Ex husband won't give consent. Need court order to cruise.

[sail7seas]

Ah so it really is 1984 :rolleyes:. How many parents abduct their kids by taking them on a cruise?

 

 

Maybe that cruise makes a stop in Costa Rica, Venezuela, or whichever other country one may wish to choose. What an easy way to get the children out of the U.S. and back to their family who live outside U.S.

 

Get off the ship in port and not return.

I won't get into what sorts of agreements one country or another may have with another as to authorities returning minors to U.S. as that is whole different subject.

 

[Mytime2014]

Ah so it really is 1984 :rolleyes:. How many parents abduct their kids by taking them on a cruise?

 

It only takes one to dictate outcomes for everyone else. Someone probably complained to the courts that XYZ cruise line allowed the other parental unit to take a child against their wishes and sued XYZ cruise line and won. More about litigation than big brother - kind of like the warning on your hemorrhoid medicine that you aren't supposed to eat it....

[Suska_83]

My attorney wants to know how the order should be worded. Can anyone share if they have successfully received a court order for travel and what exactly it states?

 

Ditto!, He/She should know what to say and draw the correct papers to present to court.

[spookwife]

Ah so it really is 1984 :rolleyes:. How many parents abduct their kids by taking them on a cruise?

 

It'ls been done before. all you need to do is miss scheduled departure.

 

or book an open ended cruise and fail to fly home

[jcl410]

Actually...this is completely irrelevant. The cruise line can establish any requirement they desire when it comes to who they allow to board THEIR ship. After all...taking a cruise vacation is not a Constitutionally protected right.

 

 

True, however I *did* look at CCL's website (which the OP is taking), and they said this:

 

---

 

When minors (18 and under) are NOT traveling with a relative, we strongly recommend bringing an original signed letter from the absent parent/legal guardian authorizing the minor to travel. This will expedite processing by the Department of Homeland Security. Please note that a notarized letter to this effect is required if debarking with children in Mexico.

 

----

 

Now, they don't even require (it is strongly rccomended) a letter from a parent if you're taking a child NOT related to you at all. So,a a single parent isn't a problem.

 

RCI's wording is better. They say if the lone parent's last name matches the child's, then no documentation required from the other parent; otherwise you need bridging documents to prove you're the parent.

 

 

BTW - If you are disembarking in Mexico - not a port stop - You do need both parents permission, or court order, death cert., etc to allow entry into Mexico.

 

Aloha,

 

John

[Jane2357]

While I understand that you want to take your children on this cruise - given the difficulties that your Ex is willing to throw your way - why not save all the lawyer fees and take the family to Walt Disney World or some other awesome vacation spot. Then save the cruising for you and your S.O.? Some times the best revenge is to not let them get to you.

[smeyer418]

I am an attorney but not a matrimonial one but even I know how to word an petition for a court order to allow you to take the kids on a cruise without the incarcerated husbands consent. While I would also consider filing at the same time for sole legal custody and decision making for the children, I would hesitate to do that since that would probably get his opposition while a simple order to allow the travel might not. You should also talk with a lawyer who knows how to terminate his parental rights.

 

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/publications/inc_incarceratedparents.pdf

 

http://www.law.fsu.edu/journals/lawreview/frames/252/flowfram.html

http://dc.statelibrary.sc.gov/bitstream/handle/10827/8519/CLC_Termination_of_Parental_Rights_2007.pdf?sequence=1

rule in SC.

Most family courts have pro se(without a lawyer) helping people who can help you with what you need

Note that international child abduction treaties have high standards on consent.

also note this is not legal advice but musing on cruise critic

Edited June 20, 2014 by smeyer418

[donaldsc]

Seems like you are paying your attorney for this informationand are not getting your monies worth. First thing that I would do it to fire your attorney and get a better one.

 

DON

 

The second thing to do would be to try to find someone who is in prison w your ex who could exert a little pressure on your ex to get him to sign.

 

DON

[ldubs]

This thread has me scratching my head. I took my kids on several cruises without any written consent from my ex. Never was questioned by anyone at any time or in any county. I seriously question that there is any US legal requirement that one parent have written permission from the other parent to take there child on a cruise. I could see it happening if there was some kind of court order following a nasty divorce, but otherwise wonder what makes you think you need this.

 

BTW, we obtained a passport for my under age step-daughter without any need to involve the father. In fact, we obtained the passport specifically to prevent her father from getting one for her.

 

I understand the abduction issue, but this just seems odd. I think the best advise given is to check with the cruise line.

 

PS: get a new attorney.

 

PPS: So sorry, I need to correct my comment re my step daughter's passport. My wife had sole custody of our step daughter.

Edited June 20, 2014 by ldubs

[notentirelynormal]

This thread has me scratching my head. I took my kids on several cruises without any written consent from my ex. Never was questioned by anyone at any time or in any county. I seriously question that there is any US legal requirement that one parent have written permission from the other parent to take there child on a cruise. I could see it happening if there was some kind of court order following a nasty divorce, but otherwise wonder what makes you think you need this.

 

BTW, we obtained a passport for my under age step-daughter without any need to involve the father. In fact, we obtained the passport specifically to prevent her father from getting one for her.

 

I understand the abduction issue, but this just seems odd. I think the best advise given is to check with the cruise line.

 

PS: get a new attorney.

 

PPS: So sorry, I need to correct my comment re my step daughter's passport. My wife had sole custody of our step daughter.

 

Not sure how long ago this all happened but rest assured that since 9/11 the game has changed. Tons of us crossed the US/Canadian border with just a how-do-you-do. Now passports and lots of questions. I have taken my grandson on 3 cruises without his parents. I was asked for documentation from both US and Canadian officials at the port of boarding, at the port of disembarkation and the airport. I have driven across the border with my 4 grandchildren and required notarized permission from the parents WITH their passports. My brother flew with his son to Puerto Rico and was denied boarding until he could prove he had the legal right to travel alone with his son. He showed his custody papers and then they asked for the notary copy of permission from the ex.

 

Go to court and get this taken care of for good.

[iheartbda]

Not sure how long ago this all happened but rest assured that since 9/11 the game has changed. Tons of us crossed the US/Canadian border with just a how-do-you-do. Now passports and lots of questions. I have taken my grandson on 3 cruises without his parents. I was asked for documentation from both US and Canadian officials at the port of boarding, at the port of disembarkation and the airport. I have driven across the border with my 4 grandchildren and required notarized permission from the parents WITH their passports. My brother flew with his son to Puerto Rico and was denied boarding until he could prove he had the legal right to travel alone with his son. He showed his custody papers and then they asked for the notary copy of permission from the ex.

 

Go to court and get this taken care of for good.

In addition, get a new lawyer or at LEAST have him call the cruise line to see exactly what wording they want. He should know how to write a petition for a court order.

[ldubs]

Not sure how long ago this all happened but rest assured that since 9/11 the game has changed. Tons of us crossed the US/Canadian border with just a how-do-you-do. Now passports and lots of questions. I have taken my grandson on 3 cruises without his parents. I was asked for documentation from both US and Canadian officials at the port of boarding, at the port of disembarkation and the airport. I have driven across the border with my 4 grandchildren and required notarized permission from the parents WITH their passports. My brother flew with his son to Puerto Rico and was denied boarding until he could prove he had the legal right to travel alone with his son. He showed his custody papers and then they asked for the notary copy of permission from the ex.

 

Go to court and get this taken care of for good.

 

Yep, my experience taking the kids was prior to 9/11. The need for this kind of regulation sure sours things. But I cannot disagree that if it protects one child it is worth it. Too bad there are people like the Op's ex who take advantage of this for their own mean hearted reasons.

[Cruisin' Chick]

Not to hijack this thread, but any competent attorney would already know how to craft a standard court order and devise the appropriate wording without looking for someone on CC to do it for them pro bono. I'd get a new attorney.

 

Just started reading this thread early Saturday morning and after just the first post felt the same as many of you. That the lawyer should be able to consult one or two family law books and then be able to write the petition. Even if someone here has gone through the same experience, it might not truly be the same.

 

But if the OP does hit a roadblock and is going through an step-adoption process, why not wait til after that process is completed and in the meantime, as someone suggested, go on a vacation in the states? Go on the cruise during the next school break or next summer.

 

When I traveled with my wife and stepson, we had 3 separate last names. When we flew into Canada, the Immigration questioned it. My wife showed her the Divorce Decree that gave her sole custody. That's all we needed. (BTW - That was the only time any one asked to see any sort of documentation.)

 

 

I have yet to find a US Government requirement that both parents must consent to foreign travel. CBP does strongly suggest it, but unless your divorce settlement gave your ex veto power for overseas trips you should be good.

 

Double check with your lawyer, but if current husband is able to adopt, then I doubt that there would be any problem going on the trip.

 

Aloha,

 

John

 

Hmmm, there has been reports on CC that some parents (and grandparents) have been denied boarding when they don't have all of their documentation from both parents. As some have said, this is a different world than say 20 or 30 years ago. Not just because of 9-11, but also the unfortunate number of cases of parental abductions.

[greatam]

You say your ex-husband is in prison. That means that he has foregone his custody rights and visitation rights depending on the length of the incarceration all you have to do is ask a judge for 100% full custody and he will pretty much grant it to you if your ex has 5 years or more to do, especially since he can't show up to the hearing! Then you don't need to worry about the consent issue for this or future dealings.

 

Where did you get such a crazy idea??? There are so many things wrong with this statement I am just totally astounded.

 

1. Just because someone goes to prison certainly does NOT mean they give up either custody or visitation UNLESS they are in prison for domestic violence or child abuse. In fact, most courts and probation/parole offices heavily ENCOURAGE family visits ( unless the kids are very, very young) because sooner or later Dad will very likely be out of prison and a return to normal life is a big inducement to cut the recidivism rate.

 

2. What does 5 years have to do with anything? Lifers and death row inmates are still allowed visitation with their children UNLESS there is a prohibition in the prison itself or the inmate has done something in prison which prevents visitation with ANYONE.

 

3. People in prison are almost automatically brought into court for ANYTHING if there is a subpoena issued. For a VERY good example of just how far this can be carried, watch the movie "American Me" with Edward James Olmos. TRUE story for the most part. Attorneys for various gang members got their clients subpoened for various and sundry legal issues from prisons all over CA with the underlying plan to get the gang leaders together in the same location so the gang leaders could plan a gang action (the killing of Ellen Delia). The attorneys had no idea what was going on-just that their clients all needed to be together at one place and they made it happen.

 

 

Everyone states get a new attorney-that the OP has a incompetent attorney. NOT necessarily. The OP MAY be trying to save a few dollars in legal fees by presenting her attorney with a "pre written" version of the legalese of a parental consent form that is specific to HER cruise line. Yes, I am a non practicing attorney but very often, I write the brief or word the letter before I send it to the company attorney for tweaks and to send it on to the respective person it ultimately needs to go to. Saves me dollars and a lot of time for the company attorney to have to dig through very often conflicting laws. No incompetence in our company attorney-just a way to save time and dollars.

Edited June 21, 2014 by greatam

[KirkNC]

Maybe that cruise makes a stop in Costa Rica, Venezuela, or whichever other country one may wish to choose. What an easy way to get the children out of the U.S. and back to their family who live outside U.S.

 

Get off the ship in port and not return.

I won't get into what sorts of agreements one country or another may have with another as to authorities returning minors to U.S. as that is whole different subject.

 

 

I am sure it has been done hence the over reach by the need to have something signed by the non-present parent. Life and the world have all kinds of dangers but we can't make rules to eliminate all of them.

[megr1125]

This really needs to be sorted out by the attorneys and a judge...there is some good advice here, and some really stupid ideas as well.....

 

OP, good luck, but your lawyer should be able to do this

 

HERE IS A LINK to info on the US Customs and Border Protection site...you can probably click around there and get some sort of idea of what info would be needed

[notentirelynormal]

Everyone states get a new attorney-that the OP has a incompetent attorney. NOT necessarily. The OP MAY be trying to save a few dollars in legal fees by presenting her attorney with a "pre written" version of the legalese of a parental consent form that is specific to HER cruise line. Yes, I am a non practicing attorney but very often, I write the brief or word the letter before I send it to the company attorney for tweaks and to send it on to the respective person it ultimately needs to go to. Saves me dollars and a lot of time for the company attorney to have to dig through very often conflicting laws. No incompetence in our company attorney-just a way to save time and dollars.

 

I really think this might be spot on. I had a 10 year legal case in Oregon. Started out as a probate challenge, ended up in Federal court with one of the two accused suing me for a few things. At the same time the same court issue was going on in British Columbia. All the other guy's lawyers hated him and didn't suggest much to help. My attorneys on the other hand let me do the timelines, sort through the massive papers filed and make notes (no one know your own case like you do). He, too, let me write the first drafts, give ideas, write letters, etc. Their goal was to help me keep my bill as small as possible.

[sail7seas]

I am wondering if OP has an attorney. Of course, I don't know but I have this odd feeling she was hoping to avoid legal bills and prepare an agreement on her own.

That is usually a very bad idea and I sincerely hope I am wrong.

 

I hope OP gets all these probate and family matters worked out well with the least stress/cost possible.

[greatam]

I am wondering if OP has an attorney. Of course, I don't know but I have this odd feeling she was hoping to avoid legal bills and prepare an agreement on her own.

That is usually a very bad idea and I sincerely hope I am wrong.

 

I hope OP gets all these probate and family matters worked out well with the least stress/cost possible.

 

I always respect your opinions. BUT in this case you missed some of the wording.

 

1. The OP states she has an attorney

 

2. There should be no PROBATE issues as it appears Mom, Dad and Step Dad are all alive.

 

3. IF there is truly a step parent adoption in progress, the ONLY way I know of for that to happen is if the biological parent has either relinquished parental rights or had them taken away by a court for neglect, abuse or another reason. So that part of the OP's posts is very, very confusing. In most states, you can't even start a step parent adoption UNTIL parental rights are relinquished or the OP has both legal and physical custody (which she obviously doesn't or there would be no need for the consent form).

 

4. I truly believe the attorney (and the OP) are trying to keep the legal bills at a reasonable amount of money. CCL may require one type of form (and wording), RCCL, another and X, something completely different. I have no idea but the forms COULD BE substantially different. Hence, the request to produce the EXACT wording for a specific cruise line.

 

And yes, attorneys that are worth their salt and not just after a few bucks wracking up the hourly charges will very often allow clients to participate and help if they feel their client is capable. As notentirelynormal pointed out, rarely does an attorney know the truly fine points of a case as well as the client. If they don't ask the right questions to begin with, they will NEVER get the correct answers.

 

Just a little anecdote:

 

Got sued by the neighbor in Missouri about 10 years ago over a fencing issue. Original agreement (which continued to us when we purchased the farm) stated WE would maintain the fence. The problem-there was NEVER a fence. The two previous owners had never put it in. So what was there to maintain? The neighbor wanted me to PUT IN THE FENCE and then maintain it. Just to rip out about 20 acres of timber and shore up our lake where the fence line was SUPPOSED to be was in the neighborhood of $20,000, not counting putting in the fence down through heavy timber and very steep Northern MO hills. And if we put up the fence where the neighbor wanted it, his cattle could have peed in our lake which is our drinking water and tests cleaner than the county water because there is absolutely NO runoff other than from our own property, which is just rain water. Our own cattle are a long way from our lake (the other end of our property)

 

My attorney in MO told me to start the research so he didn't wrack up big time bills just to try to find something that proved our point. Two days at the ASU law library, Lexis/Nexus, every law journal I could find and finally, actually getting out the very old books and I found an 1893 case IN MISSOURI that was almost a duplicate of my 2004 case. Cliff Notes worked well in law school for some stuff (particularly contract law).

 

That wasn't the case here. I needed an actual case, not just an overview of the law. SO I saved myself not only about $40,000 for the stupid fence, pollution of my drinking water source (which would have resulted in another lawsuit and more legal fees) and about $10,000 in legal bills for two days of my time, a motel bill and food. The judge was totally astounded we found that case. Needless to say, we won, the neighbors cattle are on the other side of the draw and I don't have to worry about polluted drinking water. So taking matters into your own hands with the oversight of an attorney very often results in a great outcome if you have a clue what you are doing.

 

I wish the OP well.

 

And as smeyer418 pointed out, this is not legal advice but just pointing someone in the correct direction.

Edited June 21, 2014 by greatam

[smeyer418]

I always respect your opinions. BUT in this case you missed some of the wording.

 

1. The OP states she has an attorney

 

2. There should be no PROBATE issues as it appears Mom, Dad and Step Dad are all alive.

 

3. IF there is truly a step parent adoption in progress, the ONLY way I know of for that to happen is if the biological parent has either relinquished parental rights or had them taken away by a court for neglect, abuse or another reason. So that part of the OP's posts is very, very confusing. In most states, you can't even start a step parent adoption UNTIL parental rights are relinquished or the OP has both legal and physical custody (which she obviously doesn't or there would be no need for the consent form).

 

4. I truly believe the attorney (and the OP) are trying to keep the legal bills at a reasonable amount of money. CCL may require one type of form (and wording), RCCL, another and X, something completely different. I have no idea but the forms COULD BE substantially different. Hence, the request to produce the EXACT wording for a specific cruise line.

 

And yes, attorneys that are worth their salt and not just after a few bucks wracking up the hourly charges will very often allow clients to participate and help if they feel their client is capable. As notentirelynormal pointed out, rarely does an attorney know the truly fine points of a case as well as the client. If they don't ask the right questions to begin with, they will NEVER get the correct answers.

 

Just a little anecdote:

 

Got sued by the neighbor in Missouri about 10 years ago over a fencing issue. Original agreement (which continued to us when we purchased the farm) stated WE would maintain the fence. The problem-there was NEVER a fence. The two previous owners had never put it in. So what was there to maintain? The neighbor wanted me to PUT IN THE FENCE and then maintain it. Just to rip out about 20 acres of timber and shore up our lake where the fence line was SUPPOSED to be was in the neighborhood of $20,000, not counting putting in the fence down through heavy timber and very steep Northern MO hills. And if we put up the fence where the neighbor wanted it, his cattle could have peed in our lake which is our drinking water and tests cleaner than the county water because there is absolutely NO runoff other than from our own property, which is just rain water. Our own cattle are a long way from our lake (the other end of our property)

 

My attorney in MO told me to start the research so he didn't wrack up big time bills just to try to find something that proved our point. Two days at the ASU law library, Lexis/Nexus, every law journal I could find and finally, actually getting out the very old books and I found an 1893 case IN MISSOURI that was almost a duplicate of my 2004 case. Cliff Notes worked well in law school for some stuff (particularly contract law).

 

That wasn't the case here. I needed an actual case, not just an overview of the law. SO I saved myself not only about $40,000 for the stupid fence, pollution of my drinking water source (which would have resulted in another lawsuit and more legal fees) and about $10,000 in legal bills for two days of my time, a motel bill and food. The judge was totally astounded we found that case. Needless to say, we won, the neighbors cattle are on the other side of the draw and I don't have to worry about polluted drinking water. So taking matters into your own hands with the oversight of an attorney very often results in a great outcome if you have a clue what you are doing.

 

I wish the OP well.

 

And as smeyer418 pointed out, this is not legal advice but just pointing someone in the correct direction.

LOL and we who went to law school thank you. I have been thinking about this since I posted and there is nothing wrong with the attorney asking the client exactly what would the cruise line want the order to say, and whether they had a preferred wording.

and speaking of cows...

and every law school students has to atone for the sins of Rose of Aberlone. still the law 1887. (mutual misstake)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_v._Walker

[greatam]

LOL and we who went to law school thank you. I have been thinking about this since I posted and there is nothing wrong with the attorney asking the client exactly what would the cruise line want the order to say, and whether they had a preferred wording.

and speaking of cows...

and every law school students has to atone for the sins of Rose of Aberlone. still the law 1887. (mutual misstake)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_v._Walker

 

Hi Sid

 

No mutual mistake in my case. The previous owners both agreed to the fence. They just never got around to putting it in-two basically absentee owners who rarely went to either property. One sold off the timber from his property (he owned a saw mill in Southern IA and hired local guys to cut the logs) and the guy we bought the farm from scraped off timber from every bit of land he could get his hands on, sold it and resold it for farm land when farm land prices started climbing to astronomical levels in the early 80's in the Midwest.

 

And as I posted, Cliff Notes did it for me through most of contract law. The one class I absolutely hated. The professor was about 5 feet tall, sat behind his desk with his feet up on the desk and had us READ cases out loud. NO discussion, nothing. More like Tom, Dick and Sally in first grade. And he ended up a Superior Court Judge in LA county. Must have had some powerful connections because I never learned a darned thing. BARELY passed the Bar in contracts.

 

Now you want to discuss criminal law-two of the best teachers in any law school in the country-Vince Bugliosi and Aaron Stovitz (the first Manson prosecutor who was fired by the DA) had just finished the Manson trial and every class was related DIRECTLY to what had happened in court on any given day. The education was fascinating and relevant. Aaron Stovitz had graduated from Southwestern where I went to school as well as Marcia Clark. Mr. Gloves (Chris Darden) should have gone to school there. I remember so well-DO NOT ask a question you DO NOT know the answer to. Guess he missed that class. LOL

[cruisead]

Ah so it really is 1984 :rolleyes:. How many parents abduct their kids by taking them on a cruise?

 

All it takes is one parent to walk off the ship in Mexico with their kids, and then not return, to put the cruise line in a whole lot of trouble. Doesn't have to make sense, but the non-custodial parent could stir up a lot of poo for the cruise line.

[rvsullivan]

An earlier post talks about debarking as if it is interchangeable with disembark. It is not. If you want to get off the ship in Mexico specifically and there are other countries with the same requirement, read this:

 

If Only One Parent or Legal Guardian Is Traveling

 

Mexico is especially vigilant about child protection. A parent or legal guardian traveling alone with a child to Mexico must have a notarized letter granting the absent parent or guardian's permission for the trip - don't leave home without it or you will be turned away. (Legal guardians should also be prepared to show official proof of guardianship.) Legally separated and divorced parents should also carry a copy of the document that details the legal custody arrangements. Single parents can also show official documentation that there is no other parent (such as a birth certificate that does not list a father, or the absent parent's death certificate).

 

You can find many who will tell you that you can do it and that they did it. Mexico is not the place to find out you have an issue.

Why not do as the cruise line requests and get the appropriate documents?