Cruise Passenger Assaulted on Holland America Cruise Ship

[Aquahound]

Sail,

 

Please keep in mind that poster Aquahound stated on another thread that the media was being fairly accurate with the reports.

 

 

To be honest, I've been told 3 different things....room attendant, room service waiter, and one brief even said concierge. The details have been pretty accurate, but the media tends to not really understand the differences in cruise ship positions.

 

I'm interested if it will be State of Florida vs. Mr whatever his name is or if it will be Federal charges? United States of America vs. Mr. Jerk.

 

Was today's court appearance an arraignment?

 

Today's appearance was just Initial Appearance. It was just a judge confirming there was Probable Cause. The venue is federal. I'm sure a Grand Jury is set to indict him in the next couple weeks.

[ScriptOhio]

Holland America Issues Statement on Rape Onboard Nieuw Amsterdam

 

http://www.travelagentcentral.com/cruises/holland-america-issues-statement-rape-onboard-nieuw-amsterdam-44752

Edited February 20, 2014 by Host Walt
Removed copyrighted material

[sail7seas]

To be honest, I've been told 3 different things....room attendant, room service waiter, and one brief even said concierge. The details have been pretty accurate, but the media tends to not really understand the differences in cruise ship positions.

 

 

 

Today's appearance was just Initial Appearance. It was just a judge confirming there was Probable Cause. The venue is federal. I'm sure a Grand Jury is set to indict him in the next couple weeks.

 

 

Thanks, Aquahound.

Appreciate learning the procedure as to the Court Appearance.

I was interested if it would be Federal charges.

 

[sjn911]

I am so sorry to hear about this..I am comforted that the FBI and legal follow through is so clear and more and more is written in that positive vein with many in the know. This appears to me to be much better than even 5 years ago in such cases. This should not stop people from traveling or solo; woman or men from traveling alone. Adults are safer than children to a degree..but we sure are all vulnerable and I pray things are learned throughout this ordeal to make us all just a bit safer..always improving to do our best in these circumstances.

 

I know I had a woman on my last cruise for my cabin steward...and nobody came in my room to remove a tray except for a part of normal cabin servicing I know about or unless I called.

 

I have been fortunate to always feel the safest in a hotel/motel/cruise environment when traveling with or solo.

 

I do think a well rested crew and safety in numbers..even perhaps meeting a head steward and his helpers for your room if that system is ever used would help. On one cruise there were several people doing different bathroom jobs at appointed time I noticed.

 

I am also a firm believer in do not disturb and clarifying..that above all else I am on vacation to rest and do not want interruptions if that is up..even if I miss a cleaning.

 

This surely is a warning for what anger does..no matter the cause ( of course at it's depth there is no excuse)..and keeping one's cool..makes one safest.

 

Prayers...to the victim and those hurt by victimizer..may all get some healing..

 

I feel good about Hal's honesty on this.

 

I also truly appreciate the level headed discussion here with so many in the know..it helps so much in working this out..and thinking of how to best care for oneself and others in theses situations.

 

 

..Sarah

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[Chelly]

I continue to have no worries about traveling solo. However, I'll probably check my balcony when returning to my cabin now.

[hvsteve1]

I don't want to be flamed for sounding "racist" but let's be honest about the downside of staffing ships with natives of third world countries. While we have found them to be lovely people, all you have to do is turn on the TV to see some of the stuff that happens in those countries. There is a huge difference in culture, religion and laws between those countries and the west. Cruise line employees, of course, understand they are there to serve and be as affable and respectful as possible. However, this reminds me of stories I read about Rhodesia when the white minority was being replaced by the African majority. Household employees and field hands who had seemed to be almost part of the family showed up at their employers homes armed with guns and knives and a whole different attitude. I'm not saying all crew are like this, but the thought this woman was referring to HIM as the son of a dog would be a blood libel in many of these countries. On the other hand, maybe he is lying about his motive and it was really a sexual assault. Imagine someone raised in a society where modesty, especially by women, is of paramount importance and he is on maybe his first "nude cruise" watching men and women walking around with no clothing. Does this make him so furious that he feels the woman is a "whore" (according to his culture) and anything goes or that she needs to be punished. I was just thinking.

[Seago2]

Unbelievable. My first thought was that this had to be an elderly woman; our last HAL cruise was at exactly this time two years ago and I think we were among the youngest on the ship (late forties). The fact that it was a clothing optional cruise makes me think maybe she was younger and at least somewhat able to fight back.

 

I have fears on cruises that are always way in the back of my mind (fire, for example) but this has never been one of them, despite the occasional incident in the papers. This is so far beyond the beyond. How terrible.

 

I really hope this woman is okay and manages in some way to move on.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Seago2

[sjn911]

I agree nudist cruise or not..not any excuse for this.

 

However I also believe in when reasonable to line up things for the best success.

 

The whole nudist deal is not my thing..and I do think there as many different types with different beliefs and motives as passengers on this kind of a cruise as a regular clothed cruise and many swimsuit areas are far beyond the cultural ok norm for many countries.

 

Things are always changing..but for safety of Bare Necessities..the cultural norms of groups serving them on their destination outings probably will be something to now think about and carefully consider.

 

I also pray the whole thing is another move toward understanding the breadth of what is behind these crimes and the seriousness of the offender and prejudices toward "how bad" rape alone is..in addition this kind of battery and attempt to kill...it often escalates as the hate and anger does.

 

We had a terrible deal on rape sentencing in this state recently.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/justice/montana-rape-judge/

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[Aquahound]

I'm not saying all crew are like this, but the thought this woman was referring to HIM as the son of a dog would be a blood libel in many of these countries.

 

Things that make you go hmmmmmm. ;) No flames from me because what you say does have a point. Just a little discussion here....This is in no way a defense for the suspect or a flame on the victim, but certain phrases we take as slang and just an expression of disgust, others may take literally. All indications so far support that as being the case here. It's only prudent to avoid such sayings in an international setting.

 

But that works both ways. Going into the service industry demands patience and with a majority western world passenger load, he should better understand our expressions. What she allegedly said is nothing compared to what an angry woman would say from certain other countries.

 

Unbelievable. My first thought was that this had to be an elderly woman; our last HAL cruise was at exactly this time two years ago and I think we were among the youngest on the ship (late forties). The fact that it was a clothing optional cruise makes me think maybe she was younger and at least somewhat able to fight back.

 

The victim is 31 years old.

[rkacruiser]

I do think that Holland America Line needs to re-think their policy of what charters are granted to whomever/whatever.

 

Did this charter really reflect the "Signature of Excellence" that the Company tries to project? Was such a charter in the best interest of the parent Corporation? Would such a charter be better booked on a different Company within the Carnival Corporation family?

 

But, on the other hand, if Holland America were to refuse such a charter, could the Company be accused of discrimination?

 

It is a complex world in which we live.

[sjn911]

I do think that Holland America Line needs to re-think their policy of what charters are granted to whomever/whatever.

 

Did this charter really reflect the "Signature of Excellence" that the Company tries to project? Was such a charter in the best interest of the parent Corporation? Would such a charter be better booked on a different Company within the Carnival Corporation family?

 

But, on the other hand, if Holland America were to refuse such a charter, could the Company be accused of discrimination?

 

It is a complex world in which we live.

So true...again it is the level headed respectful conversation going on here that gives me hope:).

[Germancruiser]

This assault had nothing to do ( as it seems) with the nude cruise charter. However with so many cultures and nationalities working on board cruise ships. '" The Nude " thing can offend some in their religious believe´s I suppose. I don´t think it is very wise of the cruise lines to have those " Nude- Cruises" . ( I don´t see the point anyway. Uah)

[Boatdrill]

We were on the cruise. We learnt about this incident when we DID receive a letter of regret from HAL Captain about an incident on Jan 13th night and that the crew member has been apprehended. .

 

I beg your pardon, but I was on the NA on January 13 and it was NOT a charter of any kind, and none of us received such a note from the Captain.

[BeagleOne]

I agree nudist cruise or not..not any excuse for this.

 

However I also believe in when reasonable to line up things for the best success.

 

The whole nudist deal is not my thing..and I do think there as many different types with different beliefs and motives as passengers on this kind of a cruise as a regular clothed cruise and many swimsuit areas are far beyond the cultural ok norm for many countries.

 

Things are always changing..but for safety of Bare Necessities..the cultural norms of groups serving them on their destination outings probably will be something to now think about and carefully consider.

 

 

You make some good points, and I would respectfully say, we could also look at it from the opposite perspective. While the clothing "norms" in some of the crew members' home countries are much more restrictive than what is seen on cruise ships, the crew members chose to apply for and work for the cruise lines. Just as we need to respect other cultures when we visit their countries, that goes both ways...OUR cultures need to be respected by visitors to our countries. Which includes the cruise ships operating under the laws of (some of) those countries.

 

My understanding is that HAL and other cruise lines offer crew members an "out" for cruises chartered by groups to which they might object. IF (and it's a big "if") some of this crew member's anger was triggered by his opinion of nudists, then he should have stayed on shore.

 

Re refusing to accommodate a group...cruise lines would get in trouble if they refused to allow groups based on religion, race, gender, etc. I am not sure where the legal line is WRT refusing a charter to a group of nudists or motorcycle enthusiasts, etc. And the legal line is different from the "bad choice for business" line.

 

Aquahound, you mentioned in one of the closed threads that the perpetrator's hearing the victim's calling him a "son of a bitch" was accurate. Do you know, has the victim confirmed her use of the term? All of the media reports I have seen mention the perpetrator's claim that that is what she said, but he appears to be the only source for that...has that been confirmed by her? Thanks for any info.

Edited February 20, 2014 by BeagleOne

[Boatdrill]

Hal has no business doing nude cruise charters, it opens the door to trouble...

 

And that's why they no longer do charters for poker tournaments. Too many bad elements...from passengers, not crew.

[grandpa cruiser]

I think that should of read February 13, not January!!

[sjn911]

You make some good points, and I would respectfully say, we could also look at it from the opposite perspective. While the clothing "norms" in some of the crew members' home countries are much more restrictive than what is seen on cruise ships, the crew members chose to apply for and work for the cruise lines. Just as we need to respect other cultures when we visit their countries, that goes both ways...OUR cultures need to be respected by visitors to our countries. Which includes the cruise ships operating under the laws of (some of) those countries.

 

My understanding is that HAL and other cruise lines offer crew members an "out" for cruises chartered by groups to which they might object. IF (and it's a big "if") some of this crew member's anger was triggered by his opinion of nudists, then he should have stayed on shore.

 

Re refusing to accommodate a group...cruise lines would get in trouble if they refused to allow groups based on religion, race, gender, etc. I am not sure where the legal line is WRT refusing a charter to a group of nudists or motorcycle enthusiasts, etc. And the legal line is different from the "bad choice for business" line.

 

................................................................

 

Very true...as I tried to validate on Post 66. Thanks for adding to the conundrum that must be understood.

 

I think the choice not to work is a valid point as well... but a little difficult MAYBE....if trying to prove yourself and move up the ladder as an employee all willingness counts even if they say it would not hurt you and then there is lost precious income, bunking yourself somewhere etc.

 

But from the point of view of a perpetrator finding perfect game..who knows...and the risks did not outweigh his actions. Again very true and valid form this viewpoint as well..and..how can we say this would not have happened on a regular cruise as well?! Thanks for discussion.

 

There surely are many ways to look at this. Many valid.

 

Off subject..I just love your beagle..he/she has a face and eyes and look in the eyes of a very precious Jack Russell in my family..Patty.

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[sjn911]

I think that they already consider this. Crew are given the option to "opt out" of working this charter if they are uncomfortable with nudity. Which leads me to believe that possibly (and I stress POSSIBLY) this creep purposely agreed to work on this cruise because he already had the tendencies of a predator. Perhaps he spotted and stalked his target and then put his plan into action. Whatever the case, I believe that his story about being called a son of a b**** is a fabrication in order to convince everyone that his crime was not pre-meditated. I do not believe his story for a second.

 

Thanks for your thoughts...possibly very true. Hard to say how angry he was..what was building up..when pre-meditaton started..but sure could be possible he was "there" for a long time...or long enough for this to be in that camp of forethought.

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[artist47]

This assault had nothing to do ( as it seems) with the nude cruise charter. However with so many cultures and nationalities working on board cruise ships. '" The Nude " thing can offend some in their religious believe´s I suppose. I don´t think it is very wise of the cruise lines to have those " Nude- Cruises" . ( I don´t see the point anyway. Uah)

 

 

I completely agree with you. As I said in my post on the first (?) page, this man was from Indonesia, which has one of the worst track records when it comes to rape and violence against women in general, according to the United Nations report.

 

This guy has a cultural pre-disposition toward believing women to be inferior to men and that anything he might do to a woman is "okay". This is part and parcel of the problem here.

 

Rape by itself is about power and control. This guy had every intention of dominating this woman in every way possible, which in this case, included rape, but also he was willing to kill her, commit murder on her, to assert his complete power over her.

 

And I also want to point out, that the fact that he had "no prior criminal record" means absolutely nothing in the long run. There is a first time for everything, but in my opinion, given what we know about her injuries, this was NOT the first time this man had raped a woman and it was probably not the first time he attempted to kill a woman either. It was simply the first time he was caught. I have no doubt that he had done this before, probably a few to several times, in his home country of Indonesia, and had gotten away with it, because the laws there are not written to protect women (or children) from abuse. We need to understand this very clearly --- there is a huge difference between Indonesia (and similar countries) and countries of "the west" i.e. Canada, US, Germany, Europe in general.

Edited February 20, 2014 by artist47

[Mary Ellen]

As I stated on one of threads that was locked in order to force all posts into this thread, there was something that stood out in the (former) crew member's account of his atrocious actions. When he went to the victim's cabin he went out onto her balcony and fell asleep there. That doesn't strike me as the action of someone who is agitated by a purported insult, or anything. That is the action of someone entirely comfortable in what he is doing - or plans to do.

 

We wish the victim well in what is going to be a long recovery.

[artist47]

As I stated on one of threads that was locked in order to force all posts into this thread, there was something that stood out in the (former) crew member's account of his atrocious actions. When he went to the victim's cabin he went out onto her balcony and fell asleep there. That doesn't strike me as the action of someone who is agitated by a purported insult, or anything. That is the action of someone entirely comfortable in what he is doing - or plans to do.

We wish the victim well in what is going to be a long recovery.

 

 

Completely agree! 100 percent! It is also indicative to me, that he has done this before and had no worries about being caught.

He was so comfortable, as you so well put it, that he fell asleep. He planned this attack, knew exactly what he was going to do, because he had done it before, and was simply taking his predatory behaviour to the next level.

[LoveyHowell]

I have seen no indication that the victim was part of the charter group, or anything even to indicate this cruise was a full charter. Didn't HAL sell spots on board without disclosing the nature of the cruise? That to me means it is not a full charter. Usually if a ship is full charter you have to book through the agency that chartered the ship, not through the main company.

[Hlitner]

After reading some of the responses about it being a Charter, not a charter, a nudist cruise, not a nudist cruise...the word of Hillary Clinton come to mind... "what difference does it make." None of that has any relevance. There are no excuses, no waffling, no HAL cheerleading, etc.

 

What we have here is a male crewman who stalked this woman, raped this woman, tried to murder this women, etc. He should be strung up by his you know what and left to rot in some federal prison. As to the victim, we wish her the very best, hope she makes a quick recovery, and congratulate her for having the presence of mind to fight back and probably save her own life.

 

Hank

[Cruzin Terri]

I have seen no indication that the victim was part of the charter group, or anything even to indicate this cruise was a full charter. Didn't HAL sell spots on board without disclosing the nature of the cruise? That to me means it is not a full charter. Usually if a ship is full charter you have to book through the agency that chartered the ship, not through the main company.

 

The cruise was a full charter and one had to book through "Bare Necessities" travel group. HAL did not sell any spots separately.

I was not on this cruise--not my thing, but the first news release here on CC mentioned it was a full charter.

Terri

[artist47]

After reading some of the responses about it being a Charter, not a charter, a nudist cruise, not a nudist cruise...the word of Hillary Clinton come to mind... "what difference does it make." None of that has any relevance. There are no excuses, no waffling, no HAL cheerleading, etc.

 

What we have here is a male crewman who stalked this woman, raped this woman, tried to murder this women, etc. He should be strung up by his you know what and left to rot in some federal prison. As to the victim, we wish her the very best, hope she makes a quick recovery, and congratulate her for having the presence of mind to fight back and probably save her own life.

 

Hank

 

Agreed. 100 percent.