A salutary lesson for us all(Insurance)

[BenMurphy]

Hi All

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/

 

 

I found this on Cruise Law News.this article is about the need to take out insurance as soon as the cruise is booked .

Although they are talking about Oceania I imagine all cruise lines take this attitude to cancelled cruises.

 

Regards,

Josie

[hypercafe]

They use NCL and Oceania as examples however every line I know of has the same policy. It would be fairer if the line only got to keep money it lost due to the cancelation however it is what it is. I wonder if the American Flag ed ship NCL has is the same?

 

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Edited March 8, 2015 by hypercafe

[LHT28]

All cruise lines have cancellation penalties

People must read the terms & conditions to see when they kick in & what you get back

If you paid the cruise line to book the air then they get the refund if any

 

When we had to cancel the day before our cruise we got the port fees refunded ....I was smart enough to buy cancellation insurance & got all my $$ back

 

 

 

Sensationalism at it's best

[bitob]

The cruise line is a profit making entity. They are not our insurer. We have the responsibility to insure our own trips.

 

Nothing in the contract states that if the line is able to book your cabin you will get a refund Hotels do the same. The writer used a particularly sad story involving cancer. What if a passenger just didn't feel like going. Should she get a refund if the line rebooks her cabin?

 

No one wants to take responsibility for anything nowadays.

[hondorner]

I don't understand why Attorney Walker chose to excoriate only Oceania and NCL; it's as if he has a vendetta against them. There are also some misstatements of fact in the blog post. For example, airfare is not broken out separately in Oceania fares but is included in the total fare if Oceania does the booking (which was apparent in this case). Oceania also, due to it's contracts, does not pay anything close to $14,000 for airfare. The article does not say how close to the cruise the couple had to cancel, but if it was more than about 45 days, Oceania had not even paid for the air ticket.

 

Also, NCL does not own Oceania, NCL Holdings owns Prestige Cruise Holdings, which includes Oceania. Nitpicking? Not in the case of any attorney writing the blog, who should know better and word more accurately if they're any kind of lawyer.

 

I found the article very self-serving, manipulating emotions with the intent of attracting law clients to sue cruise lines.

[newlondon]

Hondorner, I posted a comment on Attorney Walker's page. You are so right, he is an advocacy lawyer who if he were writing the contracts would do it the same way. I am being careful about what I say as this is a public forum. I feel PCH, however, is doing their fiduciary duty to their shareholders by maximizing profit; and individuals such as myself have a clear choice about taking insurance or not. Personally I never have and am many thousands ahead but that could change at some point.

[rallydave]

I don't understand why Attorney Walker chose to excoriate only Oceania and NCL; it's as if he has a vendetta against them. There are also some misstatements of fact in the blog post. For example, airfare is not broken out separately in Oceania fares but is included in the total fare if Oceania does the booking (which was apparent in this case). Oceania also, due to it's contracts, does not pay anything close to $14,000 for airfare. The article does not say how close to the cruise the couple had to cancel, but if it was more than about 45 days, Oceania had not even paid for the air ticket.

 

Also, NCL does not own Oceania, NCL Holdings owns Prestige Cruise Holdings, which includes Oceania. Nitpicking? Not in the case of any attorney writing the blog, who should know better and word more accurately if they're any kind of lawyer.

 

I found the article very self-serving, manipulating emotions with the intent of attracting law clients to sue cruise lines.

 

A couple of thoughts regarding your comments. Think you are not thinking about the people with the $14K airfare is that they probably deviated and upgraded to Business Class which for a Pacific Cruise would be a significant amount of money which could approach the $14K especially if they had more than 2 people in their suite.

 

Regarding your statement about Prestige Cruise Holdings, while I can't be totally sure, the most recent releases since FDR took over NCLH do not mention PCH at all nor showing anyone in charge of PCH or reporting to FDR and simply that Montague is President of Oceania and Regent which might mean PCH no longer exists and that NCLH (not NCL) owns NCL, Oceania and Regent.

 

About the motives of the lawyer, have to agree with your assessment although, that pretty much describes most lawyers :D

Edited March 8, 2015 by rallydave

[Paulchili]

There is no question that the law as it is written is on the side of Oceania (and other cruise lines) to protect themselves from willy-nilly cancellations. However, I don't believe that there is anything there to prevent Oceania (and other cruise lines) from making exceptions when they deem them to be appropriate. This would not be unlike Oceania's regulation (law?) regarding bringing alcohol on-board. The regulation is there to protect themselves from potential abuse by someone who may become intoxicated but it is not enforced under normal circumstances.

I don’t believe it would be so outrageous to refund a passenger’s fare under some dire circumstances (like death or terminal illness diagnosed just before the cruise) as long as the cabin was filled at the same (or higher rate). Rather, it would be a show of compassion and charity from a for-profit corporation (as long as the assets of a profit making company are protected –as they would be in a case where the cabin is resold). These decisions could be made by the cruise line on a case-by-case basis.

That said, at the present time it is our choice and responsibility to obtain insurance or suffer the consequences.

JMO

PS Have to agree with Dave's last comment (true for many but fortunately not all lawyers) :D

Edited March 8, 2015 by Paulchili

[hondorner]

Dave, there may not be any current mention of Prestige, but it is fact that NCLH purchased PCH, and got Oceania and REgent in the bargain. Regardless, he stated that "NCL" owned Oceania, and that's not true -- NCLH owns NCL, Oceania and Regent. If he was in the least knowledgeable and cared about accuracy, he would have so stated. It's entirely possible he knows that fact, but "dumbed down" his article to appeal to the less knowledgeable.

 

Paul, it is certainly possible, and even probable, that a cruise line may make exactly such an accommodation in certain situations. However, just like they can never officially admit the lack of enforcement of the alcohol policy, they can never acknowledge such acts of mercy, and it would certainly behoove anyone who had received such largesse to remain quiet about it.

[Paulchili]

 

Paul, it is certainly possible, and even probable, that a cruise line may make exactly such an accommodation in certain situations. However, just like they can never officially admit the lack of enforcement of the alcohol policy, they can never acknowledge such acts of mercy, and it would certainly behoove anyone who had received such largesse to remain quiet about it.

 

Don,

I suspect that, as usually, you are correct :)

[Floridiana]

It would be fairer if the line only got to keep money it lost due to the cancelation however it is what it is. I wonder if the American Flag ed ship NCL has is the same?

 

Sent from my SM-T320 using Forums mobile app

 

Yes, the same. My neighbor booked their Hawaii cruise, no insurance. She broke her leg and couldn't go, lost the money.

[Winner]

Insurance by definition is to ensure that your money is refunded (by the insurer) if anything goes awry. Even Mr. Walker states that the law is "technically" correct; the law is correct, in actuality, not just technically.

 

If one chooses to self-insure, be prepared to pay the consequences.

 

I NEVER buy a cruise line's insurance. Travel agents have contacts with non-cruise line insurers.

[LHT28]

Why am I not surprised to see a familiar name under the comments on the website ;)

 

I guess Mr Walker will have more clients

Edited March 8, 2015 by LHT28

[newlondon]

I must say I am surprised that no one has picked up on my comment that cruise lines are doing their fiduciary duty to their shareholders. As a publicly held company it is appropriate to maximize profits. I acknowledge that most corporations have charitable gift committees, but I also know of shareholders protesting amounts and recipients.

A shame Attorney Walker doesn't recognize his vulnerability.

[LHT28]

At one time TA's here had to offer trip insurance if the client did not want it

You had to sign a waiver saying you were offered it & declined

 

Maybe they should have this when you book travel these days

 

People need to take some responsibility ..read the terms & conditions on the contract between you & the travel provider, read & understand the cancellation penalties

If you do not agree with the the penalties then do not use that travel provider

 

I find the article leaves out a lot of facts.....convenient ???

 

When did they book?

When did they find out the DX?

When did they cancel?

Did they try to get ins & could not because of the DX?

 

If you want to take a chance and self insure why complain when things go belly up ...it was your choice

 

 

Off my rant

[Leejnd4]

Why am I not surprised to see a familiar name under the comments on the website ;)

 

I guess Mr Walker will have more clients

Yeah...I saw that too. Same misleading story about the 50% discount.

 

Pathetic.

 

I'm of two minds on this situation. Yes it is perfectly legal to keep the cruise fare. They are not obliged in any way to issue a refund if is past the refund date. Yes they should have bought insurance. But I also agree that compassion can prevail.

 

But I also realize that if they do this for one, they will get hit up to do it for everyone and then where do they draw the line? Which sob stories qualify and which do not?

 

But I also agree it seems wrong for the cruise line to profit double when they sell the cabin.

 

On the other hand, unless it's a completely sold out cruise, whoever bought their cabin would have sailed anyway in a different cabin.

 

There is no easy answer here.

[ChappChapp]

First, I think someone who spends $43,000 but does not buy insurance for whatever reason is taking a big chance, life happens. Second, I have always purchased trip insurance thru an independent company because I am living with stage 4 cancer and you never know. There is also a caveat that insurance must be purchased within 2 weeks of booking to cover pre existing conditions. Finally Oceania could have shown more sensitivity and possibly better public relations (something they don't seem to do well) by refunding the money.

[CHUCKIE50]

Although attorney Walker's blog post states the cost of the cruise was $43,000 I really wonder why anyone would self insure such a large amount. I personally do not know anyone who could afford such a large loss from their own funds. I believe as others have stated that the cruise line should be compassionate if they are able to rebook the cruise with no loss to them. It seems like good pr and would make me more likely to book with a company that had that type of behavior.

 

I usually sail 3x per year and rarely spend more that $8000pp and I almost always book my own flights using points. What I learned here on CC is that the Chase Sapphire Preferred card will pay up to $10000 per trip if the trip is paid with their card. My wife pays her fare with her card and I pay my fare with mine giving us a total of $20k with no out of pocket cost. No additional travel insurance needed.We use a company called GeoBlue for an annual medical policy and it costs a total of $360.00 annually. The coverage is for trips up to 70 days and provides a $250k benefit and also includes $500k for evacuation. We haven't needed to use the medical benefit but Chase very quick in paying for a cancellation when I fell running and suffered a concussion and a broken hand the morning of a Florida cruise and I missed the ship.

[bitob]

We insure with credit cards. Our ta requires us to email him that we decline insurance and "declined" in red is on the insurance line

 

Compassionate exceptions are great in theory. The minute an exception is made for one and not another you will see a lawsuit. Not a good business practice to make exceptions on a case by case basis. . This was wholly avoidable with the purchase of insurance

Edited March 8, 2015 by bitob

[Paulchili]

Chuckie50,

I am with you - I too rely heavily on our Sapphire cards for cancellation insurance and GeoBlue annual policy for health insurance,

I too had good response from Chase when I needed it.

bitob - I agree that making exceptions for some and not others would be difficult and contraversial but not impossible.

It would seem wise to insure a $43K cruise expense and not rely on luck.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Paulchili

[orchestrapal]

Chuckie50,

I am with you - I too rely heavily on our Sapphire cards for cancellation insurance and GeoBlue annual policy for health insurance,

I too had good response from Chase when I needed it.

bitob - I agree that making exceptions for some and not others would be difficult and contraversial but not impossible.

It would seem wise to insure a $43K cruise expense and not rely on luck.

 

We have also used Sapphire Cards since they came out. They do not ever cover our full costs but we have been self insuring for many many years and therefore easily can cover the balance. We also always fly up front on those same Sapphire points. Great deal!

Edited March 8, 2015 by orchestrapal

[Mura]

When we were young and doing independent tours we never bothered with insurance. Hotels could be cancelled with a day or two's notice. Yes, we risked the airfare. But we took that risk.

 

We're seniors now and take insurance on cruises, but we don't when we travel independently for the same reasons as in our earlier years.

 

But these days if we have a cruise or some other booked tour (I can't remember taking one but that's another issue), we definitely get insurance. Our main concern is cancellation, but medical evacuation also enters into the picture.

 

We're planning a land trip to Portugal next year with friends and given the nature of that trip, we don't plan on getting insurance. But we definitely do with cruises!

 

When Renaissance went bankrupt we were due to pay in full the next week. Amex returned our deposit, and the insurance company returned our premium!

 

With increasing age we also bear in mind pre-existing coverage. We didn't worry about that in the past, but now we do. So I initially book insurance for the deposit amount and boost it up when we make final payment.

 

Unless I forget ... which I have for a couple of our recent trips but fortunately we didn't have to cancel! We just booked an Oceania cruise on Sirena for October '16 and I have already booked insurance (the deposit amount) for that cruise.

 

Mura

[CHUCKIE50]

We have also used Sapphire Cards since they came out and although they do not ever cover our full costs.We have been self insuring for many many years.so our losses would therefore be minimal for only the amount over our $40.000 covered by our two cards. We always fly on points earned by those same cards. Good deal!

I am still learning how to maximize points earning opportunities for cruising. While Sapphire earns 2X the points for travel spending I just learned the United MileagePlus Card can earn much, much more for an expensive cruise that might be worth enough for two first class tickets anywhere.

The pointsguy dot com had a recent post on this strategy

I have to figure if the obc and personal service is worth passing this up.

[Paulchili]

I am still learning how to maximize points earning opportunities for cruising. While Sapphire earns 2X the points for travel spending I just learned the United MileagePlus Card can earn much, much more for an expensive cruise that might be worth enough for two first class tickets anywhere.

The pointsguy dot com had a recent post on this strategy

I have to figure if the obc and personal service is worth passing this up.

 

I recently earned 56K UA miles with UA card booking a Princess cruise ($7K X 8 points = 56K UA miles). All I gave up was a couple of hundred $$ of OBC from a TA.

The 56K UA miles were worth to me a lot more than 3 or 4 hundred $$ OBC (1 business class ticket to Europe, to be exact :D).

Disclaimer - they don't always offer 8 points/$ spent, but they did when I booked the cruise.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Paulchili

[buggins0402]

Why am I not surprised to see a familiar name under the comments on the website ;)

 

I guess Mr Walker will have more clients

 

:D Good catch Lyn!