercise ones rights with due regard to ones responsibility to others. A tenet that runs through the fabric of most civilised societies and is oft enshrined in legislation.

 

This means for example that although smoking is " allowed" in the Observation Lounge, in considering exercising ones " right" to smoke there, one should also consider the effects on others. Given that there is no question that second hand smoke in contained areas can seriously damage the health of those exposed, one would have thought that no one would smoke in the Lounge. But they do. And how come? Is it ignorance, malevolance, a touch of shadenfreude or what? "I smoke because I can", surely can't be the answer

 

I admit to being constantly amazed that otherwise apparently pleasant, well educated and sociable people can be so inconsiderate to their fellow passengers. I do wish someone from the smoking fraternity would try to justify their antisocial and indeed dangerous behaviour as in the Observation Lounge. Heaven forbid that the pleasures of nicotine completely overide natural feelings of responsibility and humanity. Believe me, I know those pleasures well from my smoking days when it was de rigueur and the risks were unknown or denied.

 

Anyone have the answer to this conundrum?

 

And I am guessing and indeed hoping Sweetpea that your DH is considerate when enjoying smoking during his no doubt well deserved relaxation time.

 

And hoping further that Seabourn will see the light and provide a first class inside smoking area where smokers are free to enjoy themselves without impacting on the majority of non smokers. A smoking room as provided by other quality cruise lines would be just the ticket. Come on Seabourn - please, please.

 

Extremely well said MarianH. I expect you heard the latest news on the BBC News regarding the impact of introducing no-smoking into bars etc. in the UK. In only 5 years the ban has amongst other reductions (fewer young women smoking therefore less premature babies) drastically reduced the effects of passive smoking which is exactly what we are talking about here. But sadly and disappointingly smoking continues to be the highest avoidable cause of cancer.

 

So we'll huff and they'll puff, but to call it a daily pleasure, really? - how can it be so when it kills you???

 

And for those who say we can just avoid the smoking areas - well we do but in making a room smoking allowed - at certain times - is just downright daft, as it will always be a smoking room.

 

So please Seabourn provide the puffers with their own room. It really is time you sat up and took notice!

[MARIANH]

Extremely well said MarianH. I expect you heard the latest news on the BBC News regarding the impact of introducing no-smoking into bars etc. in the UK. In only 5 years the ban has amongst other reductions (fewer young women smoking therefore less premature babies) drastically reduced the effects of passive smoking which is exactly what we are talking about here. But sadly and disappointingly smoking continues to be the highest avoidable cause of cancer.

 

So we'll huff and they'll puff, but to call it a daily pleasure, really? - how can it be so when it kills you???

 

And for those who say we can just avoid the smoking areas - well we do but in making a room smoking allowed - at certain times - is just downright daft, as it will always be a smoking room.

 

So please Seabourn provide the puffers with their own room. It really is time you sat up and took notice!

 

Fairbourne -whereas we always seem to be on the same page about issues Seabourn, we may just be slightly divergent when it comes to questioning a smoker's choice to indulgence his/her " daily pleasure".

 

For me it is all a matter of freedoms and personal choice. I would defend to the last a smokers "right" to kill him/her self. And resist with all the strength I can muster the assumption that he/she has a "right" kill me through his/her indulgence.

 

The sheer arrogance of some smokers in the Observation Lounge is mindboggling (IMHO). It appears to me be along the lines - "OK, so I have a smoking gun and I know it can cause harm ; but I do have a licence to use it. So I will. And if you get hurt, it's your fault for not getting out of the way - not mine". As someone recently pithily descibed it, the " sex and travel" attitude.

 

But there again I could be completely wrong and perhaps we will never know for certain unless / until a hard core smoker or two is kind enough to share with a wider community the rationale for their behaviour in the Observation Lounge. Any takers?

 

Happy to eat crow if my speculation is incorrect. Preferably Seabourn crow, which like all the food on board would no doubt be delicious.