Why Does HAL Hate NYC?

[HamOp]

Once again at the end of Aug. we will find NYC with out a HAL ship to call its own.

 

I don't understand how Holland America can pull the plug on an area with such a large population draw. Not only people from the metro area, but all of New England and to some extent the mid-Atlantic states and beyond.

 

Does it really require a large ship to make money sailing out of New York?

 

HAL leaves just as NCL is about to park the 4000 passenger Breakaway in Gotham.

 

I'm sure the bean counters have this all figured out, but I sure don't get it.

 

I know this has been brought up here before, but I guess I just need to vent.

[sail7seas]

HAL tried when the beautiful Noordam was a brand new ship and it seems they didn't make money even with that gorgeous ship.

 

People didn't like the pricing and demanded lower; they didn't spend very much on board; it cost a lot of fuel to cruise down the coast to warm weather and HAL is in the business of turning a profit.

 

If they made money, if the region was willing to pay enough to support the ship, they'd have one there. IMO

They tried.

 

DH and I traveled from Boston to NYC to sail Noordam while she still did the ten and eleven day cruises to Caribbean and back and we had a wonderful time. We had fabulous weather and smooth sailing but that did not always happen.

 

 

[SwissMyst]

"Hate"? :confused:

[mollyanne]

We would support a ship out of NY to the Caribbean - having done Princess a few times in and out of Brooklyn. Instead we have to fly into FLL for the pleasure of sailing HAL. Husband will not go to Bermuda - having spent enough time there in his Navy years. Same for New England.:(

[jtl513]

I'd bet that if Bermuda would allow HAL to have the casino and shops open while in port, a HAL ship would be doing the run next year. Other ships from NYC to Bermuda don't stay docked for 43% of the cruise and don't have that loss of income. If HAL sailed slowly and spent just one night docked like others do, could they compete on price with the large ships and draw enough passengers? I doubt it.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I'd bet that if Bermuda would allow HAL to have the casino and shops open while in port, a HAL ship would be doing the run next year. Other ships from NYC to Bermuda don't stay docked for 43% of the cruise and don't have that loss of income. If HAL sailed slowly and spent just one night docked like others do, could they compete on price with the large ships and draw enough passengers? I doubt it.

 

I think you're right. The claim is that the loss of casino and shop time reduces profits. But does HAL really make much money on the casino? I recall it being pretty quiet in there on our HAL cruises. Or maybe the action picks up later at night? We don'' stay up late on cruises if they're as port-intensive as our HAL cruises have been.

 

Do the large ships dock for just one night on a one-week cruise? I thought it was two nights.

[innlady1]

I'd bet that if Bermuda would allow HAL to have the casino and shops open while in port, a HAL ship would be doing the run next year. Other ships from NYC to Bermuda don't stay docked for 43% of the cruise and don't have that loss of income. If HAL sailed slowly and spent just one night docked like others do, could they compete on price with the large ships and draw enough passengers? I doubt it.

 

HAL docked the Veendam for 3 nights (Tuesday, Wednesday, & Thursday); the Summit and NCL for 2 nights (Wednesday & Thursday). That saves a huge amount in dockage fees. I believe if HAL did that, docking in Hamilton, they could compete with the larger ships. Hamilton is the draw. Being allowed to keep the casino open would help tremendously, too.

[blue whale]

If HAL ran the Noordam out of NYC to the Caribbean, we would sign up asap! We wish they would try it again!

[innlady1]

If HAL ran the Noordam out of NYC to the Caribbean, we would sign up asap! We wish they would try it again!

 

So would we...we did it twice...'07 and '08 and loved it! Did the Veendam this May and loved that cruise as well. It seems their "bean counters" are missing the mark somehow on this market.

The other cruise lines do well...why can't HAL? :eek:

[sail7seas]

If HAL ran the Noordam out of NYC to the Caribbean, we would sign up asap! We wish they would try it again!

 

 

HAL did that.

They sailed Noordam from NYC in 2006 and 2007.

Not enough cruisers from the NY region/area were willing to pay a decent enough fare to support the high cost of sailing from NYC to the Caribbean and back in the fall/winter.

 

Everyone now says they'd pay, they'd book.......

 

HAL tried.

I'd LOVE to see them do it again but I wouldn't count on it.

If it had been successful, they would not have pulled the ship to homeport in FLL.

 

I believe they truly wanted to have a HAL ship homeported in NYC.

 

 

[canadarocks]

One of the main reasons I booked the Eurodam for our September cruise is because she departs from NYC. I'm just as excited for our pre-cruise stay there as I am about the cruise itself! And I cannot wait to set sail and see all the sites as we leave. Now I realize just how lucky we are, as there are so very few cruises out of New York.

[mamaofami]

Sail, does that mean the Noordam went out not at full capacity? I would think people would spend the same amount of money on board whether they sailed from NY or FFL. What would make them change their spending habits?

 

I loved that cruise on Noordam out of NY. So easy.

[sail7seas]

I think she mostly sailed full but at what per diem for so many cabins?

There were way too many too low fares and from all I read, it seems there was way too little on board spending.

 

Cruise lines do not necessarily make most of their money from cabin fares but do seriously depend upon on board revenue. Seems there too many folks who were unwilling to do any spending at all.

 

The cost of fuel to make that trip up and down the coast to and from cold/warm weather was very high. Fuel costs are lower with the FLL embark/debark.

 

It's only common sense.

If HAL was making good money sailing NYC to Caribbean and back they probably would still be doing it.

 

 

Maybe it is a different demographic sailing with so many from NY, NJ, New England vs the very mixed crowd that sails from FLL? I don't know; just musing. Maybe the mixture of majority of folks from all over vs majority from NE region might be better spenders? :D I don't know.

 

 

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

If HAL had trouble filling a ship to the Caribbean from NYC, I think it's because people look at an itinerary with sea days vs. other itineraries (our of FL) where there are fewer sea days, and choose the itinerary with more ports. During the winter, the first and last sea days on a NYC-Carib cruise will be cold.

 

I don't mind the extra sea days, even if it's cold for some of them. I love sea days! But I think a lot of cruisers see them as wasted days and want to be on island time right away, even if it means they have to fly to the ship.

[Sea42]

If HAL had trouble filling a ship to the Caribbean from NYC, I think it's because people look at an itinerary with sea days vs. other itineraries (our of FL) where there are fewer sea days, and choose the itinerary with more ports. During the winter, the first and last sea days on a NYC-Carib cruise will be cold.

 

I don't mind the extra sea days, even if it's cold for some of them. I love sea days! But I think a lot of cruisers see them as wasted days and want to be on island time right away, even if it means they have to fly to the ship.

 

Yes, that would definitely be a consideration for us. Our winter vacations are just that. An escape from winter. I would never consider a winter cruise out of a cold weather port. I didn't even really enjoy sailing out of FLL. I would much rather sail out of San Juan. Why waste my time somewhere cold? As I have to fly to any of the embarkation ports, why not just stay on the plane another couple hours and be somewhere warm?

[PathfinderEss]

Once again at the end of Aug. we will find NYC with out a HAL ship to call its own.

 

I don't understand how Holland America can pull the plug on an area with such a large population draw. Not only people from the metro area, but all of New England and to some extent the mid-Atlantic states and beyond.

 

Does it really require a large ship to make money sailing out of New York?

 

HAL leaves just as NCL is about to park the 4000 passenger Breakaway in Gotham.

 

I'm sure the bean counters have this all figured out, but I sure don't get it.

 

I know this has been brought up here before, but I guess I just need to vent.

Well move over, Hal doesn't like California any better then NY. Astronomical gas price's charge to Holland to run jet fuel out so many miles from the California shore. It truly is craziness.

[CtheW0rld]

HAL tried when the beautiful Noordam was a brand new ship and it seems they didn't make money even with that gorgeous ship.

 

People didn't like the pricing and demanded lower; they didn't spend very much on board; it cost a lot of fuel to cruise down the coast to warm weather and HAL is in the business of turning a profit.

 

If they made money, if the region was willing to pay enough to support the ship, they'd have one there. IMO

They tried.

 

DH and I traveled from Boston to NYC to sail Noordam while she still did the ten and eleven day cruises to Caribbean and back and we had a wonderful time. We had fabulous weather and smooth sailing but that did not always happen.

 

 

 

the one statemnet i hi-lighted sums it up. HAL is a business.

[hypercafe]

There are many lines that have had ships here year round for years. I guess they are doing OK as the ships are still here, sailing full each week. As said NCL is bringing their new ship here in the spring. They all must use fuel to reach warm weather in the winter and all going to Bermuda have the shops and casino closed while there. As for New Yorkers not spending while on board! I have taken most of my trips from here as we live here. The ships have a wide base of people from all over the country and lots from Europe as the air to NYC area is good. If you have spent time here I really don't think you would feel New Yorkers are cheap! I feel HAL likes to put their ships on runs that have a unique itinerary, out of here all ships go to the basic same place so the competition is based on price and the ship only. I know in Bermuda HAL is the only one who did Hamilton and many people here really liked it, however I bet the average person looking for a trip to Bermuda doesn't know the difference or could care less.

[kazu]

There are many lines that have had ships here year round for years. I guess they are doing OK as the ships are still here, sailing full each week. As said NCL is bringing their new ship here in the spring. They all must use fuel to reach warm weather in the winter and all going to Bermuda have the shops and casino closed while there. As for New Yorkers not spending while on board! I have taken most of my trips from here as we live here. The ships have a wide base of people from all over the country and lots from Europe as the air to NYC area is good. If you have spent time here I really don't think you would feel New Yorkers are cheap! I feel HAL likes to put their ships on runs that have a unique itinerary, out of here all ships go to the basic same place so the competition is based on price and the ship only. I know in Bermuda HAL is the only one who did Hamilton and many people here really liked it, however I bet the average person looking for a trip to Bermuda doesn't know the difference or could care less.[/quote]

 

The bolding is mine - I think this is a very good point. I bet many do not know the difference and are just looking for the best price!

[FoxyTerrier]

Cruise lines do not necessarily make most of their money from cabin fares but do seriously depend upon on board revenue. Seems there too many folks who were unwilling to do any spending at all.

 

 

If they are looking for more onboard spending maybe they should stock the shops with better quality items. Most of the stuff is junk. And most of it can be found in the junky shops near the port.

 

I think NYers and others like me would be will to part with $$$ if they saw something worth purchasing that could not be found elsewhere.

[HamOp]

There are many lines that have had ships here year round for years. I guess they are doing OK as the ships are still here, sailing full each week. As said NCL is bringing their new ship here in the spring. They all must use fuel to reach warm weather in the winter and all going to Bermuda have the shops and casino closed while there. As for New Yorkers not spending while on board! I have taken most of my trips from here as we live here. The ships have a wide base of people from all over the country and lots from Europe as the air to NYC area is good. If you have spent time here I really don't think you would feel New Yorkers are cheap! I feel HAL likes to put their ships on runs that have a unique itinerary, out of here all ships go to the basic same place so the competition is based on price and the ship only. I know in Bermuda HAL is the only one who did Hamilton and many people here really liked it, however I bet the average person looking for a trip to Bermuda doesn't know the difference or could care less.

 

My thinking exactly. If other lines can make a go of it from NYC, why not HAL?

[gkny]

It would be nice if HAL does have a ship during the summer months. Even going to Canada in the summer would be great. I live in NYC and hardly cruise from here. I dislike CCL so won't take them and then NCL is my second least favorite. I've been on Princess out of Brooklyn which was good but still doesn't compare to HAL.

[3rdGenCunarder]

There are many lines that have had ships here year round for years. I guess they are doing OK as the ships are still here, sailing full each week. As said NCL is bringing their new ship here in the spring. They all must use fuel to reach warm weather in the winter and all going to Bermuda have the shops and casino closed while there. As for New Yorkers not spending while on board! I have taken most of my trips from here as we live here. The ships have a wide base of people from all over the country and lots from Europe as the air to NYC area is good. If you have spent time here I really don't think you would feel New Yorkers are cheap! I feel HAL likes to put their ships on runs that have a unique itinerary, out of here all ships go to the basic same place so the competition is based on price and the ship only. I know in Bermuda HAL is the only one who did Hamilton and many people here really liked it, however I bet the average person looking for a trip to Bermuda doesn't know the difference or could care less.[/quote]

 

The bolding is mine - I think this is a very good point. I bet many do not know the difference and are just looking for the best price!

 

I agree, too! It would be interesting to know the percent of pax on their first trip to Bermuda on each of the ships that sails to Bermuda. I wouldn't be surprised if HAL has more pax who've sailed to Bermuda before, on ships that could go into Hamilton (and possibly, also St Georges). So we/they know the advanatage of being in Hamilton.

 

I also suspect that a lot of people who book cruises that dock at the west end don't notice that they get less time in Bermuda, at least not when they're booking. They want to take a cruise, go to Bermuda, get a good price and never mind the details.

 

(sorry the first quote didn't format right. I can't make it behave, but it is from hypercafe)

[George C]

It would be nice if HAL does have a ship during the summer months. Even going to Canada in the summer would be great. I live in NYC and hardly cruise from here. I dislike CCL so won't take them and then NCL is my second least favorite. I've been on Princess out of Brooklyn which was good but still doesn't compare to HAL.

 

I agree not about to sail CCL or NCL again and it is so much nicer leaving from midtown than leaving from Brooklyn ( even though I was born and raised there), but since we love visiting NYC and like to combine that with a cruise might book Princess in the future.

[nfcu]

Other lines (NCL and Carnival) can charge a much lower per diem than HAL. To compete, Noordam's per diem rate would have had to be lowered to an unacceptable level to produce HAL's superior product. Notice Princess is no longer doing the Caribbean from NYC either.

 

I rarely agree with Sail7Seas but in this case she is correct. If HAL could make money sailing from NYC, the Noordam would still be here.

 

We sailed on the Noordam's NYC sailing four times and loved everyone of them. At a question and answer session with Captain Hans Mateboer, he stated three reasons for Noordam leaving NYC: 1. fuel costs and wear and tear on the engines since the trip required max speed. 2. on-board income was way below what HAL receives when sailing from Florida, since the guest sailing from NYC were a lot older (younger NYCers tend to go on the other lines) . and 3. any on-board emergency during the transit (medical evacuation) meant the ship would be hours late arriving since they was no flex built into the schedule - and this happened often.