Muster drill question... Please dont flame me!

[leaveitallbehind]

Wrong. Oasis of the Seas is 3.4 passengers to every one crew member. Windstar and Paul Gauguin are 1.5 passenger to every one crew member. More than double the number of crew to passengers on the small ships.

 

Also count the stair cases. There are as many stair cases on the small ships as there ar on the large ones. One the small ships that means 150 people total per staircase. On the large ships, that's over 2000 per people on each staircase. Just think about that for a minute before you respond.

 

Whatever. Enjoy your cruises! And keep believing that smaller luxury ships means no mayhem with panicked passengers in an emergency.

Edited May 15, 2014 by leaveitallbehind

[ducklite]

How incredibly disappointing. :(

 

I guess we shall never meet.:rolleyes:

 

Thank God for small miracles.

[boogs]

But such mayhem as may occur will be committed but a much nicer class of passengers.

 

My experience is that when the wealthy get panicky, they are pretty ruthless about saving their own rear ends first and foremost. I envision a total free for all, all of them looking sharp wearing their designer outfits with nary a hair out of place, while they push, claw and climb over each other to be first on those lifeboats. :D

Edited May 15, 2014 by boogs

[LA_CA_GAL]

.... It seems that you are playing the fools game by sailing wth the masses.

 

Yes, quite the fool here.

 

I appreciate your open mindedness on what you conclude to be the fool.

[PTMary]

Thank God for small miracles.

 

What an utterly rude comment to make! :eek: Figures that with your elitist attitude about "the masses" that you would be prone to stoop that low. :rolleyes:

[ducklite]

Whatever. Enjoy! And keep believing that smaller luxury ships means no mayhem with panicked passengers in an emergency.

 

Think about it with the numbers. On a small ship there are an average of 450 people including crew if they are sailing full. On a large ship there are as many as 8500 people including crew. If 10% of 450 people panic, that's 45 people. No big deal. If 10% of 8500 people panic, that's 850 people--and that number does become a big deal.

[ducklite]

And less space for all that mayhem to take place in. Space on smaller ships isn't that much more generous than on the larger ships. The areas around the lifeboats are just as narrow as on larger ships.

 

Actually that is not the case. The decks around the life boat areas on the small ships were the same as on the large ships. Muster on the PG was done on deck a the lifeboat by the way.

[ducklite]

What an utterly rude comment to make! :eek: Figures that with your elitist attitude about "the masses" that you would be prone to stoop that low. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously? I was responding to an even ruder comment.

Edited May 15, 2014 by ducklite

[SantaFeFan]

Think about it with the numbers. On a small ship there are an average of 450 people including crew if they are sailing full. On a large ship there are as many as 8500 people including crew. If 10% of 450 people panic, that's 45 people. No big deal. If 10% of 8500 people panic, that's 850 people--and that number does become a big deal.

 

But those smaller ships will certainly have no shortage of pompous blowhards thumbing their noses at the masses on those larger ships. Recognize anyone?

[PTMary]

Seriously? I was responding to an even ruder comment.

 

Responding to a perceived rudeness with even more rudeness! Very mature of you. :(

Edited May 15, 2014 by PTMary

[leaveitallbehind]

Think about it with the numbers. On a small ship there are an average of 450 people including crew if they are sailing full. On a large ship there are as many as 8500 people including crew. If 10% of 450 people panic, that's 45 people. No big deal. If 10% of 8500 people panic, that's 850 people--and that number does become a big deal.

 

OK - got it. So only 45 people panicking is acceptable - no mayhem there at all on the smaller ship. When does it become an issue, at 46?? :rolleyes: As I said before, enjoy your cruises.

Edited May 15, 2014 by leaveitallbehind

[ducklite]

It's unfortunate that some people have gotten themselves in a knot because I pointed out the real dangers of trying to evacuate 8000 people and three or four staircases. I guess I've hit a nerve, because people are now trying to shoot the messenger. Frankly I 'd rather open your eyes to the reality of the situation and have you upset with me over it.

[ducklite]

OK - got it. So only 45 people panicking is acceptable - no mayhem there at all in the confines of the smaller ship. When does it become an issue, at 46?? :rolleyes: As I said before, enjoy your cruises.

 

 

It's not that you aren't capable of understanding the logistics, you are instead trying to twist them to make yourself feel better about the reality of trying to evacuate 8000 people in an emergency. Consider the staircases in the WTC on September 11th. People died because the staircases were too clogged and they couldn't get out. The same number of people were in each tower as sails in an Oasis class ship. Do the math and think about it.

[LA_CA_GAL]

It's unfortunate that some people have gotten themselves in a knot because I pointed out the real dangers of trying to evacuate 8000 people and three or four staircases. I guess I've hit a nerve, because people are now trying to shoot the messenger. Frankly I 'd rather open your eyes to the reality of the situation and have you upset with me over it.

 

I am sure many here are grateful for your fine conclusions on safety of small verses large ships, however, I believe some found some of your responses rather snotty.

 

But, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.

[LA_CA_GAL]

Something else that has not been considered comparing the small ships vs. the large ships.

 

On the small ships you could be with 500 passengers like ducklite.

 

OTOH, on the large ships, you could be with 6,000 passengers like me.:eek:

[BeagleOne]

I wonder how useful some of the crew members would be in an emergency? They're human just like the rest of us and while some of them I'm sure would do a good job, I wonder how many would panic. Remember the Oceanos, where most of the crew abandoned ship and the entertainment staff organized the evacuation?

 

On the 9/11 tangent, one of the saddest parts of that tragedy was the deaths of people who started to evacuate and then were told it was safe to return to their offices, and did so. Particularly those who were in the south tower after the north tower had already been hit. Contrast those stories with those of the Morgan Stanley staff, whose security director, Rick Rescorla, had come up with an evacuation plan after the first WTC bombing and held regular mandatory drills. About 3700 people were saved because of this plan, but sadly, Rescorla was not one of them; he was last seen going back up a flight of stairs looking for stragglers.

 

Anyhoo...always good to listen to the muster drill, flight attendants, etc., but also good to have your own contingency plan...and also for things like house fires, car accidents, etc.

[leaveitallbehind]

It's not that you aren't capable of understanding the logistics, you are instead trying to twist them to make yourself feel better about the reality of trying to evacuate 8000 people in an emergency. Consider the staircases in the WTC on September 11th. People died because the staircases were too clogged and they couldn't get out. The same number of people were in each tower as sails in an Oasis class ship. Do the math and think about it.

 

An excellent point that you are failing to appreciate as well. The staircases on the larger ships - while perhaps being the same in number as with the smaller ships - are also significantly larger as well (likely by a factor of several times) and are designed to handle the passenger load of that ship in an emergency. Lets give the marine architects a bit of credit! The ability to evacuate the passengers would function proportionately with each ship.

 

I am doing nothing to make myself "feel better" - please don't give yourself that much credit with your posts. And once again - and for the last time - enjoy your cruises!

Edited May 15, 2014 by leaveitallbehind

[ducklite]

An excellent point that you are failing to appreciate as well. The staircases on the larger ships - while perhaps being the same in number as with the smaller ships - are also significantly larger as well (likely by a factor of several times) and are designed to handle the passenger load of that ship in an emergency. Lets give the marine architects a bit of credit! The ability to evacuate the passengers would function proportionately with each ship.

 

I am doing nothing to make myself "feel better" - please don't give yourself that much credit with your posts. And once again - and for the last time - enjoy your cruises!

 

 

They are no wider. They have more floors. That's it. It would be comforting to know that the marine architects designed the ships so well when you are nine floors down behind 2000 or more people all trying to get up the stairs at once on a burning ship.

[boogs]

They are no wider. They have more floors. That's it. It would be comforting to know that the marine architects designed the ships so well when you are nine floors down behind 2000 or more people all trying to get up the stairs at once on a burning ship.

 

Wrong. They are quite a bit wider on the large ships. Please don't post nonsense based on your lack of knowledge. Most larger ships have several stairs - port, middle, and aft, while most smaller ships have a minimum of two - a number required by maritime law.

 

Cruise ships are designed to meet minimum evacuation duration times for all passengers to get off. The designers must provide adequate routes for a full evacuation, regardless of size, before they can be insured. This includes two different paths from any area in the ship, no dead end hallways, and complete evacuation in 30 minutes.

 

For more information on this, try reading published documents instead of making unsubstantiated claims. You can start with this document:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2014/cruiseshipforum/presentations/Panel5_Povel_Evacuation_Simulations.pdf

Edited May 15, 2014 by boogs

[Capt_BJ]

late to the party but a couple of comments:

 

As one familiar with the industry, who started cruising in the early 80's ... I can tell A LOT about a cruise line by how the 'muster' is run. Some lines go thru the motions ... and some others CARE. Wanna guess which lines I've sailed more than once? (and there are some that because of my friends in the Inspection business I NEVER sailed . . .)

 

The 'muster' offers an opportunity to verify the emergency muster list for each boat and the ship. In an emergency, wouldn't you like to know that this list is 100% accurate ... know that if you were not accounted for it would be known a search was necessary?

 

With regard to back to back cruisers or long cruises ... SOLAS says on cruises over 1 week, a drill shall be conducted WEEKLY. But SOLAS only makes recommendations and it up to the regulating agencies to enforce as able . . .

 

Lastly: industry and governments ARE discussing how the current rules and recommendations (SOLAS) actually apply to 'super ships' like FREEDOM and ALLURE class. Is there ANY chance that the life boats COULD be loaded in the time limits? ALLURE class was approved for much LARGER life boats ... is this realistic for loading times?

 

*****

me .... I worked in the industry and I pick my rides accordingly . . . but I ALWAYS attend the drill and APPLAUD the Masters who escort malefactors off as this is exactly what I would do.

[ducklite]

Wrong. They are quite a bit wider on the large ships. Please don't post nonsense based on your lack of knowledge. Most larger ships have several stairs - port, middle, and aft, while most smaller ships have a minimum of two - a number required by maritime law.

 

Cruise ships are designed to meet minimum evacuation duration times for all passengers to get off. The designers must provide adequate routes for a full evacuation, regardless of size, before they can be insured. This includes two different paths from any area in the ship, no dead end hallways, and complete evacuation in 30 minutes.

 

For more information on this, try reading published documents instead of making unsubstantiated claims. You can start with this document:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2014/cruiseshipforum/presentations/Panel5_Povel_Evacuation_Simulations.pdf

 

 

I have been on both large and small ships, and can assure you that the stairs are the same width in both. Have you been in both?

 

Both small ships I've been in have had three sets if stairs, fore, mid, aft.

 

The simulations of getting everyone off in 30 minutes are just that, and don't account for panicked people looking for their kids, passengers with mobility problems--which can number in the hundreds on big ships--who either try to take stairs and cause a major traffic jam or are stuck in their wheelchair waiting for help that May or may not ever come.

 

Again I present the WTC scenario. If everyone could get down the stairs in 30 minutes, the death toll would have been a fraction if what it was. Thousands perished in the stairwells because they just could not move.

[ducklite]

late to the party but a couple of comments:

 

As one familiar with the industry, who started cruising in the early 80's ... I can tell A LOT about a cruise line by how the 'muster' is run. Some lines go thru the motions ... and some others CARE. Wanna guess which lines I've sailed more than once? (and there are some that because of my friends in the Inspection business I NEVER sailed . . .)

 

The 'muster' offers an opportunity to verify the emergency muster list for each boat and the ship. In an emergency, wouldn't you like to know that this list is 100% accurate ... know that if you were not accounted for it would be known a search was necessary?

 

With regard to back to back cruisers or long cruises ... SOLAS says on cruises over 1 week, a drill shall be conducted WEEKLY. But SOLAS only makes recommendations and it up to the regulating agencies to enforce as able . . .

 

Lastly: industry and governments ARE discussing how the current rules and recommendations (SOLAS) actually apply to 'super ships' like FREEDOM and ALLURE class. Is there ANY chance that the life boats COULD be loaded in the time limits? ALLURE class was approved for much LARGER life boats ... is this realistic for loading times?

 

*****

me .... I worked in the industry and I pick my rides accordingly . . . but I ALWAYS attend the drill and APPLAUD the Masters who escort malefactors off as this is exactly what I would do.

 

 

We were required to attend muster both weeks in our 2012 back to back. It's 10 minutes that can save your life. Just like taking the time to find the exits in a plane or count the doorways to the stairs in a hotel. Common sense, nothing more, nothing less..

[chengkp75]

Wrong. They are quite a bit wider on the large ships. Please don't post nonsense based on your lack of knowledge. Most larger ships have several stairs - port, middle, and aft, while most smaller ships have a minimum of two - a number required by maritime law.

 

Cruise ships are designed to meet minimum evacuation duration times for all passengers to get off. The designers must provide adequate routes for a full evacuation, regardless of size, before they can be insured. This includes two different paths from any area in the ship, no dead end hallways, and complete evacuation in 30 minutes.

 

For more information on this, try reading published documents instead of making unsubstantiated claims. You can start with this document:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2014/cruiseshipforum/presentations/Panel5_Povel_Evacuation_Simulations.pdf

 

While most of your statements are correct, some are not, and the link you provide bears this out. The 30 minutes is for embarking and launching all boats, after the muster is completed. For any ship with more than 3 vertical fire zones, which includes nearly every cruise ship afloat, the total evacuation time allowed is 80 minutes. Just trying to keep the fight fair. :D

[navybankerteacher]

I have been on both large and small ships, and can assure you that the stairs are the same width in both.

 

 

 

Having reviewed deck plans which show relative scale, I am virtually certain that you are incorrect in stating that the stairs on HAL Vista Class (among other "mass" ships) are not any wider than those on Windstar, or comparable yacht-like small vessels.

 

I realize that I am demonstrating affrontery in daring to challenge the opinion of one whose customers in the maritime industry have advised about how cruise terminal porters are compensated ...one who has gone through snake infested swamps to effect heroic rescue ... one who has travelled, well dressed, through Europe for weeks with just a carry-on ...one who has left the masses to travel only in rarefied elegance ... but that's just me. I tend to gag at pomposity.

[BeagleOne]

So at what point can the crew decide to launch a boat even if some people assigned to it are missing? At what point do they decide to evacuate the 95% of the assigned people who are already there and ready to leave, instead of waiting for the 5% they can't find? At what point do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? (Yes, I'm a sci-fi geek.)

 

Also...what sort of methods do the crew use to see who is at the muster station and who is missing in a real emergency? Hand-held scanners for shipboard IDs if the passengers have brought them? What if someone shows up at the wrong station? Does that boat crew ideally communicate with the crew of the correct boat to say, "Mr. and Mrs. X are on our boat, so they're not missing"?

 

Just curious...I go to every muster drill, and pay attention...just wondering what the crew procedures are for lifeboat roll call if evacuation is really happening.

Edited May 15, 2014 by BeagleOne