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NCL Cruise Service Charge Refund

bussub

By bussub,
in Norwegian Cruise Line

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fshagan

fshagan

Posted
Posted
What I don't understand, if someone feels what NCL and the other cruise lines are are doing is so bad, then why do they continue to give them money (their cruise fare) and do business with them. If I thought a business was unethical, I certainly wouldn't be doing business with them.

 

I totally agree with you here. For me, I can't hand money over to a company or industry I think is actively involved in exploitation. That makes me an active participant in the exploitation, and just as morally guilty as they are. That's why I investigated the cruise line salaries and treatment to see if I thought the workers were exploited. I would have given up cruising, but what I found out was that I can happily cruise knowing the workers are improving their lives just like workers everywhere.

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Expat Cruise

Expat Cruise

Posted
Posted
I totally agree with you here. For me, I can't hand money over to a company or industry I think is actively involved in exploitation. That makes me an active participant in the exploitation, and just as morally guilty as they are. That's why I investigated the cruise line salaries and treatment to see if I thought the workers were exploited. I would have given up cruising, but what I found out was that I can happily cruise knowing the workers are improving their lives just like workers everywhere.

 

Except that NCL is not required to operate by US Standards. Things like fair working conditions, overtime, minimum wage rules all do not apply. They operate within the countries they are incorporated and ships flagged and under those rules. So when someone agrees to pay these optional fees they are then also responsible for the exploitation of the crew. By not paying these optional fees you can send a message to Mr Del Rio that you will not help in to exploited his crews.

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Maniacal Cruiser

Maniacal Cruiser

Posted
Posted
Except that NCL is not required to operate by US Standards. Things like fair working conditions, overtime, minimum wage rules all do not apply. They operate within the countries they are incorporated and ships flagged and under those rules. So when someone agrees to pay these optional fees they are then also responsible for the exploitation of the crew. By not paying these optional fees you can send a message to Mr Del Rio that you will not help in to exploited his crews.

 

 

Your entire argument is based on the false premise that the crew is exploited.

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Expat Cruise

Expat Cruise

Posted
Posted
Your entire argument is based on the false premise that the crew is exploited.

 

Sorry if some do not like the facts just do a simply search "are cruise ship crews exploited?"

 

https://waronwant.org/sweatships

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2012/05/articles/crew-member-rights/profits-over-people-carnivals-exploitation-of-crew-members-is-standard-industry-practice/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/apr/29/cruise-firm-performance-bonuses-tips

 

https://www.tourismconcern.org.uk/floating-abominations-exposing-the-cruise-ship-industry/

 

http://mentalfloss.com/article/70240/14-behind-scenes-secrets-cruise-ship-workers

Seems very clear that the Crew Industry is built on exploitation. Could list any number of links, they show this to be accurate and true.

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MrMike45

MrMike45

Posted
Posted

 

And yet...you still go on these cruise ships. They do not say NCL crews are the only ones exploited.

 

So what you're basically telling yourself is that by removing your DSC, it washes your hands of any participation and guilt from the exploitation of the workers.

 

OK :rolleyes:

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xriva

xriva

Posted
Posted
Sorry if some do not like the facts just do a simply search "are cruise ship crews exploited?"

 

Seems very clear that the Crew Industry is built on exploitation. Could list any number of links, they show this to be accurate and true.

 

A bunch of people saying the same thing does not make it true. See any side of any political argument, which this is.

 

If you don't like the practice, don't sail. Also, if you don't like people paid below minimum wage with bonuses from tips, don't eat in virtually any US restaurant.

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SeaShark

SeaShark

Posted
Posted

 

 

Since your position is that it is "very clear that the Crew Industry is built on exploitation" (I'm assuming you meant "Cruise Industry") and since you've obviously done some research/reading on the topic as evidenced by your many links, perhaps you could shed some light on just why so many people from the Philippines are willing to work in the industry. What legitimate considerations are there that override the "very clear exploitation" aspect of the job??

 

If workers from the Philippines are so very clearly being exploited, why hasn't your government taken steps to stop the practice or to protect their citizens??

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NLH Arizona

NLH Arizona

Posted
Posted
Except that NCL is not required to operate by US Standards. Things like fair working conditions, overtime, minimum wage rules all do not apply. They operate within the countries they are incorporated and ships flagged and under those rules. So when someone agrees to pay these optional fees they are then also responsible for the exploitation of the crew. By not paying these optional fees you can send a message to Mr Del Rio that you will not help in to exploited his crews.
My goodness, you really need to do some research. The crew is covered by the Maritime Labor Convention (MLC 2006), which sets a minimum wage for all mariners, not just cruise ship crew.

 

This is from an Officer that worked for the cruise lines and has posted factual information on here many, many times.

 

The only thing that is "guaranteed" to a crewmember is the minimum total compensation, which is currently $614/month for a40 hour work week, plus overtime at 125% of the base wage for hours over40/week. This totals out to about $1500/month. If the base wage, overtime, andDSC totals more than this, per their contract, they get that much, if the DSCis reduced, their wages can drop to the above minimum.

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SeaShark

SeaShark

Posted
Posted

 

 

We'll call this one "food for thought"...

 

If you benefit from the services of a worker in a tipped position, and you either reduce or remove the DSC/gratuity/tip from your bill, are you not then guilty of exploiting that worker? If not, please explain how taking the service, and not paying isn't exploitation?

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ColeThornton Holiday Sharing Rare

ColeThornton

Posted
Posted

 

Well, obviously human exploitation isn't a problem for you. So, why worry? :rolleyes:

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graphicguy "Live from...." Rare

graphicguy

Posted
Posted

I've always been curious about this. The vast majority of crew on any cruise line I've sailed, have been from the Philippines. I gotta say, while their contracts last several months, and they are away from their families for months at a time, the crew I've met seem to always have several contracts under their belt, and willing to sign another.

 

ExPat...looks like you're from the Philippines. Do you have any insight to why that is if they're exploited by the cruise lines?

 

As an aside, aside from NCL's Hawaii cruises, I think all the cruise lines register their ships in other countries outside of the U.S.

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Shoppie124

Shoppie124

Posted
Posted

As I read this thread, it brings more questions. I realize these people are paid a low salary but is their room and board factored into the equation?

 

I realize you cannot support a family in these wages but I think that’s a choice made by the individual. Just like it’s a choice to be an electrician, seamstress or a burger flipper. Who are we to condemn those who own or work in this industry? By not paying the suggested gratuity, you have to ask yourself are you part of the problem? Or maybe ask for your gratuity refund and hand it directly to the staff???

 

Want to be effective and call for change? Be part of the solution instead of protesting.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

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Gampy1967

Gampy1967

Posted
Posted
Point taken. In the US, Canada and quite a bite of Europe you couldn’t.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

Which is why you don't see many Americans, Canadians, or Europeans in the service jobs on the ship. Everyone wants to keep complaining about the "horribly paid and disadvantage worker" but nobody wants to pay more for a cruise or anything else for that matter. Want to know why most automobiles and clothing are made outside the US? Because our wages are higher and nobody wants to pay an extra 2-3k for a car or $50 for a shirt when they can get similar quality for half the cost. You realize when you go into Dillard's and purchase that $30-$40 polo it is made by someone in the far east or central america making pennies on the dollar. It is not just the cruise industry.

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SeaShark

SeaShark

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Posted
Point taken. In the US, Canada and quite a bite of Europe you couldn’t.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

Correct, but that is why you don't see a lot of crew from the US, Canada, and quite a bit of Europe.

 

Circling back to my earlier comments to the poster in the Philippines, the average annual family income of Filipino families (source: http://psa.gov.ph/survey/annual-poverty-indicator) is approximately 267 thousand pesos. This equates to $5,034 in US dollars.

 

Think about that...$5,034 for an entire family for an entire year. That is the average.

 

 

Now compare that against what a worker can make on a cruise line.

 

 

Sure, based on the cost of living in New York City the wages paid to a cruise line worker might seem to cry "exploitation". However, when the average family in the country makes $5,034 per year, then the "exploitation" aspect dries up pretty quickly.

 

 

Again...these are people coming from a place where the average family only sees $5,034 per year. Given that, what justification could someone possibly have for reducing/removing their tips?

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TFLG

TFLG

Posted
Posted

 

Again...these are people coming from a place where the average family only sees $5,034 per year. Given that, what justification could someone possibly have for reducing/removing their tips?

 

Some people are just cheap, they don't need any justification. I've had some terrible waiters, once or twice a mediocre room steward and a few time interacted with some really grumpy bartenders. But to consider removing the service charge never crossed my mind (nor will it for the vast majority of people). But there's a small minority that will look for any reason to justify in thier mind the removal of those charges. You can't guilt them or reason with them, thats just the way they are.

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erdoran

erdoran

Posted
Posted

OMG now DSC is charity????

 

How about the underpaid workers at various stores, fast food restaurants, regular restaurants, teacher's aides, people who can't find work at all but are out busting their rears looking, lunchroom workers, pizza delivery guys, illegals who work in fields, aides who take care of the elderly and disabled, nursing home workers, dry cleaner workers, etc, etc? This is the ENTITLEMENT "pay up because these people don't make much $$" that is a huge turnoff! If having low income REQUIRES anyone who benefits from their service to automatically tip them for adequate service because they have low income then I think all of us are guilty of not doing our share to subsidize low-income people who we interact with.

 

As for "don't deprive the poor, underpaid crew member" - your argument is for GIVE EACH OF THEM A CASH TIP THAT THEY GET TO KEEP, so you know they truly benefit. And don't give me "cheap" - I'm responding to your point.

 

Remember it's been said that each employee is guaranteed a minimum, even if there is $0 DSC paid. How does removing DSC punish the staff if they are paid anyway? It "punishes" the CRUISE LINE by forcing them to pay their staff from their revenue, rather than taxing the pax to pay salaries. So if the reason to pay DSC is "the poor crew comes from a country where their income is very, very low and you are punishing them if you don't" - OMG

 

Perhaps a BETTER reason to pay DSC is "whether or not we agree with it, the industry-standard in the cruising industry is to expect pax to pay this so the cruiseline can display an artificially-low fare. That's the norm. Just consider it part of your fare". IMHO the guilt trip to pay the DSC may well originate with the cruise lines themselves, to increase their revenue.

 

The "what justification can somebody have for removing their tips because they are so poor" - so they are ENTITLED to tips no matter how terrible the service is? Isn't tipping to reward GOOD service? Instead of the guilt, try "DSC is part of the fare". Period.

 

PS: I pay my DSC. Don't call me cheap.

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Seminole1975

Seminole1975

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

I scanned through all of these and not once did I see NCL mentioned. Royal Caribbean and Carnival are reported to be the worst offenders. Yes these folks work long hours and do not get paid to the US or UK or Canadian or Australian standards. These workers are not doing things against their will. They are making more money in most cases than they would make in their own country. They have choices. They can quit. I am sure that there have been a few cases of abuse as in any industry BUT I truly think that if you take away the DSC the workers will feel the pinch not the CEO!

 

You also have to consider the source of these articles. For example Mental Floss is a magazine about interesting facts. Their article is about things you might not know about cruising. Nothing mentioned was that bad. Tourismconcern is a blog. The author suggested that you stop cruising.

 

If you truly believe that cruise workers are being "exploited" then I think it is hypocritical to go on a cruise for vacation. Go on an ECO land tour and do something for the environment. Take a week off and go build houses somewhere. There are lots of opportunities to make this world a better place. But you are not going to do it by taking away the DSC! And if you must, if you want to feel good or superior about yourself, give that money to a charity in the Philippines or Indonesia.

Edited by Seminole1975
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LMaxwell Great Review Rare

LMaxwell

Posted
Posted

I pay my DSC. Don't call me cheap.

 

We are past that. Now if you don't pay more people consider you cheap. Pay multiples more to cruise in the Haven so someone can bring you a 3PM snack and you are expected to pay hundreds of dollars more in cash tips because that workers earns almost nothing. So they did so well with the company for so many years that they are rewarded with a cushy, non-paying job. Makes perfect sense, right?

 

Look at any conversation about how much to tip a concierge; right away you get people saying "Well, I never interacted with them, I never asked them for anything, so $100 seems fine; you know they make sure someone else fills a coffee machine..." or some such nonsense.

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LMaxwell Great Review Rare

LMaxwell

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Posted
No one has ever said that.

You may not have said it, and I'd believe you haven't said it, but it comes up frequently on here and social media and you should read the outright badgering of people about it. It's a shame really.

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LMaxwell Great Review Rare

LMaxwell

Posted
Posted
I don't think anyone said or implied that not giving extra above the DSC is cheap. Only those who take away the DSC. Don't give the excuse you tip in cash. Baloney.

 

Jump in any Haven thread and read a few minutes.

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