UK Gratuities

[ZAC1972]

Very well said. Many of the posters in this thread like to rant on about the injustice of how RCI pays their employees, and how they SHOULD pay them more ..... yada, yada, yada. BUT THEY DON'T. Plain and simple. You can discuss what they should do until the cows come home. When you decide to opt out of gratuities, you are shafting a real live individual person right then and there. This is not some theoretical discussion about economics - this is a crew member who worked really hard to make your vacation the best it could be, and then you shafted him under the guise of ideology. If you are participating on this thread, then you 100% know and understand that crew are paid a stipend of $25 per week, and the rest of their income comes from tips. You are knowingly accepting the service from that crew member, and then choosing to not pay them. That is low. Really, really low.

 

While tipping may not be a part of YOUR culture, it IS the way crew are paid on every single mass market cruise ship. So please do not tell us that you are removing the tips out of principal. This is not principal, it is cheapness plain and simple.

 

Well, that's the beauty of debate I suppose; some people will agree and others won't....and others will call others cheap and low and the like; human nature I guess.

 

Last time; I haven't 'shafted' anyone. It's nothing to do with culture or being 'mean' or 'low'. I just refuse to be taken for a ride. I've paid the cost required and I expect the company to pay their people (like I do with 99% of organizations in any other industry or sector). That's a pretty reasonable expectation in my book; especially when I'm paying a decent price in the first place. OK the companies don't and that is a fact, they choose to spend their profits instead on increasing their fleet and making more money. You could argue that such a desire is not unreasonable in terms of the objective of increasing profits (as with any private sector organization), but how that can then equate to it being my responsibility to step in for them is quite frankly beyond me I'm afraid. What's more, the fact that some seek to justify it here is incredible... but I respect their opinion.

 

Like I said, the psychology employed here evidently works well on many and that's weapons of influence in action. Like I also said, I have to really admire it.:)

[Ourusualbeach]

Well, that's the beauty of debate I suppose; some people will agree and others won't....and others will call others cheap and low and the like; human nature I guess.

 

Last time; I haven't 'shafted' anyone. It's nothing to do with culture or being 'mean' or 'low'. I just refuse to be taken for a ride. I've paid the cost required and I expect the company to pay their people (like I do with 99% of organizations in any other industry or sector). That's a pretty reasonable expectation in my book; especially when I'm paying a decent price in the first place. OK the companies don't and that is a fact, they choose to spend their profits instead on increasing their fleet and making more money. You could argue that such a desire is not unreasonable in terms of the objective of increasing profits (as with any private sector organization), but how that can then equate to it being my responsibility to step in for them is quite frankly beyond me I'm afraid. What's more, the fact that some seek to justify it here is incredible... but I respect their opinion.

 

Like I said, the psychology employed here evidently works well on many and that's weapons of influence in action. Like I also said, I have to really admire it.:)

 

Hypothetical question for you.

 

2 different cruises that are identical except for the pricing.

 

Cruise "A" has a price of $1000 all inclusive and including tips as the cruise line pays their employees a decent wage and they do not need to rely on tips.

 

Cruise "B" has a price of $830 but does not include tips. You are aware that daily gratuities will be added on board which have a total amount of $170 bringing the cost of cruise B to a total of $1000. You are also aware that the employees receive little compensation from the cruise line and rely on their tips as their income. You are also aware that on cruise "B" you can have the daily gratuities removed and that your total cost would then only be $830.

 

Which cruise do you take?

[yogimax]

especially when I'm paying a decent price in the first place.

 

We are ALL paying exactly the same "decent price."

 

So how is it that you think you are the exception and entitled to not pay tips?

I will be paying tips... the vast, vast majority of Cruise Critic members will be paying tips. Yet you will not because RCCL is buying new ships???

 

So please explain you justification. Your argument that the cruise lines spend their profits for new and bigger ships is just plain silly, a straw man argument that fails.

 

Again, why do you really believe you are the entitled exception?

[LMaxwell]

 

Again, why do you really believe you are the entitled exception?

 

Royal Caribbean is the one that tells him he is entitled to tip how he feels best. They provide a guideline for different service areas and then give the guest various options (prepay, pay afterwards, pay with cash, add more, give less, mix and match methods, etc.)

 

I didn't get the sense that the person you are addressing feels like a special exception just that they are taking a different option offered than you are. They've stated in this thread that they have tipped and will tip. You seem to conveniently miss that in your continued efforts to be a bully. Just like when I point out what the policy is you use that to badger me although you are 100% completely incorrect there too.

[galavant3]

Royal Caribbean is the one that tells him he is entitled to tip how he feels best. They provide a guideline for different service areas and then give the guest various options (prepay, pay afterwards, pay with cash, add more, give less, mix and match methods, etc.)

 

While I agree that it is possible to adjust your gratuities, Royal Caribbean does specify that if you receive unsatisfactory service, you may go to guest services and modify the amounts. I've never seen anywhere the option to not pay just because you disagree philosophically. I would hope that no one would claim bad service (when that wasn't the case) just to avoid the daily charge.

 

Q: Why would I need to modify my gratuity amounts? A: In the unlikely event that a guest on board being charged the daily automatic gratuity does not receive satisfactory service, the guest may request to modify the daily amount by visiting Guest Services during their cruise. Any modifications or adjustments to your gratuities are required to be requested before you depart your cruise.

Edited May 13, 2014 by galavant3

[ZAC1972]

Hypothetical question for you.

 

2 different cruises that are identical except for the pricing.

 

Cruise "A" has a price of $1000 all inclusive and including tips as the cruise line pays their employees a decent wage and they do not need to rely on tips.

 

Cruise "B" has a price of $830 but does not include tips. You are aware that daily gratuities will be added on board which have a total amount of $170 bringing the cost of cruise B to a total of $1000. You are also aware that the employees receive little compensation from the cruise line and rely on their tips as their income. You are also aware that on cruise "B" you can have the daily gratuities removed and that your total cost would then only be $830.

 

Which cruise do you take?

 

A good question in fairness. The answer depends on what I felt was a fair price for me to pay for a cruise and that depends on many factors; what my income is, how many in my family etc etc. It's the freedom of choice that anyone has when they choose to pay for any product, be it a burger in McDonalds or a cruise. On the examples you quote, if $1000 was the cost of the cruise per person I'd be delighted believe me! However, I suspect you were just stating that figure by way of example. :)

 

I do understand what you're driving at here as there are opinions expressed that state the cost of staff remuneration should be in with the price. I have no issue with that because it's how most profit making companies function. For example, Mars, Shell, Exon etc will obviously charge a sufficient amount for their products to enable them to be profitable and pay their people and there's no reason why the cruise industry shouldn't be the same.

 

What I do have an issue with is that I personally feel the cost I pay for a cruise is a fair price, which I understand is a little more in terms of sterling than the American equivalent (anecdotal, so in fairness I could be wrong on that particular point..). When you see the cruise industry profits and rate of growth forecast, I simply don't accept that they cannot currently pay their staff a decent wage and still maintain a more than respectable profit for their shareholders. If this was a case of any given cruise firm struggling to operate, then I could understand it.....it isn't a case of that at all and some on these forums still expect us to subsidise them even further. That's great if that's what they wish to do, good luck to them. I'm more than comfortable with my philanthropic/charitable contributions in general and I will continue to provide tips to not only cruise personnel, but anyone I consider deserves them in whatever sector. That's completely different to being expected to pay a service charge up front simply because the company won't act in what I personally feel is a responsible manner and thus pay their people properly (my opinion only).

 

I apologise if that answer appears to be a diversion, but it would be a superficial response otherwise.

Edited May 13, 2014 by ZAC1972

[ZAC1972]

We are ALL paying exactly the same "decent price."

 

So how is it that you think you are the exception and entitled to not pay tips?

I will be paying tips... the vast, vast majority of Cruise Critic members will be paying tips. Yet you will not because RCCL is buying new ships???

 

So please explain you justification. Your argument that the cruise lines spend their profits for new and bigger ships is just plain silly, a straw man argument that fails.

 

Again, why do you really believe you are the entitled exception?

 

Yogimax, I'm sure I've answered your questions in my several other posts and I think my view goes a little deeper than how you've articulated it above (not sure about the relevance of the reference to 'straw man' to be honest, but nor am I fussed). If you wish to ignore that opinion and simply castigate it as 'silly', that's fine by me; I've no issue with that at all. My objective is not to convert you or anyone else; it's simply expressing a view that I and evidently several others understand and have sympathy with.

[kruzgal]

We are not just paying a "decent price" - we are paying a very high price in the UK. I have just priced a 2 week trip on the Anthem next August during the school summer holidays and for the cheapest obstructed balcony it is £5712 (over $9000) for 2 people. And then we are expected to pay an additional $336 gratuities.....

[galavant3]

We are not just paying a "decent price" - we are paying a very high price in the UK. I have just priced a 2 week trip on the Anthem next August during the school summer holidays and for the cheapest obstructed balcony it is £5712 (over $9000) for 2 people. And then we are expected to pay an additional $336 gratuities.....

 

The gratuities amount to 3.7% of the fare. Plus, I imagine you'll be purchasing beverages and going on excursions. It is hard to sympathize with someone cruising for 2 weeks in a balcony cabin on the Anthem over paying an additional $336.

[kruzgal]

I won't be going...no way am I going to pay those prices!

[delirious9876]

We are not just paying a "decent price" - we are paying a very high price in the UK. I have just priced a 2 week trip on the Anthem next August during the school summer holidays and for the cheapest obstructed balcony it is £5712 (over $9000) for 2 people. And then we are expected to pay an additional $336 gratuities.....

I agree. The prices charged to sail on UK and European sailings are ridiculously astronomical.

 

I always take my tips off and don't pay any. My vacations costs enough.

 

I know about the staff, hard working spiel etc. etc. so please don't go there.

 

My choice. My right ( and I'm American !!!)

Edited May 13, 2014 by delirious9876

[NEMMRRC]

If cruises are so expensive in the UK, why purchase them there?

[Ourusualbeach]

A good question in fairness. The answer depends on what I felt was a fair price for me to pay for a cruise and that depends on many factors; what my income is, how many in my family etc etc. It's the freedom of choice that anyone has when they choose to pay for any product, be it a burger in McDonalds or a cruise. On the examples you quote, if $1000 was the cost of the cruise per person I'd be delighted believe me! However, I suspect you were just stating that figure by way of example. :)

 

I do understand what you're driving at here as there are opinions expressed that state the cost of staff remuneration should be in with the price. I have no issue with that because it's how most profit making companies function. For example, Mars, Shell, Exon etc will obviously charge a sufficient amount for their products to enable them to be profitable and pay their people and there's no reason why the cruise industry shouldn't be the same.

 

What I do have an issue with is that I personally feel the cost I pay for a cruise is a fair price, which I understand is a little more in terms of sterling than the American equivalent (anecdotal, so in fairness I could be wrong on that particular point..). When you see the cruise industry profits and rate of growth forecast, I simply don't accept that they cannot currently pay their staff a decent wage and still maintain a more than respectable profit for their shareholders. If this was a case of any given cruise firm struggling to operate, then I could understand it.....it isn't a case of that at all and some on these forums still expect us to subsidise them even further. That's great if that's what they wish to do, good luck to them. I'm more than comfortable with my philanthropic/charitable contributions in general and I will continue to provide tips to not only cruise personnel, but anyone I consider deserves them in whatever sector. That's completely different to being expected to pay a service charge up front simply because the company won't act in what I personally feel is a responsible manner and thus pay their people properly (my opinion only).

 

I apologise if that answer appears to be a diversion, but it would be a superficial response otherwise.

 

 

I can understand that you don't want to answer the question directly and that's OK as I really did not expect you to.

 

I do agree with you and I think that the majority of posters here would also agree that it would be nice if the company just raised their price by the gratuity amount and paid their staff a fair wage and if we felt that an extra tip was warranted that it was indeed a tip for the employee and not their wage. We also know that it is not going to happen as it would put the first company to do this at a pricing disadvantage in today's price conscious market.

 

You stated that companies such as Shell and Exxon charge a sufficient amount to pay their employees and yet still make a profit. Obviously they do as they are also reporting profits by far in excess of RCCL. Exxons lowest profit in the past 10 years was $15 billion which is 30 times higher than RCCL's average profit of $500 million. Their highest profit was over $40 billion. You cannot compare these companies to RCI.

 

Would you be willing to pay a higher price and cruise on RCI if they raised their fares to pay their staff or would you then look to another more inexpensive line that was relying on tips to pay their staff?

 

You also stated that they could use the money that they are using to purchase new ships and refurbishing others. This money is mostly acquired through debt that is financed over 20-30 years as is your mortgage using profits from that ship to pay the debt. Without refurbishing ships and building new innovative ships to attract new customers RCCL would have ceased to exist or be languishing as a cruise line. In this industry or ant other can you just stay the course and do the same old same old. Look at where Blockbuster and Kodak are now.

 

However you choose to tip is your choice and yours alone however I hope that you do so for reasons other than the feeling that the "company makes enough money to pay them" without looking at the actual financial statements to verify that assumption. I also hope that you have the courage to tell any employee who is earning their salary through tips that you do not feel that they are deserving of it should you choose not to tip them.

[Retired LEO]

All I have to say is..."You can't fix stupid".

[gerif]

I agree. The prices charged to sail on UK and European sailings are ridiculously astronomical.

 

I always take my tips off and don't pay any. My vacations costs enough.

 

I know about the staff, hard working spiel etc. etc. so please don't go there.

 

My choice. My right ( and I'm American !!!)

 

And yet in another thread you say this: "I tip nothing for room service. Just the standard tips charged to your sea pass account and 15% added to every bar check." Were you lying then or are you lying now?

[Biscuit1970]

I am still intrigued as to who decides who deserves to be tipped and who doesn't. If you buy a pair of NIKE's which are made in some sweat shop overseas do you also put some money in an envelope and send it over to the workers as the company are not paying them decent wages? They too work very long hours and have families etc to provide for.

 

I am just interested who deserves to be "stiffed" and who doesnt.

 

For what its worth i've cruised once on carnival spirit where the tips are included in the fare and will be sailing on Liberty in Europe later this year where I will be prepaying the recommended tips for all of my party as required - I may even add more from time to time -

 

I'm just confused as to who is deserving and who isnt

[caribbean sailor]

I am still intrigued as to who decides who deserves to be tipped and who doesn't. If you buy a pair of NIKE's which are made in some sweat shop overseas do you also put some money in an envelope and send it over to the workers as the company are not paying them decent wages? They too work very long hours and have families etc to provide for.

 

I am just interested who deserves to be "stiffed" and who doesnt.

 

For what its worth i've cruised once on carnival spirit where the tips are included in the fare and will be sailing on Liberty in Europe later this year where I will be prepaying the recommended tips for all of my party as required - I may even add more from time to time -

 

I'm just confused as to who is deserving and who isnt

 

It's your tip money you have to decide what works for you.Have a great next cruise.:)

[galavant3]

I am still intrigued as to who decides who deserves to be tipped and who doesn't. If you buy a pair of NIKE's which are made in some sweat shop overseas do you also put some money in an envelope and send it over to the workers as the company are not paying them decent wages? They too work very long hours and have families etc to provide for.

 

I am just interested who deserves to be "stiffed" and who doesnt.

 

For what its worth i've cruised once on carnival spirit where the tips are included in the fare and will be sailing on Liberty in Europe later this year where I will be prepaying the recommended tips for all of my party as required - I may even add more from time to time -

 

I'm just confused as to who is deserving and who isnt

 

I think the issue here is that cruise line employees take the job with the understanding and expectation that their primary source of income will be gratuities. You book a cruise understanding that and also that the daily charge will be added to your account.

 

That doesn't discount the fact that there are underpaid workers all over the world. To me, one difference is that cruise line workers are personally waiting on you with the expectation that they will be tipped. The Nike worker has no such expectation. Not to mention that tracking down the worker that actually made your shoes would be a challenge.

Edited May 14, 2014 by galavant3

[Alaskalovr]

While I agree with those who say RCL should be paying their staff a fair wage, the fact is that they don't. I would certainly be happy to pay a higher basic price and have gratuities included.

 

Personally I could not look the lovely waiters and cabin stewards in the eye if I was intending to remove their gratuities but that's just me:)

 

Julie

 

Just curious, since so many posters here seem to know exactly how the system works, what do you think would happen if Royal Caribbean raised a higher price and included gratuities? Do you think that all of that money would then just be divided among the staff and they would all be making more money ? If that money is included in the basic price it would then become a service charge or just revenue for the company. And then no staff would work for tips, they would be paid a salary and I doubt that it would come close to what they make when they work for tips. I have already read stories ( not able to say they are fact) that the cruise lines take a portion of the auto gratuities before dispersing that money. Cruise lines are businesses and are out to make money. Do you really believe they charge auto gratuities simply to guarantee the workers get all of their tips? I believe they would not be doing that unless it benefits them in some way. I would love for someone who has true knowledge to tell us how it works and then we could all make up our own minds with all of the facts.

[Alaskalovr]

sorry duplicate post

Edited May 14, 2014 by Alaskalovr

[kernow]

Just curious, since so many posters here seem to know exactly how the system works, what do you think would happen if Royal Caribbean raised a higher price and included gratuities? Do you think that all of that money would then just be divided among the staff and they would all be making more money ? If that money is included in the basic price it would then become a service charge or just revenue for the company. And then no staff would work for tips, they would be paid a salary and I doubt that it would come close to what they make when they work for tips. I have already read stories ( not able to say they are fact) that the cruise lines take a portion of the auto gratuities before dispersing that money. Cruise lines are businesses and are out to make money. Do you really believe they charge auto gratuities simply to guarantee the workers get all of their tips? I believe they would not be doing that unless it benefits them in some way. I would love for someone who has true knowledge to tell us how it works and then we could all make up our own minds with all of the facts.

 

 

Personally I do believe that the staff get their share of the auto gratuities, we always prepay and when I have asked cabin stewards or waiters if they get that money they have always told me that they do.

 

If it was mandatory and called a service charge why would RCL not use it to pay the staff, other lines already do this, when we last travelled on Costa it was automatically added and could not be removed and they seem to have no problem recruiting staff. We have also travelled on the British Thompson cruises where there is no tipping required so I assume the price we paid covers a decent wage for the staff. The waiters were some of the best we've had on any ship and were happy with their jobs.

 

As for the staff losing out with a set wage, I'm sure they will be many people like us who will always tip extra if they get great service.

 

Julie

[Pente85Camino]

As of 01Jan2014, the Florida minimum wage is $7.93/hour (£4.73) without tips. If you are an employee that receives tips, the minimum wage is $4.91/hour (£2.93). The Florida tipped wage applies to employees like waitresses, waiters, bartenders, valets, and other service employees who earn more then $30 (£17.89) in tips a month. Either way, would it be so bad to tip them even if they made minimum wage?

Edited May 14, 2014 by Pente85Camino

[Alaskalovr]

Personally I do believe that the staff get their share of the auto gratuities, we always prepay and when I have asked cabin stewards or waiters if they get that money they have always told me that they do.

And you have every right to that belief. Maybe I am cynical ( I prefer to believe I am a realist) and maybe you are optimistic.I understand that the waiters and cabin stewards have told you they get that money but I am not sure of how honest they are able to be about it. There are and have been claims brought against the cruise lines concerning this issue. One maritime lawyer who I have contacted told me that cruise line employees have told him that the auto gratuities are also being used to pay non-tip employees. Those would be workers who would have normally been paid out of the cruise lines revenue so that does in fact mean the employees who work for tips are now getting less from the auto gratuity. I agree it is difficult to figure out because none of us know for sure what is really happening.

If it was mandatory and called a service charge why would RCL not use it to pay the staff, other lines already do this, when we last travelled on Costa it was automatically added and could not be removed and they seem to have no problem recruiting staff. We have also travelled on the British Thompson cruises where there is no tipping required so I assume the price we paid covers a decent wage for the staff. The waiters were some of the best we've had on any ship and were happy with their jobs.

Because cruise lines are a business who are out to make money so why would they not keep some of the money for themselves. If the cruise lines were so concerned about their employees income, then why are are these employees so under payed now? It has been reported that none of the cruise lines have any trouble getting people to work for them. Bottom line is, most of the workers are probably making much more than they would at a comparable job at home, so they might very well still be very happy with their jobs as well.

 

As for the staff losing out with a set wage, I'm sure they will be many people like us who will always tip extra if they get great service.

 

As someone who was worked for tips myself I can tell you that most people tip the average going rate, some people tip more and some people tip less. There usually seemed to be many more who would tip more than would tip less or none. However in my experience I found that when a gratuity was added automatically,( like when there is a large group) it was much more common that no extra was given.

I don't know what the answer is to be sure that the employees on cruise lines are treated fairly. What I do know is each of us has to make our own decision and other people don't have a right to judge it especially when they have no proof that their way is even the best thing for the workers. It is no one's business really what or if I tip, but I don't have a problem telling you that I do tip but I don't like the auto gratuity, and I don't think it helps the people who are working for tips. And I also don't care what anyone else does or why as far as tipping goes. But I am offended by some people who post on these threads and resort to name calling.

I just felt the need to express my opinion that none of us knows exactly how it works. Thanks for listening.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Alaskalovr

[Ourusualbeach]

As of 01Jan2014, the Florida minimum wage is $7.93/hour (£4.73) without tips. If you are an employee that receives tips, the minimum wage is $4.91/hour (£2.93). The Florida tipped wage applies to employees like waitresses, waiters, bartenders, valets, and other service employees who earn more then $30 (£17.89) in tips a month. Either way, would it be so bad to tip them even if they made minimum wage?

 

Minimum wage laws do not apply to cruise ship employees as they are registered under a flag of convenience in this case the Bahamas.

[Grandma Dazzles]

As of 01Jan2014, the Florida minimum wage is $7.93/hour (£4.73) without tips. If you are an employee that receives tips, the minimum wage is $4.91/hour (£2.93). The Florida tipped wage applies to employees like waitresses, waiters, bartenders, valets, and other service employees who earn more then $30 (£17.89) in tips a month. Either way, would it be so bad to tip them even if they made minimum wage?

 

Thank you for the information. Realizing cruise ship employees are not Florida residents/employees, I think that this explanation may perhaps make sense to non-American residents who do not understand the "tipping culture" here and why people tip, both on a cruise and on land.