Is Celebrity chartering out the Summit AGAIN in 2018?

[hcat]

it is sometimes very disappointing when best cabins and prices are no longer available for alternatives....we usually book as soon as itins are posted to get the price, ship and itin we like

 

Before retirement we had to make our vacation request a year in advance.. and were burnt a few times . Although we can be more flexible now, we no longer count on the cruises actually going off as planned and only book refundable air and hotel res.

 

Not evertyone wants a theme music cruise, or cooking cruise, etc and the high prices that they command. And the entity you book with controls the cruise....

 

Anyhow, you seem to have a positive attitude so that's a big plus, esp if it happens to you some time.

[wwcruisers]

 

The Summit had to change itineraries from January to April to accommodate two Jazz cruises (they have now thrown in short Caribbean cruises too, which we would never do). Two cruises disrupted the January to April 7 night cruises out of San Juan. So please, it would be great if these could be chartered out before thousands of people booked in a Jan -April time frame have to be displaced. I know this is not personally your fault. But the powers that be need to get together when itineraries are first released to figure this out. We booked last November.

 

OMG, Carol (Dirtgirl) -- you ARE still on the boards!:D

 

I haven't seen a post from you in a long time. Although I've never had the pleasure of sailing with you, one of the most entertaining reviews I ever read (on the RC board?) was titled something like: "Dirtgirl & Critterchick's Excellent Adventure" -- it was hilarious! So glad to see that you are still around. :cool:

 

And, I totally agree that X needs to do a better job of figuring out their charter schedules, in advance. Looks like they've pretty much blocked off Summit in 2018 from the end of January through the end of March, for charters. If that works out well for them, I'd hope they would just plan on doing that in 2019. If they have a slot that they just can't charter, they can always offer a "regular" sailing, in its spot. IMHO, better to do it that way, than to put your passengers through the inconvenience/expense of having to change their carefully thought-out travel plans.

Edited September 10, 2016 by wwcruisers

[hattack]

in my 40+ years of travelling, I have learned to be very flexible and be able to change plans on a dime...my experience is when that happens I have the best vacations because I did not plan for them

 

at first blush the cost of most charter theme cruises seem overly expensive..however IMHO it depends on how one defines "passion"...i.e. if you find that you attend more than 3 concerts per year in your home town to see your favorite artists, by the time you add up tickets, dinner, gas, babysitting, hotel, parking, drinks etc it easily covers the incremental cost between a regular cruise and a charter and you are able to see 20-30 of your artists not only in concert but around the ship for 7 days...if you do not attend concerts then it is not worth the extra $$$$

 

ironically, the cruise lines think from the contrapositive...they use theme charter cruises as a way of attracting folks who would not ordinarily think of cruising but do so because of their affinity (classic example Kid Rock's fan base, which by no means of the stretch of one's imagination fits any cruise demographics:D)..Rock's cruises sell out in 24 hours from the time the booking opens..and they come back year after year...the cruise line figures if they pay a premium for Rock's cruise and the by product is they now enjoy cruising, they will jump at the chance to take a regular cruise in a high end cabin that is still cheaper than a basic inside on Rock's charter

 

the other byproduct is that main line cruise companies recognize the power of charters and have incorporated into regular cruising..classic example is Carnival LIVE...Carnival knows it has a competitive advantage on their Fantasy Class ships on shorter cruises by featuring 1 specific artist (Country, Motown, Blues etc) appearing for 1 performance while in port and treating it as a shore excursion option...also both NCL (Sixthman) and Carnival (Fathom) have developed a product that dedicates one ship to charters and supplements the schedule by doing 4-5 short, ( Mon- Fri) one port turn around cruises that gives the cruise line the flexibility to pull that ship out of revenue service with short notice to take advantage of charter revenue opportunities or respond to natural disasters or major events without disrupting guests already booked on their regular sailing..call it a byproduct of Carnival's decision to pull 3 Fantasy Class vessels out of service for Hurricane Katrina and the now accept practice of using cruise ships as a hotel for major events held in a port city (Olympics, World Cup, Super Bowl)

 

so I agree with hcat, one can no longer plan of one's desire cruise to go off as plan so purchasing travel insurance and booking refundable air & hotel res is the safe bet to go

[hattack]

fyi..the cost incurred to rebook an existing guest to another ship or week due to a charter is generally absorb by the promoter and is built into the charter contract ...this provides incentive for both the promoter and the cruise line to sign charters 15 months out or so in advance and encourages charters in the Jan - Mar or late Sept to Thanksgiving time frame..that's why you will see on these boards a wide range of incentives offered to the guest by the cruise lines

 

in terms of Celebrity..you are seeing a change of cruise lines from HAL to Celebrity by a few key charter promoters...I suspect the layout & size of Celebrity's ships are more "friendly" to the promoters onboard activities...I would suspect that Celebrity's long term ship schedulers are pressing their marketing/charter folks to lock in these charters for the next 2-3 years so they can do their strategic scheduling so Celebrity's guest can plan their vacations without fear of disruption (barring last minute emergencies or events outside their control)..promoters like to work with one cruise line and one fleet type for operational logistics

 

I sense until things settle down in Europe the airlines will downsize their lift which means cruise lines will downsize their capacity at least for the next 18 -24 months...in the NA markets it depends on how quickly the Zitka virus can get under control

[Globaliser]

I would suspect that Celebrity's long term ship schedulers are pressing their marketing/charter folks to lock in these charters for the next 2-3 years so they can do their strategic scheduling so Celebrity's guest can plan their vacations without fear of disruption (barring last minute emergencies or events outside their control).

However, in the long time that the company has been using HAL, the pattern has always been like this. I suspect it's in the nature of full-ship charters that the charterer won't (or won't agree to) be contractually bound to take the ship until closer to the sailing date, because it also wants to see how well the charter is selling before it definitively makes what is probably a multi-million dollar commitment per week.

 

When the normal cruise market is clamouring to book cruises years in advance, but when no charterer is reasonably likely to commit that far ahead, the cruise line is sort of caught between a rock and a hard place - and it seems that the solution adopted by all cruise lines is to trigger the contractual flexibility in the bookings from the normal market by cancelling the bookings made for the time for which the charterer ultimately takes the ship.

[A Sixth?]

once you have done your first full charter Smooth Jazz Cruise, you will never be satisfied with a "normal" boring regular cruise ever again...

 

Not evertyone wants a theme music cruise, or cooking cruise, etc and the high prices that they command. And the entity you book with controls the cruise....

 

 

Bet a Nude Cruise or Gay Cruise is tons of fun.... for those who look forward to taking part. :D:eek:

 

They actually may look forward to those specialty charters even more than the smooth jazz crowd.... but I don't know. :p

 

I also hope I don't lose a plum booking for those charters either.

 

[shipshape sam]

Can't say about charters in general, but smooth jazz charter seems to be very popular.

 

I would like to listen to the elevator music, which is not what they play most of the time. It is very upbeat and engaging and from other music cruises I have been on (not by design - we have booked two Royal Caribbean cruises with partial charter of bluegrass group twice at random) the live aspect of the music and the jamming is great IMHO. We got to listen to ad hoc jam sessions around the ship. The group was composed of people who played bluegrass and they brought their instruments with them.

 

I too, struggle with the price of admission, knowing that I could be paying double the cruise fare for just access to the booked musical groups. Pretty steep, but then again, I don't have to cruise on that sailing.

 

Still would like to try a smooth jazz cruise now that they are sailing Celebrity vs HAL as in the past.

[hattack]

all excellent points...would like to share some feedback for each of you

 

Globalism...I will speak to your point in terms of what I have a working information in...Smooth Jazz Charters...in the 80's a Jazz loving TA would bring groups on the NCL Norway (my Mom was on one of the first sailings)..when the group reached 50% of the Norway's capacity..she decided to venture out on her own and had the loyal fan base to charter a smaller ship...needless to say she has been wildly successful and provided the roadmap for other promoters to follow...cruise lines have been burnt (most notable example RCI, Freedom of the Seas about 3 years ago)so that before they pull a ship out of revenue service, the promoter has to post a non refundable bond (equal to the cost of the charter)so if the promoter fails to hit their financial checkpoints)the cruise line does not lose $$$ and can fill the cancel charter with regular guests at deeply discounted cabin prices..

 

A Sixth...lol...I don't think I would want to be a part of a full nude charter..I remember in the 80's a big deal on the cruise lines was a topless deck under the smoke stacks on the highest deck..in the age of "freestyle cruising" the working crew (dining/cabin stewards) love smooth jazz charters, because everything is triggered by the concert schedules which means dining times are fixed, which makes their jobs so much easier..plus many of the crew are fans of the music, so it's a nice change for them also..when the water is smooth and the music on time, smooth jazz cruisers are very mellow...lol

 

Shipshape Sam...I'm sure our fellow CC poster's on this thread would share with you that "elevator music" & Boney James cannot be together in the same sentence..before you take the leap and try a full charter music cruise, you might check "Cruise Theme Finders" or ctc your local favorite FM music station to find a group (that share your love of the musical style) and become part of their group on a regular sailing..the mark up between a normal rack rate and to be part of the group should be no more than 15%-20%).be aware that the group will be smaller than the largest secondary public room) and there will be limited activities (but gives you a great "taste" for a full charter..also be aware that some of your fellow cruisers who are not a part of your group, may not like not having access to your activities..also suggest you attend one of the summer Smooth Jazz Festivals in your area so you can experience first hand that it is not "elevator music"...fyi, is there still music played in elevators....lol

[hattack]

Globaliser...to stay competitive and capture deposits and hold on to their loyal guests, highly successful charters (with a past proven track record) are signing charter contracts with the cruise lines 18-24 months out..Dave Koz & Friends sailing out of Venice in May 2017, actually opened for sale in the fall (on HAL) of 2015 and sold out in 24 hours by giving past guests option (and thus was never open for sale to the general public)..as a result, Koz added a second sailing the following week, which sold out in 72 hours from guests waitlist from the 1st week which filled up 90% of the ship and then open for sale to the general public for the remaining 10%)..there is now a very long waitlist for both sailings...I am sure HAL is delighted with that arrangement..do not be surprised if Celebrity enjoys the same success with their ships position in Europe..Smooth Jazz is bigger in Europe than in the States and with up to 2 years to plan and budget for air fare, those charters will sell out quickly

[Globaliser]

Globalism...I will speak to your point in terms of what I have a working information in...Smooth Jazz Charters...in the 80's a Jazz loving TA would bring groups on the NCL Norway (my Mom was on one of the first sailings)..when the group reached 50% of the Norway's capacity..she decided to venture out on her own and had the loyal fan base to charter a smaller ship...needless to say she has been wildly successful and provided the roadmap for other promoters to follow...cruise lines have been burnt (most notable example RCI, Freedom of the Seas about 3 years ago)so that before they pull a ship out of revenue service, the promoter has to post a non refundable bond (equal to the cost of the charter)so if the promoter fails to hit their financial checkpoints)the cruise line does not lose $$$ and can fill the cancel charter with regular guests at deeply discounted cabin prices..

Globaliser...to stay competitive and capture deposits and hold on to their loyal guests, highly successful charters (with a past proven track record) are signing charter contracts with the cruise lines 18-24 months out..Dave Koz & Friends sailing out of Venice in May 2017, actually opened for sale in the fall (on HAL) of 2015 and sold out in 24 hours by giving past guests option (and thus was never open for sale to the general public)..as a result, Koz added a second sailing the following week, which sold out in 72 hours from guests waitlist from the 1st week which filled up 90% of the ship and then open for sale to the general public for the remaining 10%)..there is now a very long waitlist for both sailings...I am sure HAL is delighted with that arrangement..do not be surprised if Celebrity enjoys the same success with their ships position in Europe..Smooth Jazz is bigger in Europe than in the States and with up to 2 years to plan and budget for air fare, those charters will sell out quickly

I think I know which "Jazz loving TA" you're talking about - if I'm right about that, she is the person whose company has become ECP (although that's basically been run by her son). Some of the cruises started by ECP are now owned by Star Vista Live, but I don't know the relationship between the two companies. I used to see this TA on those jazz cruises on Norway.

 

However, I remember the history slightly differently. Originally, the Norway theme cruises (including the two weeks of the Floating Jazz Festival) were scheduled for low periods in the year; for example, the FJF was in late October with significant risks of hurricane disruption. The theme cruises were put on at these times of the year so that the entertainment might support yields by providing an attraction for cruising at these times.

 

While that worked for a while, the industry gradually changed and became more reliant on ancillary revenue. The big revenue drivers were bars, casino and shorex - but the fiercely loyal and enthusiastic jazz fans on the FJF spent very little money on these. So in a climate in which the revenue from these departments became ever more important, the cruises gradually became less and less viable for the cruise line. NCL parted company with the long-standing producer of the FJF, had a pretty disastrous flirtation with a new (and cheaper) producer, and then permanently cancelled all the theme cruises at once.

 

It was that cancellation that drove this TA to try full-ship charters, and as you say, it has been very successful.

 

And while the history may be of relatively little interest to many, it does actually point to one reason why these charters are so expensive: not only is there a great deal of top-quality entertainment to be paid for, but the charter rates have to take into account that revenue from those three key departments is going to be much lower than on normal cruises.

 

I understand what you say about the lead times for charters, but ECP cruise weeks on HAL were always taken off sale relatively late in the booking cycle. The phenomenon led to one CCer on the HAL forum setting up a tracker of charters (and large groups), in part so that you could guess when your cruise might be at risk from a later charter. The current thread is here: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2390991. I don't know when the Dave Koz weeks were taken off sale, so that may have been different from the ECP weeks. However, now that ECP has taken up residence with Celebrity, if I were booking a normal cruise far in advance for a time when ships have historically been chartered, I would personally remain wary about the ship being chartered from under me. There must be something about the way in which ECP and many of the other charterers (have to) do business that means that the cruise lines end up dumping a lot of bookings from the normal market when a charter is firmed up. Hence the frustration from some in this thread, which I completely understand.

[hattack]

thanks for filling in the gaps with NCL & ECP..I knew there were some issue behind the scene..the KOZ charters are handled by a travel agency in California with no connection to ECP...in looking at ECP's website they seem to be easing out of the Jazz Cruise charter business and diversifying and I think Star Vista subcontracts the onboard product presentation to ECP during the transition period..the other factor that has impacted ECP is the emergence of Capital Jazz Productions (Maryland based).

 

by nature of the business, charters are subject to economic down cycles when discretionary income is tight..during this most recent recession which occurred at the same time the cruise industry had mega ships under construction that are now being delivered as you correctly pointed out, has caused onboard incremental revenue to be pushed too offset lowball cabin prices to lure folks on the ship...because of the premium rate that guests pay for the Jazz Charters, coupled with the plethora of onboard music related activities leaves little time for spas, drinks around the pool etc leads to a lower S&S bill...I don't drink, don't do shore excursions, the buffet entrees are fine so I don't eat at upscale dining venues and always book interior cabins, so my S&S bill has never exceed $100 for both of us..much like the airlines, the music charter business is going thru a "shake down" period which will have at the most 2-3 major players left standing..cruise lines may want to compete for lucrative music charters but their mega ship class ships are not the right fit for onboard presentation for Jazz concerts..older Celebrity & HAL ships "fit"

 

I have a theory about the future of music charters inspired by of all folks Kid Rock..he charters older smaller ship and departs Monday,returns on Friday by noon..he offers a "pre cruise" option where guest can check in on Sunday night between 4pm -8pm (thus capturing revenue that would have been spent on hotels/night before dinner)...sails 3 miles out, (legal limit to open casinos and bars), sells his own brand of beer)..returns Monday at Noon to pick up the balance of his guests, sails to a private island for 2 days/nights of concerts & beach parties and on the return stops in Freeport for 4 hours to shop and then home by Friday noon..I see Smooth Jazz charters doing the same thing, having fewer artists, lower operating cost and more appealing to guests who can take fewer vacation days (5)..the promoter can charge 1/2 the going charter rate, spread over 5 days instead of 7 and still make close to the current profit margins..cruise lines rather than retire their older smaller (less bells and whistles) and sell them overseas, might hold on to 1 or 2 to do charters...thus the question about planning one's cruise on Celebrity becomes mute..they won/t be in the charter business

[wwcruisers]

 

 

Still would like to try a smooth jazz cruise now that they are sailing Celebrity vs HAL as in the past.

 

Shipshapesam -- if you google smooth jazz cruises, you'll see that they are still doing open booking for the 15th anniversary 2018 sailings (wouldn't wait too long, though). Summit is one of my favorite ships, and I can't imagine a better venue for a jazz cruise -- so many places to hear music, all around the ship! :cool:

 

And yeah -- talk about sticker shock! But, we just canceled the 2017 Mardi Gras Cruise, on Equinox. It was really pricey too -- unless you among the savvy few, who booked the week it came out. And that didn't include the exorbitant prices of everything you might want to do, during the three days in New Orleans.:eek: With the SJC, all of the entertainment is included, along with gratuities and port fees. The only "extras" that I'll need to budget for are the drink package, and any specialty dining we might want. So, for me, it's going to be worth trying -- at least once. :)

[hattack]

since I live just outside of New Orleans, maybe I should start a side hustle for the Mardi Gras theme Cruisers...most locals will tell you there are really 2 Mardi Gras...the one for the out of town tourist (Fat Tuesday throngs in the FQ) and the Mardi Gras for locals (much more traditional & family oriented)...you would be stunned at the number of locals who leave town during Mardi Gras week and I could probably barter my home in exchange for an interior cabin on the 2018 SJC... lol

[shipshape sam]

all excellent points...would like to share some feedback for each of you

 

Globalism...I will speak to your point in terms of what I have a working information in...Smooth Jazz Charters...in the 80's a Jazz loving TA would bring groups on the NCL Norway (my Mom was on one of the first sailings)..when the group reached 50% of the Norway's capacity..she decided to venture out on her own and had the loyal fan base to charter a smaller ship...needless to say she has been wildly successful and provided the roadmap for other promoters to follow...cruise lines have been burnt (most notable example RCI, Freedom of the Seas about 3 years ago)so that before they pull a ship out of revenue service, the promoter has to post a non refundable bond (equal to the cost of the charter)so if the promoter fails to hit their financial checkpoints)the cruise line does not lose $$$ and can fill the cancel charter with regular guests at deeply discounted cabin prices..

 

A Sixth...lol...I don't think I would want to be a part of a full nude charter..I remember in the 80's a big deal on the cruise lines was a topless deck under the smoke stacks on the highest deck..in the age of "freestyle cruising" the working crew (dining/cabin stewards) love smooth jazz charters, because everything is triggered by the concert schedules which means dining times are fixed, which makes their jobs so much easier..plus many of the crew are fans of the music, so it's a nice change for them also..when the water is smooth and the music on time, smooth jazz cruisers are very mellow...lol

 

Shipshape Sam...I'm sure our fellow CC poster's on this thread would share with you that "elevator music" & Boney James cannot be together in the same sentence..before you take the leap and try a full charter music cruise, you might check "Cruise Theme Finders" or ctc your local favorite FM music station to find a group (that share your love of the musical style) and become part of their group on a regular sailing..the mark up between a normal rack rate and to be part of the group should be no more than 15%-20%).be aware that the group will be smaller than the largest secondary public room) and there will be limited activities (but gives you a great "taste" for a full charter..also be aware that some of your fellow cruisers who are not a part of your group, may not like not having access to your activities..also suggest you attend one of the summer Smooth Jazz Festivals in your area so you can experience first hand that it is not "elevator music"...fyi, is there still music played in elevators....lol

 

great ideas! Will check out to see about local groups. Actually never been to a jazz festival. I just listen to jazz and actually a number of other genres depending on the mood.

 

We did a dance cruise once with a group and it was fun and we did reserve a couple of rooms during the cruise. Also have been on the other side and seen venues reserved for groups. We were on a cruise a number of years ago on Royal with Hogs of the High Seas, I think was their name.

 

Having 2 granddaughters now with a 3rd on the way, is stiff competition for our time. We have a beach house that requests our attention and requests we bring the grandkids. LOL.

 

Still, want to do a full blown affinity cruise like the smooth jazz cruise, I think.

 

Interesting thought about a small(er) group.

 

We were down in NO this past June for some fun and did go listen to some live jazz along with lots of eating. :)

Edited September 13, 2016 by shipshape sam

[hattack]

you probably saw my big brother and SIL on one of the 'Hogs on the High Seas" group sailing on RCI...the good news is that group became so popular they renamed themselves to "High Seas Rally" and now operated full charters on a much smaller RCI ship...this is a normal progression for a group to gain a full charter...plus they are for a great cause Kidney Dialysis

 

New Orleans is the #1 Port of Departure for cruise lines in terms of guests spending 2-3 pre/post days in our City and spending almost triple the amount per day prior/after boarding the ship...sadly, most out of town tourist only focus on the FQ and miss out on some real gems in terms of culture, music and food..also when cruisers sail out of New Orleans most expect an onboard New Orleans experience..sadly most major cruise lines don't do enough regional focus..fyi locals will tell you to hear great New Orleans music one should go to Frenchman Street (just off the FQ) and not so much Bourbon Street

[TXHappyCruiser]

I was on the first 80's cruise run by ECP last year and am booked on the 2017 version next year as well. In our case we set a record of alcohol consumption on the HAL ship, and they had to restock halfway through as well as borrow from another HAL ship at the private island. I will be interested in seeing how staffing is adjusted on the Summit as trust me as HAL could have increased their earnings by three fold with better bar staffing.

[hattack]

LOL...the same thing happened on a Tom Joyner Fantastic Voyage Charter several years ago..Kid Rock is a business genius as he stocks his charter with his own beer brand...when Capital Jazz started using Carnival for it's charters back in 2010, Carnival quickly discovered that they had to triple their midnight staffing levels on the night shift at the Pizza stand on the back of the Lido Deck and the bar right across from it..guests leaving out from the midnight jam session which usually got out at about 0130 wanted a slice of pizza and a drink (to unwind from the music) prior to returning to their cabins..give Carnival credit, they adjusted their staffing levels in all areas to fit the pace of the charter...cruise lines do know that due to the busy concert schedules, onboard revenue in several onboard profit centers (shops, spa, shore excursions) drop dramatically and they compensate for loss in revenue by factoring a line item into the charter contract...the cruise line also builds an incremental menu of perks (i.e. credit into their loyalty program and associate perks (i.e. early boarding, priority dining access etc) related to the advance level standing status in the loyalty program) that will be offered as an incremental cost to the promoter that they must absorb as oppose to passing it on to their guest (who are already paying a premium)

 

you make an excellent point in respect to the first year that a cruise line entertains a charter...almost all cruise lines use historical data from several years to determine inventory management to predict (very accurately btw) demand for food supplies, liquor and other areas...because of the unique nature of charters, that historical data is of little use for the first sailing of the charter

[Globaliser]

you make an excellent point in respect to the first year that a cruise line entertains a charter...almost all cruise lines use historical data from several years to determine inventory management to predict (very accurately btw) demand for food supplies, liquor and other areas...because of the unique nature of charters, that historical data is of little use for the first sailing of the charter

Interesting to hear about the bar sales on other charters. It sounds like we (straight ahead) jazz people are extremely restrained compared to some of the other music cruises!

[hattack]

:D a trait we (smooth jazz) folks have in common with you (straight ahead jazz) folks:D:...or....we both are more talented in bringing our "refreshment" with us for in cabin pre dinner cocktails....LOL

 

I also speculate that with all of the great music & music related full day at sea activities... we have less "idle" down times (casino, lounging by the pool etc.) on our hands to fill with alcohol consumption

 

My friends were on the Tom Joyner Fantastic Voyage Charter ( RCI Freedom of the Seas) the year that Tom had to fully restock their alcohol supplies at the first port of call (SJU)..they shared that Tom had to charter a small cargo plane to fly in a particular brand of high price Cognac that was a favorite of his guests and that RCI could not replenish the volume needed for the balance of his cruise in it's supply stores warehouse in SJU..also RCI Dining staff noticed that their % of each type of entrée ordered were often very different on the Fantastic Voyage then what their historical data projections were based on for regular sailings...give RCI credit, they adjusted for the balance of the years that they hosted the Fantastic Voyage

 

My Church friends were on a Gospel Music Charter and indicated that contrary to popular perception, following the main show every evening the bars and casinos were packed ..I suspect that the cruise line was prepared for that contingency :rolleyes:

 

most music charters arrange their evening concerts around the ships standard 2 main dining venues utilizing the early/late seating pattern and having 1main showroom that can hold the entire ships guests in 2 seatings...this year for the 1st time Capital Jazz SuperCruise will be held on the NCL Getaway with it's "Freestyle Anytime Dining" format in 16 dining venues and 5 smaller showroom venues for entertainment...should be interesting to see how they pull it off