Airline delays

[Tapi]

The deal with the pilots is pretty simple, they are ticked off that they won't get a massive pay raise. They are also ticked that AA will no longer be financing their pension. Boohoo. Sorry you wont get paid $300,000++ to fly an airplane for 40 hours a month. Get over it or move to another airline.

 

Don't hate AA for what is happening, hate the pilots.

 

Can you tell I have absolutely no sympathy for the pilots?

 

 

How much is your life worth? Would you put your life in the hands of a pilot that makes $20,000 a year and who barely meets the rquirements, or would you prefer to put your life in the hands of a pilot that makes $150,000-$225,000 a year and who has 30 years of training and experience? As things stand, the average major airline pilot makes $1.50 to transport a passenger safely to their destination! :eek: Does that sound like a fair amount of money to you??? You think that management is right???

 

What these pilots want is MORE than fair. Unfortunately, the media always has to put a spin on the story.

 

These pilots have MORE than enough reason to do what they are doing. American management is bending them over when it's THEM who have put this airline in bankruptcy, and now they have the audacity to blame the pilot group.

 

PUH-LEASE! If American wants qualified pilots hauling their passengers around, treat them like what they are. If they prefer to have mediocre, underpaid, undertrained, underqualified pilots, then definitely pay them less and give them less benefits, but stop calling themselves a major airline.

[Tapi]

Can you tell I have absolutely no sympathy for the pilots?

 

BTW, I have the entire Pilot Implementation Schedule imposed by AA management to their pilots on PDF file right in front of me as we speak, which outlines everything. It's SICKENING what management is trying to do.

 

You should read it before you form an opinion...

[laumicmah]

I just booked AA for our August 2013 cruise (booked on Expedia). It's a non-refundable ticket. It was a great price for round trip from BWI (and non-stop). I bought Expedia's insurance. We are flying in 2 days pre-cruise, so being late won't cause too much trouble for us. But, could the company go under before our trip...if so, will we get refunded or can we lose our money (we booked for 8 people at $205 pp)? If they merge or get bought out, do we still have our flight booked or will we need to re-book something with whatever the new company will be? We usually drive to port too...this would be the 1st time flying in to our cruise port...uggghhh.

[GRAMMYTAN]

The airlines offered them their last offer contract and the pilots said no deal, so AA went to court to make them fly with no contract.

 

So pilots are doing a slow down.

 

Its against the law says AA to strike a bankrupt company is how they are keeping the pilots flying at this point with no contract.

 

First court upheld the pilots contract .. but the second court threw out the existing contract allowing aa to offer them less than they were making under the contract in existance when aa went bankrupt... aa says the pilots have to accept less, you have no choice.

 

I didnt know there was a law preventing strikes against a bankrupt company .. but thats what our news says. I just listen as it seems to be on every week with the back and forth.

 

 

Fire, even though it is against the rules of CC they were joking about your spelling (gripping instead of griping) :)

[firefly333]

BTW, I have the entire Pilot Implementation Schedule imposed by AA management to their pilots on PDF file right in front of me as we speak, which outlines everything. It's SICKENING what management is trying to do.

 

You should read it before you form an opinion...

 

Do you have family who are pilots?

 

Of course no one expects them to fly for $20K.

 

But somehow they have to get where management takes cuts too and doesnt give themselves raises and they turn a profit... if they cant turn a profit.. at some point why would they keep flying?

[Maxpilot]

PUH-LEASE! If American wants qualified pilots hauling their passengers around, treat them like what they are. If they prefer to have mediocre, underpaid, undertrained, underqualified pilots, then definitely pay them less and give them less benefits, but stop calling themselves a major airline.

 

There is no such thing as under qualified or under trained pilots. All pilots have to meet FAA standards of training and pass the appropriate qualification tests. There are thousands of experienced pilots that AA could hire.

 

What the AA pilots are doing is murder-suicide to the company, just like the Eastern pilots did 23 years ago. I suppose this is in hopes they will force AA management to sell the airline to another company that may be promising to keep them whole. If that strategy works, they will be lucky if they are stapled to the bottom of the acquiring companies seniority list.

 

The AA pilots, if they continue to follow this course without a heading change will find themselves looking for any job they can get in order to pay their mortgages. Instead of "thank you for flying American" will be saying "do you want fries with that".

 

 

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[Captain Carnival]

I was thinking to book with AA for my flight to Venice in May.....but I think USAir is looking much better now.

[gerrylum]

So I booked my flight for my Sep. 24th cruise through Carnival's Fly Aweigh program. They gave me an AA flight from Dallas that's scheduled to arrive in FL an hour before embarkation starts.

 

Is this going to be a problem?

[Almost Packed]

any pilot flying the aircraft is qualified. his pay does not qualify him or state he is a good pilot. it only states if he's captain or first officer-left seat or right seat. Any pilot hired by AA or other carrier must meet certain standards. It doesn't matter if he's making $20k (none at AA are) or $200k. And that pilot making $200k does not care any more or less about his life or his passengers than the pilot making $50k.

 

Why one would want to "bite the hand that feeds them" is beyond me :rolleyes:

 

I feel sorry for all of the passengers who will be stranded. Thankfully, most of the other airlines will/should help accommodate stranded passengers or that has been something that has happened in the past.

 

If you are booked on a flight in the next couple of days, i'd certainly be trying to fly out early standby. or start driving now if you don't want to miss your ship...

[westcruzer]

Just one more reason I book my flights with Southwest Airlines. Yes, I understand many of you live in areas that Southwest may not serve but the few flights I had no choice but to fly with US Airways and AA I saw a HUGE difference in the customer service and attitudes to the customers. I'm not saying southwest is perfect but the few experiences I have had with other airlines have been very poor customer service on the phone and ticket counter/gate counter employees.

[Tapi]

It doesn't matter if he's making $20k (none at AA are) or $200k.

 

You're right! None of the pilots at AA are making $20K, but here's one of those bits of information that the news has chosen not to report in order to put the spin they want on the story. As part of the "concessions" that AA management is imposing on their pilots, they will now allow OTHER airlines to fly AA routes. These routes are not even being flown by their own affiliate, American Eagle. In fact, just a few days ago, AA signed a contract with Skywest to operate some of their flights out of Dallas and Los Angeles on airplanes with a shiny new American paint job (but that don't belong to them).

 

And guess what? That First Officer on your next "American Airlines" flight could easily be a Skywest pilot who is making $22K. The Captain could be 2 years senior to him making $47K. And neither one of them may have ever seen the flight deck of a jet before (even though they meet "FAA minimum requirements").

 

I'm sure that if Carnival or any cruise line tried to pull that stunt on their passengers out there, there would be a public outcry against Carnival management, and mutiny onboard. I can imagine people arriving at the port to board the Carnival Breeze, only to find out that Carnival has replaced their ship with the SeaEscape casino boat!

 

There is no such thing as under qualified or under trained pilots. All pilots have to meet FAA standards of training and pass the appropriate qualification tests.

 

Let's be realistic here. Threre's a BIG difference between "meeting FAA standards" and being qualified. Minimum requirements to get hired at a part 121 airline these days are ATP requirements. You could literally have received most of your experience flight instructing at a local airport on a Cessna 172, or spent the entire time towing a banner up and down a beach on a sunny day. THAT, my friend doesn't qualify anybody to be behind the controls of a jet airplane, carrying hundreds of passengers every day through congested airspace, in hazardous weather, or heavens forbid, dealing with a major emergency. If you've never seen a brand new First Officer straight out of flight school melt in the right seat and hyperventilate because they are overwhelmed, I have!

[Tapi]

Just one more reason I book my flights with Southwest Airlines.

 

Southwest is merging with Air Tran. 88 of their airplanes are going away as part of the transition (ironically being transferred to another competitor). Several destinations are being eliminated. The Air Tran employees are angry at the way their seniority lists are being merged. A lot of unhappiness these days. Not even Southwest can escape this type of issue....:(

[CruiseDirections]

Starting to get nervous about our flight to San Juan at the end of October on AA, I hope they get things straightened out.

[urbanhawk]

I was thinking to book with AA for my flight to Venice in May.....but I think USAir is looking much better now.

 

It may be the same by then-or in the near futue-talking to friends who recently worked at AA, it looks like AA and US Air will be merging (just like the recent merge of United and Continental).....

[zqvol]

How much is your life worth? Would you put your life in the hands of a pilot that makes $20,000 a year and who barely meets the rquirements, or would you prefer to put your life in the hands of a pilot that makes $150,000-$225,000 a year and who has 30 years of training and experience? As things stand, the average major airline pilot makes $1.50 to transport a passenger safely to their destination! :eek: Does that sound like a fair amount of money to you??? You think that management is right???

 

What these pilots want is MORE than fair. Unfortunately, the media always has to put a spin on the story.

 

These pilots have MORE than enough reason to do what they are doing. American management is bending them over when it's THEM who have put this airline in bankruptcy, and now they have the audacity to blame the pilot group.

 

PUH-LEASE! If American wants qualified pilots hauling their passengers around, treat them like what they are. If they prefer to have mediocre, underpaid, undertrained, underqualified pilots, then definitely pay them less and give them less benefits, but stop calling themselves a major airline.

 

 

Thank goodness we have bankruptcy courts to reign in out of control pilots like yourself. All are over paid for what they do.

[Almost Packed]

Southwest is merging with Air Tran. 88 of their airplanes are going away as part of the transition (ironically being transferred to another competitor). Several destinations are being eliminated. The Air Tran employees are angry at the way their seniority lists are being merged. A lot of unhappiness these days. Not even Southwest can escape this type of issue....:(

 

Southwest purchased air tran...and with that purchase, came a huge pay raise for contracts plus benefits. those a/c are going away....to be replaced my a more fuel efficient a/c that is more profitable. Southwest flies one type of a/c and those 88 being sold/leased to other companies is good business sense.

 

I look at it this way...any airline/company's employee(s) at risk of going out of business, should be happy to have a job...regardless where you fall on the seniority list. i'd rather work graveyard shift for $100k a year than work days at my home doing housework and not getting paid while searching for a new job. :eek:

 

I'm not aware of too many other airlines hiring pilots at 200k a year right now. but hey, more power to em.

[westcruzer]

Southwest is merging with Air Tran. 88 of their airplanes are going away as part of the transition (ironically being transferred to another competitor). Several destinations are being eliminated. The Air Tran employees are angry at the way their seniority lists are being merged. A lot of unhappiness these days. Not even Southwest can escape this type of issue....:(

 

Hmm taking a snip of info and showing you don't know the full facts. Southwest has bought out Air Tran. As a smart business move they are not keeping all the routes. That being said Air Tran failed their customers not Southwest. These routes Southwest decided to cut could have been part of the reason Air Tran struggled and decided to sell.

Southwest has also been very smart by transitioning the buyout slowly. Most businesses jump the gun and want the switch immediately which causes havoc on not only the new part of the business but the existing part of the business as well.

Southwest has such a good business practice even during the months following 9-11 while all the other airlines laid off an average of 16% of their workforces and cut 20% of their routes, Southwest never laid off ANY employees. Southwest has a no lay off policy. This shows they truly care about their employees. Happy Employees give a better environment.

 

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[loubetti]

So, fire, what are the pilots "gripping" about?

 

It's this this thing called pay and benefits, and they've all been screwed over the years. Flying a 60 to 250 million dollar plane should be a very well-paid job. Sadly, it is not what it used to be.

[lovesublime]

You're right! None of the pilots at AA are making $20K, but here's one of those bits of information that the news has chosen not to report in order to put the spin they want on the story. As part of the "concessions" that AA management is imposing on their pilots, they will now allow OTHER airlines to fly AA routes. These routes are not even being flown by their own affiliate, American Eagle. In fact, just a few days ago, AA signed a contract with Skywest to operate some of their flights out of Dallas and Los Angeles on airplanes with a shiny new American paint job (but that don't belong to them).

 

And guess what? That First Officer on your next "American Airlines" flight could easily be a Skywest pilot who is making $22K. The Captain could be 2 years senior to him making $47K. And neither one of them may have ever seen the flight deck of a jet before (even though they meet "FAA minimum requirements").

 

I'm sure that if Carnival or any cruise line tried to pull that stunt on their passengers out there, there would be a public outcry against Carnival management, and mutiny onboard. I can imagine people arriving at the port to board the Carnival Breeze, only to find out that Carnival has replaced their ship with the SeaEscape casino boat!

 

 

 

Let's be realistic here. Threre's a BIG difference between "meeting FAA standards" and being qualified. Minimum requirements to get hired at a part 121 airline these days are ATP requirements. You could literally have received most of your experience flight instructing at a local airport on a Cessna 172, or spent the entire time towing a banner up and down a beach on a sunny day. THAT, my friend doesn't qualify anybody to be behind the controls of a jet airplane, carrying hundreds of passengers every day through congested airspace, in hazardous weather, or heavens forbid, dealing with a major emergency. If you've never seen a brand new First Officer straight out of flight school melt in the right seat and hyperventilate because they are overwhelmed, I have!

 

 

 

Pray tell, how did all of our BIG JET pilots ever gain their hours and experience? Most, if not all, have worked as flight instructors flying 172s at the local municipal. Most pilots today start off at the regionals (after working as a flight instructor or...some 'buy' their hours). In fact, most airlines hiring are looking for pilots who have earned their hours. There is no such thing as a 'brand new' first officer'. Those pilots have been flying for years. You make it sound like a new pilot walks out of flight school and starts flying heavy right off the bat. Not happening. And for the record, there are many, many Eagle pilots barely making $27,000 a year. Many on food stamps and medicaid.

[Tapi]

Hmm taking a snip of info and showing you don't know the full facts....

 

....This shows they truly care about their employees. Happy Employees give a better environment.

 

 

Southwest IS a great airline, one that has definitely been managed much better than other airlines. They have and deserve the respect and admiration of every other airline out there.

 

But it still has its own labor issues to deal with, which is why I posted my previous comment. This just came out this morning:

 

Southwest Airlines and a union representing about 8,500 ground workers have asked federal mediators to revive stalled contract talks, according to The Associated Press.

 

The Transport Workers Union claims there’s been almost no progress made in 14 months of negotiations. Both sides say they’ve asked the National Mediation Board to step in.

 

The union claims Southwest is using bankruptcy cost-cutting by other airlines to justify squeezing its own employees, including outsourcing jobs and hiring more part-timers while offering no pay raises.

 

The company has posted a profit every year going back to the early 1970s, but CEO Gary Kelly “warned employees in December that Southwest had lost half its cost advantage because big rivals reduced expenses during bankruptcy reorganizations, making them tougher competitors,” the story said.

[purduemom1]

Let's not start rumors that will just make this situation worse. I know for a fact that ALL the Skywest pilots that will be flying AA flights will be flying jets that are owned by Skywest and so these SKW pilots will be flying equipment that they are trained to fly, are experienced in, and have the correct rating for.

 

Not sure where you got your pay info but it is not correct. However, I firmly believe that even a First Officer, at entry level pay, will do everything within his/her power to take off, fly and land the aircraft safely.

[Tapi]

And for the record, there are many, many Eagle pilots barely making $27,000 a year. Many on food stamps and medicaid.

 

All are over paid for what they do.

 

That's my point! People here think that pilots are being greedy, and they think that they make SO MUCH money, when it's only a very small fraction of the industry that actually makes that kind of money! Many of these "so called" greedy pilots are barely making enough money to pay their rent, they are spending nights on two chairs pulled together at the airport because they can't afford a hotel room the night before their trip begins, and plain and simple, the years that they've put into their careers don't match what they are earning.

 

There is no such thing as a 'brand new' first officer'. Those pilots have been flying for years. You make it sound like a new pilot walks out of flight school and starts flying heavy right off the bat.

 

YES, there is such a thing as a brand new First Officer. And up until a few months ago, pilots could walk from flight school and land on the right seat of a regional jet with barely enough time to get their commercial license (they didn't even need to meet ATP requirements). It wasn't until very recently that minimums were raised to get hired at a part 121 job.

[Tapi]

Let's not start rumors that will just make this situation worse. I know for a fact that ALL the Skywest pilots that will be flying AA flights will be flying jets that are owned by Skywest and so these SKW pilots will be flying equipment that they are trained to fly, are experienced in, and have the correct rating for.

 

It's not a rumor. You said it the way it is. Skywest pilots will fly Skywest airplanes that will be re-painted in AA colors and operated as AA flights.

 

Not sure where you got your pay info but it is not correct.

 

That is correct. Their current contract calls for $22K the first year across the board. Whether they are flying a turbprop or a CRJ-900. It's public information.

 

BTW, Purdue has one of the BEST flight schools in the nation. My respects to any pilot that comes out of that university.

[Tapi]

You know what? my apologies to all of you for getting caught up in this thread. I absolutely HATE and avoid talking about aviation related topics when I'm at work because of exactly this. It's a volatile topic because of the nature of this industry, yet somehow I got sucked right into this thread!

 

Talking about aviation with other aviation co-workers is like talking about religion, politics, or any other controversial topic. It's better to avoid them altogether. It never ends well. Everybody has a different idea of what's right, what's wrong, etc.

 

I come to Cruise Critic to get AWAY from work, not to talk about it. So I'm moving on from this thread.

 

Once again, my apologies! :o

[westcruzer]

Tapi....I posted a response regarding your second to last post then after posting I read your final post. Hence this edit. I apologize as well for getting caught up in this. I should not have even made my comment about southwest in the first place. I say so many times about people bringing negativity onto cruise critic and I quickly became one of them. I apologize as well.