Passport - why so scary

[sullaRaffaello]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sullaRaffaello

I would say yes. I think it's only a matter of time when it's going to be: if you leave your country, you'll need a passport, period.

 

 

Why would the government to that; what is their motivation?

 

The motivation would be to bring the US up to date with what goes on in most of the world, and obviously to make things more security conscious. The closed loop exception is a remnant of the time when a US citizen could travel all over North America, the Caribbean, the Bahamas and Bermuda without a passport. It's a concept (traveling out of the country without a passport) that's long out of date.

[sparks1093]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sullaRaffaello

I would say yes. I think it's only a matter of time when it's going to be: if you leave your country, you'll need a passport, period.

 

 

 

 

The motivation would be to bring the US up to date with what goes on in most of the world, and obviously to make things more security conscious. The closed loop exception is a remnant of the time when a US citizen could travel all over North America, the Caribbean, the Bahamas and Bermuda without a passport. It's a concept (traveling out of the country without a passport) that's long out of date.

 

And yet the countries that we can travel to on a closed loop cruise still do not require us to have passports. Guess the US isn't the only out of date country;)

[RockeyBullwinkle]

And yet the countries that we can travel to on a closed loop cruise still do not require us to have passports. Guess the US isn't the only out of date country;)

 

no, these countries would be poorer than they already are if they tampered with the tourist industry they want tourist money more than they care about a passport.

[zekekelso]

The motivation would be to bring the US up to date with what goes on in most of the world,

 

LOL. Congress isn't in the habit of changing US law for the purpose of making our laws more like those in say, Belgium.

 

and obviously to make things more security conscious.

 

It's not obvious to me that requiring a passport on a closed loop cruise makes thing more security conscious. How does it?

 

The closed loop exception is a remnant of the time when a US citizen could travel all over North America, the Caribbean, the Bahamas and Bermuda without a passport. It's a concept (traveling out of the country without a passport) that's long out of date.

 

The close loop exception is a post 9/11 law. It's from the world we live in *now*. What has happened since the law was created that justifies changing it?

Edited May 30, 2013 by zekekelso

[paul929207]

If and when the rules change, then those without a passport will have to make a choice. They would have to either get a passport at that time or vacation in the US.

[Warm Breezes]

If and when the rules change, then those without a passport will have to make a choice. They would have to either get a passport at that time or vacation in the US.

 

Exactly. People are making their decisions based on the law as it currently stands. That law allows them to make the choice on closed loop cruises to get a passport or not. That means it comes down to their own risk vs value analysis. The risk could be extremely small or it could be higher based on your own factors. Your risk aversion could be low or high. We all have lines that we won't cross....those lines just aren't in the same place for everyone. It's a personal choice. Neither option is wrong based on the law. If the law were to change then people will base their decision on the law as it stands then. Until then, give the people who ask the facts, and let them make their own decision based on their own risk vs value analysis without judging them by your own standards.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Warm Breezes

[proudaunt]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it. What were the complications with those who didn't have passports when they had to fly back when the ships were stuck in another country? I know there was talk about it being complicated, but with bringing up the risk factor, how much of a hassle was it?

[sail7seas]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it. What were the complications with those who didn't have passports when they had to fly back when the ships were stuck in another country? I know there was talk about it being complicated, but with bringing up the risk factor, how much of a hassle was it?

 

 

If you are referring to the Carnival Cruise ship episodes, special arrangements were made for those who did not have passports but the matter had to be addressed with U.S. Officials for them to be permitted re-entry and for air travel.

[Warm Breezes]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it. What were the complications with those who didn't have passports when they had to fly back when the ships were stuck in another country? I know there was talk about it being complicated, but with bringing up the risk factor, how much of a hassle was it?

 

Someone who was on the Dream posted a picture of the letter they received from the CBP waiving the passport requirement. The letter was dated the same day Carnival decided not to sail. They went home at the same time as everyone else who had passports with no issues.

[jwm51]

Why bother with the sheriff of 'No Passports & Why Is it Any of Your Business'...:mad:

 

Still pushing this for 26 PAGES so far???:eek:

 

Where's your office, sheriff? So I can file a complaint...You know about you hijacking threads & PUSHING YOUR OWN AGENDA!!!:(

 

Move on & give a rest just for a little while (quit ranting, it's not good for you!) and have a Blessed day!!!:D:p

[paul929207]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it. What were the complications with those who didn't have passports when they had to fly back when the ships were stuck in another country? I know there was talk about it being complicated, but with bringing up the risk factor, how much of a hassle was it?

There were no problems in the recent Carnival and RCI problems. Those without passports were given a waiver and flew to the US on the same flights as those with passports.

[Warm Breezes]

Why bother with the sheriff of 'No Passports & Why Is it Any of Your Business'...:mad:

 

Still pushing this for 26 PAGES so far???:eek:

 

Where's your office, sheriff? So I can file a complaint...You know about you hijacking threads & PUSHING YOUR OWN AGENDA!!!:(

 

Move on & give a rest just for a little while (quit ranting, it's not good for you!) and have a Blessed day!!!:D:p

 

I'm assuming you are directing your tirade at me since it was after my post answering another poster's question. You may want to look in the mirror. It appears to me the only person ranting and personally attacking is you:rolleyes:.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Warm Breezes

[sparks1093]

no, these countries would be poorer than they already are if they tampered with the tourist industry they want tourist money more than they care about a passport.

 

Then they are selling their security for tourism. Anyway you look at it, it's still their choice whether or not to require passports.

[CPT Trips]

Not sure that the islands and Cenral American countries are selling their security. The BC and ID cruisers possess adequate documentation to get a passport and they are vetted by DHS the same as a passport holder.

[jwm51]

I'm assuming you are directing your tirade at me since it was after my post answering another poster's question. You may want to look in the mirror. It appears to me the only person ranting and personally attacking is you:rolleyes:.

 

I wasn't talking about you OR to you!!!:eek::p

 

Sorry if I offended you although I was talking about someone else!;)

[Warm Breezes]

I wasn't talking about you OR to you!!!:eek::p

 

Sorry if I offended you although I was talking about someone else!;)

No matter who it was directed at, your post was still a tirade and a personal attack on another poster that was unnecessary. It still offends me even it wasn't directed at me.

[songbird1329]

Someone who was on the Dream posted a picture of the letter they received from the CBP waiving the passport requirement. The letter was dated the same day Carnival decided not to sail. They went home at the same time as everyone else who had passports with no issues.

 

That's because it was done en masse for the Dream passengers. I am sure it was the same for RCI, they flew their passengers home on chartered flights.

 

And we taxpayers bear the "cost" of having our embassy workers issue those waivers, in terms of hours spent.

 

Someone who, let's say, missed the boat and found themselves stranded, well, I'm not sure they'd receive such rapid and efficient service to get their paperwork in order.

 

 

Interesting what other countries allow . . . When we sailed to Belize and Honduras I looked up the passport requirements for each country. The official website for each country says US citizens entering the country must have passports. It does NOT say "unless you arrive by cruise ship on a closed loop cruise." As a practical matter the exception exists, because their economies are heavily dependent on cruise ship tourism.

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[Warm Breezes]

That's because it was done en masse for the Dream passengers. I am sure it was the same for RCI, they flew their passengers home on chartered flights.

 

And we taxpayers bear the "cost" of having our embassy workers issue those waivers, in terms of hours spent. As US Citizens, those who were sailing without passports are taxpayers. I'm sure they've paid enough in taxes over the years to cover the cost involved :rolleyes:. After all, I'm sure we all made use of items paid for with our taxpayer money over the years....but some people will use one service while someone else may use another. Now if our taxpayer money was going to help non-US citizens get back then you would have an argument against using taxpayer money.

 

Someone who, let's say, missed the boat and found themselves stranded, well, I'm not sure they'd receive such rapid and efficient service to get their paperwork in order. I never said an individual would have as easy of a time. The question I was answering was regarding those stranded on the Dream.

 

 

Interesting what other countries allow . . . When we sailed to Belize and Honduras I looked up the passport requirements for each country. The official website for each country says US citizens entering the country must have passports. It does NOT say "unless you arrive by cruise ship on a closed loop cruise." As a practical matter the exception exists, because their economies are heavily dependent on cruise ship tourism.

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The port cities rely on that tourism so I'm sure they don't want to hurt themselves by putting passport restrictions on those tourists.

[sparks1093]

That's because it was done en masse for the Dream passengers. I am sure it was the same for RCI, they flew their passengers home on chartered flights.

 

And we taxpayers bear the "cost" of having our embassy workers issue those waivers, in terms of hours spent.

 

Someone who, let's say, missed the boat and found themselves stranded, well, I'm not sure they'd receive such rapid and efficient service to get their paperwork in order.

 

 

Interesting what other countries allow . . . When we sailed to Belize and Honduras I looked up the passport requirements for each country. The official website for each country says US citizens entering the country must have passports. It does NOT say "unless you arrive by cruise ship on a closed loop cruise." As a practical matter the exception exists, because their economies are heavily dependent on cruise ship tourism.

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Embassy workers didn't issue the letter, it was issued by CBP and it was probably given to the cruise line to make copies and distribute. If Belize and Honduras don't have an exception to their passport requirements for cruise ship passengers then our exception is irrelevent, you would need a passport if your itinerary included those ports. (Even DHS says on the getyouhome.com website that you need to check the passport requirements of the countries that your are visiting.)

[songbird1329]

Embassy workers didn't issue the letter, it was issued by CBP and it was probably given to the cruise line to make copies and distribute. If Belize and Honduras don't have an exception to their passport requirements for cruise ship passengers then our exception is irrelevent, you would need a passport if your itinerary included those ports. (Even DHS says on the getyouhome.com website that you need to check the passport requirements of the countries that your are visiting.)

 

I didn't see the waiver letters, I'm going to go research what happened. But those letters didn't miraculously turn up in each passenger's cabin, someone had to create the letter and distribute it, and the government would be remiss if it didn't evaluate the recipients before issuing such a letter.

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[zekekelso]

[quote name='songbird1329']And we taxpayers bear the "cost" of having our embassy workers issue those waivers, in terms of hours spent. [/quote]

Oh for Pete's sake... it doesn't take long to issue a form, and we are talking about salaried employees so the net cost of issuing the form vs not is essentially $0.

When you have to resort to totally ridiculous arguments to back up your point, it's a good sign your point is wrong.

[paul929207]

[quote name='zekekelso']Oh for Pete's sake... it doesn't take long to issue a form, and we are talking about salaried employees so the net cost of issuing the form vs not is essentially $0.

When you have to resort to totally ridiculous arguments to back up your point, it's a good sign your point is wrong.[/QUOTE]
Seems like some people will grasp at any straw to try & force people to get a passport.

[Rocketlady]

Someone mentioned they never buy passports and never insurance?

Well, I won't be traveling without it. Our friend parents was on a cruise last year. She broke her hip on the cruise ship. So both her parents had to be
transported to a hospital on the next port stop. The mother ended up in the
hospital there for over a month before she could fly home. There is a lot of
details I won't go into what they had to put up with while there. But in the end the bill was $80,000. Note they were in their 80s all alone the two of them.

But if you have the means to cover it all I guess it doesn't matter.

[pscozz702]

I've been silent now for a while reading the arguments back and forth, everyone has their own opinion and are entitled to it, facts are closed looped cruises don't need passports, facts are some ports visited need passports for air travel; if some emergency arises and you need to leave. I don't know if this is a fact or not for anybody else but for me it is...WITH A PASSPORT TRAVELING ANYWHERE IS EASIER. The other part that was stated in the beginning about how expensive passports are, even if you cruise or fly once a year for 10 years it pays for itself with the convienence, sorry can't spell, and hassle free form BCP and TSA.

[songbird1329]

[quote name='zekekelso']Oh for Pete's sake... it doesn't take long to issue a form, and we are talking about salaried employees so the net cost of issuing the form vs not is essentially $0.

When you have to resort to totally ridiculous arguments to back up your point, it's a good sign your point is wrong.[/QUOTE]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The forms were processed and issued by salaried employees, I assume, so the actual cost can't be calculated in currency. So saying it cost $0 is technically accurate. No one was paid overtime to deal with this disaster.

What I am talking about is the "cost" in terms of workloads and manpower hours. It's not just this form, it's every time someone needs an emergency passport because they're stranded and sailed without one.

Every efficiency expert would be quick to point out that doing something in advance is less costly than doing it on an emergency basis.

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