Carnival Legend dangerous tilt.

[broberts]

This was posted. We were on this cruise when it happened. ... All of our drawers did fly out ...

 

Did the draws just fly open or did they end up on the floor?

[zdcatc12]

Sometimes a ship finds itself in a weather situation like this, when the ship's operations has produced a lot of tanks (fuel, water) that are neither completely full or completely empty, or what we call "slack". The liquid in these slack tanks will move to the low side when a ship heels, and so make the heel more pronounced, and require that much more pumping of liquids to the high side to counteract. Normal procedures are to keep the number of slack tanks at a minimum, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

 

I know on Deadliest Catch they say that slack tanks cause more boats to sink in the Bering Sea than any other cause.

 

P.S. I was on the Sky in April 2000, where you one of the engineers on her then?

[turquoise 6]

Thanks Chengk

That about explains it.

We were caught by surprise , especially at 3am. And being on the QM2, a true

Ocean liner, not a cruise ship , as Cunard says

[chengkp75]

I know on Deadliest Catch they say that slack tanks cause more boats to sink in the Bering Sea than any other cause.

 

P.S. I was on the Sky in April 2000, where you one of the engineers on her then?

 

No, I was on the Sky in 2003-2008, mostly in her guise as Pride of Aloha. We did have to endure a lawyer visit, with videotaping, from the plaintiffs legal team in the 2001 incident. NCL's legal team came first, directing us on what to remove (any company form) things that would be visible during the videotaping in the engine control room and steering gear room. They actually wanted the watch engineer to leave his post during taping, but I told them I would report them to the USCG for that, and they backed down.

[richfret]

Seems like you might know there was a problem, with or without the red zone.

 

But what if you just fell out of your bunk and are yelling ............. "Poseidon .....................

Poseidon" and the Steward has to come in to investigate. Worse yet, if you fell from the top bunk and are yelling some thing worse than Poseidon. Hence the gage with the red zone.

[Viesczy]

I've had my truck on two wheels at a greater angle. Here is my disappointed face. :(

 

:D

 

Inexperienced folks definitely had to been all OMG!

 

'Less you're chest deep, nothing to worry on!

Edited September 9, 2016 by Viesczy

[chengkp75]

Oh, and to dispel another urban myth, the area around where the propeller goes out through the hull is not the weakest point in the ship as is the premise of the movie, but in fact is the strongest section.

[cruiseonthebrain]

Did the draws just fly open or did they end up on the floor?

 

They just flew out- I don't think they actually can fall all the way out onto the floor.

[cruiseonthebrain]

Good time to be hanging out by the quarter pusher machines in the casino....

 

We thought about this too :-) But by the time the ship listed, the casino had already been shut down for several hours. And the machine on the Legend doesn't shoot actual quarters- just some lite fake silver coins. And when they fall, you don't actually get all of them.

[Domino D]

No, I was on the Sky in 2003-2008, mostly in her guise as Pride of Aloha. We did have to endure a lawyer visit, with videotaping, from the plaintiffs legal team in the 2001 incident. NCL's legal team came first, directing us on what to remove (any company form) things that would be visible during the videotaping in the engine control room and steering gear room. They actually wanted the watch engineer to leave his post during taping, but I told them I would report them to the USCG for that, and they backed down.

 

The beautiful thought process that is the corporate legal and loss prevention gang. One mind. One purpose. Logic be damned. I had a company lawyer once say to me "You are talking as if we are at fault in this." My response was "Because we are. It wasn't negligence, but we are at fault." His response was "Well who is at fault isn't the point."

[Domino D]

But what if you just fell out of your bunk and are yelling ............. "Poseidon .....................

Poseidon" and the Steward has to come in to investigate. Worse yet, if you fell from the top bunk and are yelling some thing worse than Poseidon. Hence the gage with the red zone.

 

I can only imagine that some people reading this thread are thinking of things to add to their packing list. You know, like rope, to tie themselves into the bed. But honestly you can just tuck the sheets in really tights.

[erinmarie424]

We thought about this too :-) But by the time the ship listed, the casino had already been shut down for several hours. And the machine on the Legend doesn't shoot actual quarters- just some lite fake silver coins. And when they fall, you don't actually get all of them.

 

Interesting about the fake coins. I know you don't get ALL of them, but you could get SOME of them for nothing. My friend and I happened to be playing a slot machine near the quarter pusher on the Triumph earlier this year when it turned out of the Mississippi into the gulf and got a few dollars worth just for being in the right place at the right time...

[natlteam10]

We were on the Freedom and it listed over pretty bad. My wife and I were in the piano bar with the CD and he said the dining room had just let out and everyone exited to the same side!! Haha. The captain announced shortly thereafter that there had been a malfunction with the steering but it had been corrected. My 2 daughters were in the MDR and they said all the dishes and glassware flew off the table. Many were cut by the glass but no one was seriously injured.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[Shaded Lady]

I was on Magic a couple of years ago, Spa Balcony cabin, so pretty high up. In the middle of the night something happened and our ship listed to the left... I only know because it almost dumped me out of bed when I was sound asleep!

 

No idea how hard the list was but I'm sure it was exaggerated by the high floor we were on. And of course, there was a heck of a storm going on outside. The list only lasted about 2 minutes and I went right back to sleep.

 

The next day during lunch on the Lido deck the same thing happened, but in this case, plates of food and passengers went flying everywhere... and the sun was shining at the time! Everything righted itself after about 2 minutes again, but with so many people around, the hysteria level was a LOT higher!

[JAMESCC]

Great discussion, I am glad I started this thread because I am learning a lot. I'm most interested in the "steering malfunction" because this what happened when we were on the Crown Princess. What the heck is causing this to happen? It continues to happen, why hasn't it been corrected?

[jlee73]

I believe the actual report was 8 degrees. I have been on a ship in the military and in a storm we listed to 18 degrees. That is the closets I have come to walking on walls.

[chengkp75]

Great discussion, I am glad I started this thread because I am learning a lot. I'm most interested in the "steering malfunction" because this what happened when we were on the Crown Princess. What the heck is causing this to happen? It continues to happen, why hasn't it been corrected?

 

I can't say about the Crown Princess, but I do know what caused it on the Norwegian Sky. This is the reason known to everyone on the ship, but it is not the "official" reason in the USCG incident report. A second officer, known to be a "knobulator" (one who has an uncontrollable urge to find out just what every button or knob actually does), changed the heading on the autopilot without either disengaging it or setting the "rate of turn limiter". When the autopilot saw that the ship was on a heading 60* away from the pre-set course (that the second officer had just entered), it swung the rudders "hard over" and the ship listed 30-35*.

 

Sometimes it is "operator error" as above, sometimes something just fails. The autopilot receives several inputs from various sensors around the ship, and a failure of any one of these could cause it to veer off course, or the control between the bridge and the steering (or pods) back aft could either fail or get signal interference. There are redundant systems, but it takes a few seconds to switch over, and in that time, oh boy, the ship can heel over real well.

 

Not every ship has the same steering systems, or propulsion controls, so there is no generic "fix it".

Edited September 9, 2016 by chengkp75

[JAMESCC]

Ok guys, here is the NTSB report of the Crown Princess incident. Please the smart maritime experts here explain to me with your expert eyes what happened. The ship heeled over 24 degrees which is pretty far, too far for comfort. Here is the link.

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/Heeling_Accident_on_MV_Crown_Princess_Atlantic_Ocean_Off_Port_Canaveral_Florida_July_18_2006.aspx

[chengkp75]

Ok guys, here is the NTSB report of the Crown Princess incident. Please the smart maritime experts here explain to me with your expert eyes what happened. The ship heeled over 24 degrees which is pretty far, too far for comfort. Here is the link.

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/Heeling_Accident_on_MV_Crown_Princess_Atlantic_Ocean_Off_Port_Canaveral_Florida_July_18_2006.aspx

 

Pretty obvious, "operator error". Both the Captain and Staff Captain apparently input a large course change just before leaving the bridge, which started the autopilot to swing hard over causing an initial heel, which the second officer (notice a trend here?) disengaged the autopilot, which was correct, but then swung the wheel further to port, exacerbating the heel, and then swung it back and forth, which only started the ship rolling. Poor training and understanding of the equipment on the part of three officers.

 

I was actually thinking of the incident off New Zealand maybe a year ago with a Princess ship.

 

You will note that even though this was investigated by the NTSB, at the request of the USCG (who would be lead agency), both the NTSB and USCG can only make "recommendations" to the IMO via the USCG, to CLIA, and to the equipment manufacturers, since this is a foreign flag vessel, and neither the NTSB nor the USCG have any oversight over and above whether the ship meets SOLAS and IMO requirements.

[JAMESCC]

Pretty obvious, "operator error". Both the Captain and Staff Captain apparently input a large course change just before leaving the bridge, which started the autopilot to swing hard over causing an initial heel, which the second officer (notice a trend here?) disengaged the autopilot, which was correct, but then swung the wheel further to port, exacerbating the heel, and then swung it back and forth, which only started the ship rolling. Poor training and understanding of the equipment on the part of three officers.

 

I was actually thinking of the incident off New Zealand maybe a year ago with a Princess ship.

 

You will note that even though this was investigated by the NTSB, at the request of the USCG (who would be lead agency), both the NTSB and USCG can only make "recommendations" to the IMO via the USCG, to CLIA, and to the equipment manufacturers, since this is a foreign flag vessel, and neither the NTSB nor the USCG have any oversight over and above whether the ship meets SOLAS and IMO requirements.

 

Thanks, operator error yes but what caused the ship to heel in the first place? I mean if they changed the course in the computer then it should just be on a different course not turning hard that it caused a "heel".

[chengkp75]

Thanks, operator error yes but what caused the ship to heel in the first place? I mean if they changed the course in the computer then it should just be on a different course not turning hard that it caused a "heel".

 

The autopilots work on a proportional response. If the actual heading is 1-2* from the set heading, the rudder will move 1-2* to effect the correction. If the actual heading is 10* from desired, the rudder will move 4-6*, but if the actual heading differs by say 25+* from desired, the rudder will move 15-20* to achieve the desired change quickly. And at speeds over 10-12 knots, any rudder motion greater than 10* will cause heeling, let alone the 35* that is possible when the wheel is hard over. This is why autopilots will have a "rate of turn" limiter, so that the ship doesn't try to change course 30* in 20 seconds (which it could), but limits this to 1* every 10 seconds, which in turn limits the rudder movement. There is usually a threshold where the autopilot is programmed to know that a course change of say 30* in autopilot (most times these would be done at sea by switching to hand steering) is an emergency and it will override its own limiters.

[sparks1093]

Ok guys, here is the NTSB report of the Crown Princess incident. Please the smart maritime experts here explain to me with your expert eyes what happened. The ship heeled over 24 degrees which is pretty far, too far for comfort. Here is the link.

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/Heeling_Accident_on_MV_Crown_Princess_Atlantic_Ocean_Off_Port_Canaveral_Florida_July_18_2006.aspx

 

LOL, my first ship in the Navy was a flat bottomed LST and we could do 20 degrees tied to a dock. Okay, maybe not quite that bad but 20 to 30 degree rolls were routine and in heavy weather larger rolls were not uncommon. I was on watch one night and the ship took a sudden 59 degree roll (according to my friends who had eyes on the roll gauges) and that was too far for comfort. :D (A rouge wave was likely the culprit for that one.)

 

I have seen video of a Nimitz class carrier during sea trials heeling over from sharp turns at high speed and it was an impressive sight.

[JAMESCC]

The autopilots work on a proportional response. If the actual heading is 1-2* from the set heading, the rudder will move 1-2* to effect the correction. If the actual heading is 10* from desired, the rudder will move 4-6*, but if the actual heading differs by say 25+* from desired, the rudder will move 15-20* to achieve the desired change quickly. And at speeds over 10-12 knots, any rudder motion greater than 10* will cause heeling, let alone the 35* that is possible when the wheel is hard over. This is why autopilots will have a "rate of turn" limiter, so that the ship doesn't try to change course 30* in 20 seconds (which it could), but limits this to 1* every 10 seconds, which in turn limits the rudder movement. There is usually a threshold where the autopilot is programmed to know that a course change of say 30* in autopilot (most times these would be done at sea by switching to hand steering) is an emergency and it will override its own limiters.

 

OK, sounds very interesting. I learned a lot here. Thanks for all your insight.

[chengkp75]

LOL, my first ship in the Navy was a flat bottomed LST and we could do 20 degrees tied to a dock. Okay, maybe not quite that bad but 20 to 30 degree rolls were routine and in heavy weather larger rolls were not uncommon. I was on watch one night and the ship took a sudden 59 degree roll (according to my friends who had eyes on the roll gauges) and that was too far for comfort. :D (A rouge wave was likely the culprit for that one.)

 

I have seen video of a Nimitz class carrier during sea trials heeling over from sharp turns at high speed and it was an impressive sight.

 

I always chuckle at the poor LST (large, slow target) always being described as "flat bottomed" as if that was unique in ship design. Every ship is flat bottomed. Some have different "GM" or initial stability, which causes them to roll more or less easily. It is actually the shallow draft of the LST that gives it its characteristic roll. And that roll is pretty unique in ship design.

[sparks1093]

I always chuckle at the poor LST (large, slow target) always being described as "flat bottomed" as if that was unique in ship design. Every ship is flat bottomed. Some have different "GM" or initial stability, which causes them to roll more or less easily. It is actually the shallow draft of the LST that gives it its characteristic roll. And that roll is pretty unique in ship design.

 

Huh, even an old sea dog can learn something:). All I know is that I know what a bouncing cork feels like;).