Cuba, is Royal Caribbean learning from Carnival mistake?

[cruzeluver]

LOL! So is it just "communist" dictatorships you boycott? How about other corrupt, oppressive governments (so long half the Caribbean Islands!). You can forget China and much of Europe....

 

Come to think of it. I believe our government is about as oppressive and subversive as it can get.

 

He who sits in judgment....

 

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

 

Haiti anyone? Very oppressive government, but hey, them Labadoozies are awfully tastey!

 

Feel like going to Jamaica? Just make sure that if you are a dude in love with another dude you keep it quite there because even the cops like getting in on beating up the gay folks.

 

Grand Cayman? See above.

 

St. Petersburg Russia? Lovely scenery and historic churches, and a history of intolerance and oppression.

[FLAlaska]

As a child of Cuban immigrants and having been born and raised in Miami, I will just say this...

 

Comparing Castro and Cuba to Haiti and Jamaica is just showing you know nothing of the situation .

 

Regardless, Cuba isn't going to change the law. They can collect (visas) and "stick it to those that left" more when they fly to the island. And trying to not get too political, this is just another case of the US giving and giving and not getting anything back for there "deals".

 

Right now, its Cubans that really want to go visit their homeland. So we will see what happens.

[M_BA]

Do you have a link to a story or did you read this on the Carnival boards?

 

Here's current official policy, by Cuban officials:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=49367528&postcount=3

[Big_G]

Here's current official policy, by Cuban officials:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=49367528&postcount=3

 

Thanks for the link. I was actually looking for the statement Carnival made about suspending stops until Cuba allows Cuban Americans to cruise there. The link was provided by khm1.

[BillOh]

Do the people in Cuba have money to afford getting on a cruise ship?

 

JoeRum

 

I think they are worried about Cuban born citizens of the US, Canada and other countries boarding the ship in Miami.

[M_BA]

Thanks for the link. I was actually looking for the statement Carnival made about suspending stops until Cuba allows Cuban Americans to cruise there. The link was provided by khm1.

 

Here is Carnival's policy change yesterday, 041816, according to Carnival CEO Arnold Donald:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2016/04/carnival-no-longer-barring-cuban-born-travelers.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/19/us/carnivals-maiden-voyage-to-cuba-draws-ire-and-bias-charges.html?_r=0

 

This is one of those topics where the information is literally changing daily!

[3CatsInMA]

LOL! So is it just "communist" dictatorships you boycott? How about other corrupt, oppressive governments (so long half the Caribbean Islands!). You can forget China and much of Europe....

 

Come to think of it. I believe our government is about as oppressive and subversive as it can get.

 

He who sits in judgment....

 

Yup, that's proven by everybody risking their lives trying to get out here...:rolleyes::confused:

[besberry]

From what I've read, Cuba can only accommodate 2 ships. One medium size and one small ship. They also need stuff for tourists to do. I'm guessing RCL is waiting to see what Carnival does

 

Plenty of things for tourists to do in Cuba. Europeans, Canadians and South Americans have been visiting the place for decades. They wouldn't do that without stuff to do! I had a great time and that was back in the '90's

[atnolan94]

As a child of Cuban immigrants and having been born and raised in Miami, I will just say this...

 

Comparing Castro and Cuba to Haiti and Jamaica is just showing you know nothing of the situation .

 

Regardless, Cuba isn't going to change the law. They can collect (visas) and "stick it to those that left" more when they fly to the island. And trying to not get too political, this is just another case of the US giving and giving and not getting anything back for there "deals".

 

Right now, its Cubans that really want to go visit their homeland. So we will see what happens.

 

Thank you. My mom and aunt are like you. Learned Spanish first, from Miami...

 

I am second generation but very very proud of the sacrifices my grandparents and great grandparents made to give me the life I have.

 

LOL! So is it just "communist" dictatorships you boycott? How about other corrupt, oppressive governments (so long half the Caribbean Islands!). You can forget China and much of Europe....

 

Come to think of it. I believe our government is about as oppressive and subversive as it can get.

 

He who sits in judgment....

 

Are you serious? You can't be serious....

 

Sure the US had issues in the past like slavery, etc., but in Cuba it is AN ONGOING ISSUE. You can't hold people who currently run a country accountable for things that happened 100-200 years ago. But you certainly can hold them accountable for what is going on right now. And in Cuba, its going on right now.

 

Did the US government keep you as a prisoner of war for 20 months? Beat you to near death for praying the rosary? Did you continue to pray the rosary despite the daily beatings? Did you spend those 20 months in a 4'x4' cage? Were you a 6 foot 2 man who weighed 90 pounds when he was finally freed?

 

All of those thing happened to my grandfather when he was captured as a prisoner of war shortly after the US botched the bay of pigs invasion and backed out on the Cuban Ex-Pats who went in to fight Castro. The people who are STILL IN CHARGE were the ones doing this. And have been for 60 years.

 

Yes its an issue with this communist dictatorship. Sure theres other places out there that are corrupt. I don't travel to China, and I don't travel to Russia, because I have no desire and thats not my point anyways.

 

But I hope you understand why some of us don't want to go.

 

If you want to go, please do! Cuba is beautiful and I hope one day the Castros are gone and I can visit and learn about more of my family history. But to give my money now to the men who nearly killed my grandfather every day for 20 months? No thanks. My grandfather would turn over in his grave and I have way too much respect and sheer admiration for the things he did for his Country.

 

Like I said I don't judge you for going. Cuba is beautiful. But don't judge some of us for not going.

Edited April 19, 2016 by atnolan94

[khm1]

As a child of Cuban immigrants and having been born and raised in Miami, I will just say this...

 

 

 

Comparing Castro and Cuba to Haiti and Jamaica is just showing you know nothing of the situation .

 

 

 

Regardless, Cuba isn't going to change the law. They can collect (visas) and "stick it to those that left" more when they fly to the island. And trying to not get too political, this is just another case of the US giving and giving and not getting anything back for there "deals".

 

 

 

Right now, its Cubans that really want to go visit their homeland. So we will see what happens.

 

 

You are exactly right. There is a lot of ignorance about the true situation in Cuba and even the history of the Cuban Revolution. Many constantly try to equate it to other international situations. It is a completely unique situation especially since the original bad guys are still in charge!

 

I was also born in the USA to a Cuban immigrant. As a matter of fact, my Mom was still going through the naturalization process when I was born.

 

Time will be the judge here. I hope no one is holding their breath for the tremendous changes that so many expect to see in Cuba. The Castros have not been in power for nearly 60 years by being stupid. They yearn for power, money and control. They are unlikely to let that change anytime soon.

[mcatmcat]

I'm confused. Isn't this about a natural born Cuban who "escaped" Cuba basically telling them they can't return? So how is this discrimination?

 

 

 

Not that I'm supporting Cuba, but many countries have laws we do not like, and still visit.

 

 

 

Personally I think the whole thing is messed up, but lets not call it discrimination, because it is not.

 

 

Not all Cuban escape from Cuba, some opt to leave their country legally.

Edited April 19, 2016 by mcatmcat

[roxette]

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

Ditto. No interest in spending our hard earned money, and giving US dollars to them, to sail to a communist dictatorship.

R&D

 

Do you have an iPhone? Or clothes. Or anyting..?

 

China - Cuba. Potato - potato.

[leisuretraveler223]

As a child of Cuban immigrants and having been born and raised in Miami, I will just say this...

 

Yeah, nice try. I lived in South Florida for years. If you're a child of Cuban immigrants, born & raised in Miami, then you've been carefully fed the best propaganda since your momma weaned you. Your biased and your view is horribly corrupted.

[khm1]

Yeah, nice try. I lived in South Florida for years. If you're a child of Cuban immigrants, born & raised in Miami, then you've been carefully fed the best propaganda since your momma weaned you. Your biased and your view is horribly corrupted.

 

 

 

This is hardly fair. This poster is I entitled to an opinion. Who are you to pass judgement if you have not walked a mile in the same shoes? Could it be that you have your own biases? We all are a product of our environment. To call this poster biased and corrupted and "carefully fed...propaganda" is harsh and unkind IMHO.

 

This topic incites passion on all sides. So far, this thread has been reasonably civil. It would be nice to keep it that way.

Edited April 19, 2016 by khm1

[mollyeilis]

Ditto. No interest in spending our hard earned money, and giving US dollars to them, to sail to a communist dictatorship.

R&D

 

Most people don't want to visit Cuba to give money to the gov't. They want to see the place and get money to the PEOPLE.

 

Just like North Koreans, the people are the ones who are always hurt in these situations. They are at the mercy of their government. We punish the gov't, but it never does really punish those in power. They take everything and hurt their own people.

 

No, the issue is not Cubans sailing to MIA. It is Cuban law that Cuban-Americans can not sail 'back to Cuba'. They can fly back, but their screwed up communist law still reads they 'can not sail back'.

Carnival is currently trying to get that changed.

R&D

 

So something that hasn't been undone in decades might *possibly* be undone because of the tourists who want to go there. Isn't this a *positive*?

 

But then I've been confused by the Cuban-American thing since high school when I heard the Cuban born father of one of my friends ranting. He both wants to be Cuban AND hates Cuba. It's so confusing.

 

 

 

It's not like tourists haven't been going to Cuba for years... Just not American ones.

 

Americans can go and have gone.

 

LOL! So is it just "communist" dictatorships you boycott? How about other corrupt, oppressive governments (so long half the Caribbean Islands!). You can forget China and much of Europe....

 

Come to think of it. I believe our government is about as oppressive and subversive as it can get.

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

As a child of Cuban immigrants and having been born and raised in Miami, I will just say this...

 

....

 

Right now, its Cubans that really want to go visit their homeland. So we will see what happens.

 

I lived in Miami for awhile and literally never met a Cuban American who wanted to go back. Guess I must not have met your family or those people who are protesting. Or things have changed...

 

 

I'm confused. Isn't this about a natural born Cuban who "escaped" Cuba basically telling them they can't return? So how is this discrimination?

 

Not that I'm supporting Cuba, but many countries have laws we do not like, and still visit.

 

Personally I think the whole thing is messed up, but lets not call it discrimination, because it is not.

 

I don't think it's the people here calling it discrimination, but those protesting. Somehow it's Carnival's fault that they left a place that they can't return to.

[khm1]

[/color]

Most people don't want to visit Cuba to give money to the gov't. They want to see the place and get money to the PEOPLE.

The problem is that most of the profits from travelers goes right into the pocket of the government. Wages are controlled by the same government and jobs in tourism are also handed out by the government. The Cuban people do not gain financially from this arrangement. The average Cuban makes the equivalent of $24 per MONTH.

 

Just like North Koreans, the people are the ones who are always hurt in these situations. They are at the mercy of their government. We punish the gov't, but it never does really punish those in power. They take everything and hurt their own people.You are correct. The people are always the ones to pay for such corruption.

 

 

So something that hasn't been undone in decades might *possibly* be undone because of the tourists who want to go there. Isn't this a *positive*?

 

Again, travel to Cuba is very unlikely to exert any real change. The rest of the world has been going there for a long time, yet very little has changed

 

But then I've been confused by the Cuban-American thing since high school when I heard the Cuban born father of one of my friends ranting. He both wants to be Cuban AND hates Cuba. It's so confusing.

We do not hate Cuba. We hate what has been done to Cuba by this oppressive communist regime. We LOVE Cuba and its people with passion and longing.

 

 

 

 

 

Americans can go and have gone.

Yes, but not as tourists. Not yet. Cuba tightly restricts where travelers are allowed to go and what they are allowed to see. Currently, a previously vetted, tightly controlled "tour" or "exchange" is the only way for US citizens to travel to Cuba. You can't just go to a resort and hang out. This policy will apply to shore excursions for Americans cruising to Cuba.

 

 

 

Exactly.

There is really no other nation that is exactly like Cuba. Few regimes have reigned for so long and at such a human cost. Cuba is incredibly unique and its people oppressed almost like no other nation.

 

 

 

 

 

I lived in Miami for awhile and literally never met a Cuban American who wanted to go back. Guess I must not have met your family or those people who are protesting. Or things have changed...

You are right. Most do NOT want to go back until the regime has ended and the people are free.

 

 

 

I don't think it's the people here calling it discrimination, but those protesting. Somehow it's Carnival's fault that they left a place that they can't return to.

 

The issue with Carnival is that they negotiated a deal with the Cuban government and freely accepted their discriminatory terms. It is indeed discriminatory for an American company to restrict goods and services to a particular group of American citizens. Even if most Cuban born US citizens do not want to go to Cuba, they should not be restricted from doing so. It is just plain wrong in the opinion of many.

Edited April 19, 2016 by khm1

[Big_G]

It's amazing how some on this thread that have no real dog in this fight continue to mock those that do. I'm not sure if it's some warped need to seek a moral high ground or a need to justify their desired itinerary selection but it just comes across as ignorant.

[khm1]

It's amazing how some on this thread that have no real dog in this fight continue to mock those that do. I'm not sure if it's some warped need to seek a moral high ground or a need to justify their desired itinerary selection but it just comes across as ignorant.

 

 

 

I have noticed, over my lifetime, that some people will begin to insult those they disagree with when presented with the facts or any opinion contrary to their own.

Edited April 19, 2016 by khm1

[pbfp2008]

LOL! So is it just "communist" dictatorships you boycott? How about other corrupt, oppressive governments (so long half the Caribbean Islands!). You can forget China and much of Europe....

 

Come to think of it. I believe our government is about as oppressive and subversive as it can get.

 

He who sits in judgment....

 

Speaking as no great fan of our government, (but with great love of our country,) this has to be one of the most gob-smacking things I've read on these forums. Maybe a dictionary is in order....

[IsanTom]

I will never visit Cuba until the Castro Brothers Murderous Dictatorship ends with a fair election for the Cuban People! The embargo also should never be lifted until there gone!

[chengkp75]

[/color]

 

The issue with Carnival is that they negotiated a deal with the Cuban government and freely accepted their discriminatory terms. It is indeed discriminatory for an American company to restrict goods and services to a particular group of American citizens. Even if most Cuban born US citizens do not want to go to Cuba, they should not be restricted from doing so. It is just plain wrong in the opinion of many.

 

The flaw in your logic is that Carnival Cruise Lines (as opposed to the parent Carnival Corp) IS NOT an American company, despite its headquarters being in Miami. It is incorporated in Panama.

[khm1]

The flaw in your logic is that Carnival Cruise Lines (as opposed to the parent Carnival Corp) IS NOT an American company, despite its headquarters being in Miami. It is incorporated in Panama.

 

 

 

Okay. I'm not a corporate lawyer or any kind of corporate law expert. No doubt they are incorporated in Panama to avoid taxes, regulations, or both. Even so, the general public perceives Carnival as American. It is a moot point now since Carnival changed its policy. They either realized that the policy was at best unfair and a public relations nightmare. They will now allow Cuban born passengers to book. What happens when they get to Cuba is anyone's guess.

[Big_G]

The flaw in your logic is that Carnival Cruise Lines (as opposed to the parent Carnival Corp) IS NOT an American company, despite its headquarters being in Miami. It is incorporated in Panama.

 

Not exactly the same circumstances but maybe there are other consequences that may have Carnival concerned.

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-finds-discrimination-kuwait-airways

[khm1]

Not exactly the same circumstances but maybe there are other consequences that may have Carnival concerned.

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-finds-discrimination-kuwait-airways

 

 

 

Very interesting.

[atnolan94]

It's amazing how some on this thread that have no real dog in this fight continue to mock those that do. I'm not sure if it's some warped need to seek a moral high ground or a need to justify their desired itinerary selection but it just comes across as ignorant.

 

Thank you!

 

Speaking to whoever made the comment about the US somehow being as corrupt as cuba...(????:confused::confused::confused:).... As someone with a dog in the fight. I do not want to infringe on your desire to go to Cuba, I will not shame you for it. But I just ask that you don't shame me as well as the others for believing something. It might also behoove you to be understanding of my position as I am of yours.