Jews--Consider avoiding sailing with celebrity over the High Holidays

[caribill]

Cruise ships should be secular and not conducting any religious services. If you want to attend a synagogue, church, mosque or any place of worship then do it where you are residing.

 

A good number of those who cruise attend services weekly no matter where they are in the world.

 

You seem to be suggesting that those who find weekly services a necessity never take a cruise which includes the day they attend services at home.

[caribill]

Then should Celebrity provide services for Muslims, Atheists, Pastafarians, etc.? Where does the expectation of entitlement end?

 

 

Answered in a previous post

 

here's what the Celebrity website states:

 

Are religious services available on board?

Celebrity ships offer religious services for Catholic and Jewish faiths, as well as, Interdenominational services during major religious holidays (see detailed information below). Guests of all faiths are able to host their own spiritual fellowship or group gathering by inquiring with the Guest Relations Desk onboard.

 

[sanger727]

whether or not he was told or assumed it would be the first day isn't my main concern. I find it odd that so many replied saying he shouldn't be wanting those services. Here in America we have Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. We pride ourselves in being tolerant of others beliefs. To say if they want a religious service then they should stay home is down right hateful. The OP never implied that other cruisers should be forced to attend them.

 

I didn't hear anyone say that if he wants a religious service that he should stay home. Celebrity had a rabbi on board and offered the religious service that they stated they would. It wasn't to his liking, not in the number of services offered, day and time of service, or the length of the service. If celebrating this holiday in a particular way was of this much importance to him, then he needed to do more to make it happen. Either not cruise during this time, bring his own rabbi and arrange with celebrity for the space, or find synagogues on land in the ports to attend. But it's unreasonable to expect a commercial entity to provide as much in the way of religious services as he could get at home. If all the OP wanted was to arrange his own services and Celebrity banned him from doing that, you would have a freedom of religion issue. This is a case of unreasonable expectation.

[Beanb41]

Whilst Celebrity say they try to accommodate all religions and Catholic and Jewish religions in particular I think it pretty harsh if the fail to meet one's minute details pertaining to their own religion. During a recent cruise in the Eastern Mediterranean I would have loved to have had a clergyman at a post world war 1 commemoration but one didn't identify themselves until too late. Was that X's fault nope. I have found X to be as accommodating as they possibly can to meet all their passengers wishes. Somethings however cant be achieved for numerous reasons.

[Ox Fan Cruiser]

Cruise ships should be secular and not conducting any religious services. If you want to attend a synagogue, church, mosque or any place of worship then do it where you are residing.

 

I didn't hear anyone say that if he wants a religious service that he should stay home.

Then you should read LondonTowner's postings. MonicaJay also agreed.

[Ox Fan Cruiser]

Celebrity are in a bind. If they try to cater to the religious then the non-religious will complain. They cater to one religion and other religions will demand their turn. They ban religious services completely and they get accused of intolerance.

 

The best that Celebrity can do is provide an area where small private events or services can be held on-demand, organised by the passengers themselves. They shouldn't be expected to organise events for every religious group, but nor should they ban them. Perhaps in this case Celebrity didn't properly manage the customer's expectations but I think they did enough in just providing a place and time for the services to be held.

 

Like I said before, I'm NOT saying Celebrity (or any line) Should or Should not provide Religious services.I am say that as a business they should provide what they believe what they see as best for their business. I also stated that the cruiser should seek out what line is best for them and book accordingly..... FREE MARKET.

[lysolqn]

Maybe I think differently than most, but if I want to make sure that my religious holiday is celebrated the way I want it to be, I wouldn't leave it up to a cruise line, a hotel chain, an airline, etc., I would only leave it up to my church. If I go on a cruise during Christmas, I certainly wouldn't be upset if they didn't do the holiday exactly the way I would want it, because I would understand that it is a cruise line and not a church. I think cruise lines try very hard to accommodate all their customers, but they can't be everything to everyone.

 

Well said. I was trying to think of an artful, non-judgmental way to respond to the OP but you seem to have done that for me. Thanks!

Edited November 5, 2016 by lysolqn

[We-R-Off]

The Rabbi conducted the morning service using material prepared by some rabbis and given to him by the ship -He thought that it was excellent but too long considering that we had to be out of the lounge by 9am--they had to set up for some party that was coming in at 9:30He had to skip and shorten the service He kept on looking at his watch and apologizing--Did you guess what group was having the party --my invitation was in my pocket --the rabbi announced the time and place for Sabbath services and at 9am we left. I did not feel that I would be good company and did not attend the 9:30 cruise critic party .

 

Time and place for Jewish services never appeared in the daily Summit Today .It was posted on the community board located in the lobby --beneath Mah Jong and above bridge

 

 

 

I can see how you were confused & disappointed. Erev Rosh Hashona of course would be the embarkation date.

 

On our last Baltic Cruise - I couldn't figure out how they would do Shabbat Services because it wasn't officially dark! I thought the announcement time of services would be on the front page of the the Summit & missed it the first week. The 2nd week I found it listed like the other meetings at 17:30 & attended. It was just before or after an Ilounge class (can't remember).

 

We have attended services before on Celebrity ships which were conducted by other passengers, not a Rabbi. There were printed short booklets which I think were provided by Celebrity as well as wine & challah. If you are a Traditional practicing Jew, these services are not close to regular services & very different from the services in the Synagogue.

 

We attended services twice on Celebrity & once on Princess, but more for the social atmosphere than religious. It was short & a pleasant place to meet people.

 

On the Princess there seemed to be some leadership rivalry going on between two unofficial service makers.

We introduced a few of our tunes which seemed to equalize the battlefield.

 

I had considered cruising during High Holidays, even though I am not religious. However, after your posting, I would personally chose to spend Yom Kippur at home with my family, especially if there's not a sufficient time slot for the services.

 

I think the Rabbi (presumably, paid or receiving a free trip) should have coordinated with Celebrity the time shedule/location where he was going to provide his services. I presume Celebrity only "employ" a Rabbi for High Holidays.

 

Seems to me, that could be a lucrative side line !!!! Makes one consider taking it up for a Free trip (or discounted) with so little work needed !!!!!

 

I don't think any cruise company need to provide services & it is a nice gesture. However, if you were assured there would be services, then that is a little discouraging.

Edited November 5, 2016 by We-R-Off

[We-R-Off]

I am also Jewish, and if I cruised during the High Holy Days, I would not expect hours-long services. Rosh Hashanah services are several hours during the day, and unless you are Reform (or Israeli), it is 2 days, not one. Yom Kippur services are even longer, encompassing most of the day.

 

In any event, IMO, cruising on the High Holy Days violates their spirit, which is one of introspection, reflection and repentance. Services won't make up for that.

 

Sorry slight correction, in Israel Rosh Hashona is two days too.

Live there, so I know that.

[TMLAalum]

On the one Celebrity cruise we took that included the week between Palm Sunday & Easter, the priest didn't catch up with the Millennium out of Hong Kong until Good Friday. We never thought about griping and ranting to Guest Services- but maybe after hearing the OP's complaints we should have? After all, there were 4 Mass-less days that were promised!

 

There are circumstances the prevent clergy of any faith from being aboard a ship during religious holidays. With 9 ships (+Expedition) in the fleet at ports scattered over the globe it's amazing when Celebrity does coordinate having a rabbi or priest or minister aboard at the appropriate time and place!

 

After all this brouhaha, it wouldn't surprise me if Celebrity no longer offers religious services as described in their brochures and on the website, and I wouldn't blame the line one bit.

Edited November 5, 2016 by TMLAalum

[wombatjoey]

I assume that you are therefore against having ships with Xmas decorations and Xmas trees in December.

 

I have not sailed on Celebrity yet, but on Princess and RCCL every Sunday there are services for Christians (conducted by clergy or ship's personnel) and every Friday evening there are services for Jews (conducted by passengers). These are usually mentioned in the daily summary of activities.

 

Nobody is forced to go to any of these services and their existence should not detract from anyone's on-board experience.

 

Christmas trees, halloween decorations, valentines, super bowl, crossing the equator, whatever else, are all decorations of seasons, traditions, fun etc.

 

I can think of many more, does not at all equate to what the OP and others here are suggesting.

 

Celeb may have offered an effort to provide some services in its manifesto, but no one should expect it to be up to their own personal stadards.

 

Yes there IS freedom from religion.

[spookwife]

A good number of those who cruise attend services weekly no matter where they are in the world.

 

You seem to be suggesting that those who find weekly services a necessity never take a cruise which includes the day they attend services at home.

 

yes but those people find their OWN places to worship. they do not mandate or expect that the cruise line provide them with them. IIRC the daily planners for ports will list area places of worship but that is as far as they go.

[spookwife]

whether or not he was told or assumed it would be the first day isn't my main concern. I find it odd that so many replied saying he shouldn't be wanting those services. Here in America we have Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion. We pride ourselves in being tolerant of others beliefs. To say if they want a religious service then they should stay home is down right hateful. The OP never implied that other cruisers should be forced to attend them.

 

we are saying he was wrong to expect Celebrity to provide him with services particular to HIS requirements. he got a service. just not one he deemed good enough. that is the issue.

 

one of the Base COs in Japan when we lived there was jewish. the 4 Chaplains on base were all christian and could only provide a very basic watered down Sabbath, and forget the more rigorous requirements for a High Holy Day. Thus, the CO and his family sponsored out of their own pocket a Rabbi to come and conduct services for the HHD. they invited anyone who wished to attend and thus they got exactly what their personal faith mandated.

[spookwife]

To the OP: if you want your religious services performed, I suggest you cruise Crystal where there's a Rabbi and a Priest on every cruise. Better yet, take a world cruise on Crystal where they have a Priest, a Rabbi AND a Protestant Minister. Rabbi Morris Hershman has become a fixture on Crystal and is much beloved.

 

As far as Celebrity is concerned, they used to have a Priest on every cruise as well as a Rabbi on quite a few cruises a year, and services were published. But from what I understand, they had complaints that religious services should not be part of the cruise experience, so they only have religious personnel during religious holidays.

 

actually a large part of the problem is that there are no longer enough Priests. they used to have a butt ton of retired and ad hoc ones to invite along. but now most of them have died off, and fewer are entering the priesthood, stretching them thin. My parents' old church, the Monseigneur is still there are close to 80 because they literally have no replacements for him should he retire. he has ONE priest under him who actually splits his time between 2 or 3 different churches the city. all the rest are Deacons.

[4774Papa]

Cruise ships should be secular and not conducting any religious services. If you want to attend a synagogue, church, mosque or any place of worship then do it where you are residing.

 

Personally, DW and I have no particular need for religious services while on a cruise. However, I understand that some people, not just a few, desire those services. Having services on board for others does not offend us, unless the Captain or cruise line makes attendance mandatory, which it not going to happen.

 

If a cruise line advertises that such services will be provided, then the line should follow up on its promise.

The free market will decide the propriety of offering services and how well the cruise line complies with its promises.

[Fish Lover]

I truly don't understand why anyone would expect a cruise line to offer religious services. Because you are sleeping there? Hotels don;t offer services in their lobby. Why?

 

Also, there is nothing to prevent a person from observing religious practices in the privacy of their own room. Does it always have to be in public and orchestrated by a third party?

 

It's your choice when to travel. Why not choose a more convenient time?

 

Also, I read the OP's posting history. Back a couple years ago he complained about noise waking him up from a service door opening and closing. Celebrity moved his room, and gave him and his wife each a $300 credit on his next cruise. I think he's just looking for another generous accommodation from Celebrity and when it wasn't forthcoming he decided to complain here and "try again". Shame on him.

[DirtyDawg]

I truly don't understand why anyone would expect a cruise line to offer religious services. Because you are sleeping there? Hotels don;t offer services in their lobby. Why?

 

Perhaps because if you are staying at a hotel you can walk down the street to a Church or Synagogue etc. Try that in the middle of the Atlantic!:eek:

Edited November 5, 2016 by DirtyDawg

[PoppyandNana]

Christmas trees, halloween decorations, valentines, super bowl, crossing the equator, whatever else, are all decorations of seasons, traditions, fun etc.

 

I can think of many more, does not at all equate to what the OP and others here are suggesting.

 

Celeb may have offered an effort to provide some services in its manifesto, but no one should expect it to be up to their own personal stadards.

 

Yes there IS freedom from religion.

 

Yes there is freedom FROM religion

[2theship]

The presence of a rabbi is not necessary to conduct a Jewish worship service. I've rarely been on a ship when a rabbi's been on board. We enjoy Shabbat services because it's a joyous occasion to gather with new friends and welcome the Sabbath bride, sing a few songs, say a few prayers then go on our way.

 

We were on a Princess ship Rosh Hashana 2015. There was no observance for the evening service but we were given a space for the morning. The ship provided nothing, despite having promised that they would. Nonetheless, the large group of us who gathered shared some stories and got to know each other. We were home in time for Yom Kippur because it's a more introspective holiday. And seriously, I'm not going to fast on a ship.

[El Crucero]

I assume that you are therefore against having ships with Xmas decorations and Xmas trees in December.

 

Christmas decorations and Christmas trees (love how you use Xmas) are not Christian or religious symbols. These symbols date back to ancient history where they were symbols of renewal, rebirth, winter solstice, and communion with nature. We always decorate our home (inside and out) to the nines with environmental symbolism every December and we are on the home tour every year and voted second best in our community (second to our neighbor who was the Director of Commercial Display for the Tommy Bahama chain). ;)

[El Crucero]

You seem to be suggesting that those who find weekly services a necessity never take a cruise which includes the day they attend services at home.

 

No, what he is saying is that those who find weekly services a necessity should not expect a cruise line to provide services found at home.

[Guest]

I am Jewish and even am offended by this persons title.Religion is very subjective. I think they had unreasonable expectations. They should not have complained.It is all whats in your heart.

[El Crucero]

Answered in a previous post

Guests of all faiths are able to host their own spiritual fellowship or group gathering by inquiring with the Guest Relations Desk onboard.

 

I agree with Celebrity's policies. If Jews and Catholics and Non-denominational Christians want spiritual fellowship or group gatherings, they should do it on their own and stop complaining because they feel like they are special.

[digital_curator]

Christmas decorations and Christmas trees (love how you use Xmas) are not Christian or religious symbols. These symbols date back to ancient history where they were symbols of renewal, rebirth, winter solstice, and communion with nature. We always decorate our home (inside and out) to the nines with environmental symbolism every December and we are on the home tour every year and voted second best in our community (second to our neighbor who was the Director of Commercial Display for the Tommy Bahama chain). ;)

 

Actually, these are religious symbols just not Christian ones. For Wiccans and other pagan groups, these are tied to Yule, one of the four major sabbats.

[NLH Arizona]

You seem to be suggesting that those who find weekly services a necessity never take a cruise which includes the day they attend services at home.

I think what people are saying is that if it is important to someone how a particular service is administered during any religious holiday, then sailing on a cruise ship at those times might end up causing them frustration. And maybe picking another vacation venue (where services would be more to their liking) or staying at home and having that service in their place of worship, might be more enjoyable to them around those important holidays.