Missing Embarkation—can I board at first port reached?

[chengkp75]

No. Doesn't matter that RC would be paying the airfare to get you re-acommodated; boarding at Port Canaveral would still violate the PVSA so you'd still have to be flown to Nassau and board there.

 

If it was caused by something outside the control of the cruise line or the passenger, like a weather delay or cancellation of a flight, the cruise line would fly you to Canaveral, pay the fine (it is after all, their fine not the passenger's), and apply for a variance, which would in most cases be granted for something like weather.

[actuarian]

 

You cannot board in one US port and disembark in a different US port. (in the case of the example, board in Port Canaveral and disembark in Bayonne, NJ). This is a violation of the PVSA.

 

What happens if you board the ship in Bayonne, get off at Port Canaveral as you might at any port stop, and fail to get back on time to re-board the ship? Will you (or the cruise line) be fined?

[tekguy26]

Wow, this is very interesting news to hear. We were sailing on Anthem of the Seas back on March 9. In case anybody recalls, there was that northeaster bomb cyclone happening that week. There were already flight cancellations into Newark that week, so I started working on a contingency. I called the cruise line, and asked them what my options were if my flight was cancelled and I couldn't board. I was told, I would have to call ahead to let them know I would meet them at the next port (Port Canaveral). If I didn't call it, it would be considered a no-show. I even called my CC to check on my coverage, and this would have been covered under trip interruption benefit which would cover my flights to Orlando. FORTUNATELY, the weather cleared up just in time, so I was sweating a bit. But made it without issue.

 

RC never mentioned this issue, so I'm glad somebody raised this as a possible issue.

[chengkp75]

What happens if you board the ship in Bayonne, get off at Port Canaveral as you might at any port stop, and fail to get back on time to re-board the ship? Is that a crime?

 

The cruise line would get fined for violating the PVSA, and the ticket contract you agree to gives them the right to pass the fine along to you. Recently, the fine has increased from $300 to $765.

[pthjudy]

If it was caused by something outside the control of the cruise line or the passenger, like a weather delay or cancellation of a flight, the cruise line would fly you to Canaveral, pay the fine (it is after all, their fine not the passenger's), and apply for a variance, which would in most cases be granted for something like weather.

Several years ago we were on a back to back Princess Cruise. The second cruise was to Bermuda from NY. Hurricane Sandy was coming up the coast so Princess decided to go in the opposite direction to Boston. This too was in violation of the infamous Jones Act. I wonder if they had to pay a fine for each passenger onboard or was it all waived. (Princess was very generous in refunding half of the fare despite the fact we got 2 extra days since the NY Port was flooded and they had to find another place to dock.)

[broberts]

The cruise line would get fined for violating the PVSA, and the ticket contract you agree to gives them the right to pass the fine along to you. Recently, the fine has increased from $300 to $765.

 

Would you know if exceptions are generally made for such things as medical evacuations?

[Biker19]

I thought that if you had purchased air from RC and for some reason were delayed so ship left without you, the cruise line would get you to the next port. I KNOW this is not the circumstance questioned, but conceivably someone flying in to NJ could be delayed and next port IS Port Canaveral. Would that scenario not be allowed?

The air portion has no bearing on being allowed downline embarkation - PVSA still applies. RCI would fly you to Nassau.

[Biker19]

Would you know if exceptions are generally made for such things as medical evacuations?

Yes, as well as weather or port issues.

[SFBayAreaShipLover]

Several years ago we were on a back to back Princess Cruise. The second cruise was to Bermuda from NY. Hurricane Sandy was coming up the coast so Princess decided to go in the opposite direction to Boston. This too was in violation of the infamous Jones Act. I wonder if they had to pay a fine for each passenger onboard or was it all waived. (Princess was very generous in refunding half of the fare despite the fact we got 2 extra days since the NY Port was flooded and they had to find another place to dock.)

 

 

 

Did it stop in Canada?

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Did it stop in Canada?

 

 

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Doesn't matter. Canada has no "distant" foreign ports, so a cruise from NY to Boston would be in violation of the PVSA, but as mentioned, PVSA is waived in cases of weather or mechanical failures causing missed ports.

[Biker19]

Did it stop in Canada?

It wouldn't make a diff.

[chengkp75]

Would you know if exceptions are generally made for such things as medical evacuations?

 

Yes, as well as weather or port issues.

 

For medical evacuations, and even death, the fine will be levied, paid by the cruise line, passed on to the passenger, and then the cruise line will leave it to the passenger to apply for a refund of the fine. On rare occasions, the cruise line will apply for the waiver themselves, but not generally.

[SFBayAreaShipLover]

Doesn't matter. Canada has no "distant" foreign ports, so a cruise from NY to Boston would be in violation of the PVSA, but as mentioned, PVSA is waived in cases of weather or mechanical failures causing missed ports.

 

 

 

True, how do cruise lines get around on the west coast coastal in example San Francisco, stops in Santa Barbara, Long Beach, San Diego. Ensenada return to SF. Guess that south of boarder enough? Or Repo Cruises to Vancouver from SF

 

 

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[Clarea]

True, how do cruise lines get around on the west coast coastal in example San Francisco, stops in Santa Barbara, Long Beach, San Diego. Ensenada return to SF. Guess that south of boarder enough? Or Repo Cruises to Vancouver from SF

If you start and end in the same US port, you only have to go to any foreign port (Canada or Mexico on the West Coast).

 

If you start and end in different US ports, then you have to go to a distant foreign port, which I think is somewhere in the South Pacific for West Coast cruises.

[Biker19]

True, how do cruise lines get around on the west coast coastal in example San Francisco, stops in Santa Barbara, Long Beach, San Diego. Ensenada return to SF. Guess that south of boarder enough?

Yes, they just need to go to any foreign port.

[jsausley]

Aren't there cruises that depart from Alaska and end in Seattle? Or do they all end in Vancouver?

 

Seems like a one-leg Alaska > Seattle would violate PVSA if my understanding is correct.

[Biker19]

Aren't there cruises that depart from Alaska and end in Seattle? Or do they all end in Vancouver?

Round trip from Seattle or one way to/from Vancouver.

[A&L_Ont]

I have a question. How does my upcoming Southbound Alaska Cruise not violate the PVSA?

 

It leaves from Seward and ends in Vancouver with port stops only in the US. The only non-US stop is disembarkation day in Vancouver, which to my understanding is not a foreign port of call? Obviously it has to be in compliance, but how? Its not like they'd pass the fine onto passengers.

 

I guess the same could be asked for my past re-positioning cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii.

 

Thanks for the answers.

[Clarea]

I have a question. How does my upcoming Southbound Alaska Cruise not violate the PVSA?

 

It leaves from Seward and ends in Vancouver with port stops only in the US. The only non-US stop is disembarkation day in Vancouver, which to my understanding is not a foreign port of call? Obviously it has to be in compliance, but how? Its not like they'd pass the fine onto passengers.

 

I guess the same could be asked for my past re-positioning cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii.

 

Thanks for the answers.

Andrew, has Canada ceded Vancouver to the US?

[Cruise Junky]

I have a question. How does my upcoming Southbound Alaska Cruise not violate the PVSA?

 

It leaves from Seward and ends in Vancouver with port stops only in the US. The only non-US stop is disembarkation day in Vancouver, which to my understanding is not a foreign port of call? Obviously it has to be in compliance, but how? Its not like they'd pass the fine onto passengers.

 

I guess the same could be asked for my past re-positioning cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii.

 

Thanks for the answers.

 

I’ll ignore that you just gave us to the US...shudder. The PVSA only applies if you embark and disembark at US ports. In your case, the PVSA doesn’t apply as you disembark in Canada.

[chengkp75]

I have a question. How does my upcoming Southbound Alaska Cruise not violate the PVSA?

 

It leaves from Seward and ends in Vancouver with port stops only in the US. The only non-US stop is disembarkation day in Vancouver, which to my understanding is not a foreign port of call? Obviously it has to be in compliance, but how? Its not like they'd pass the fine onto passengers.

 

I guess the same could be asked for my past re-positioning cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii.

 

Thanks for the answers.

 

The PVSA only applies if you board in a US port and disembark in a US port, since the act only applies to transportation between US ports. A cruise that begins and ends in the same US port is fine under the PVSA, since you have not been transported to a different US port. A cruise that begins and ends in different US ports must meet the requirements of the PVSA of calling at a "distant" foreign port.

 

A cruise that begins in a US port, and ends in a foreign port (like your Alaska cruise) transports you between the US and a foreign country, so the PVSA does not apply. Similarly, a cruise that begins in a foreign port and ends in a US port (like your Hawaii cruise) transports you between a foreign country and the US, so the PVSA does not apply.

 

The key is that the PVSA is a "cabotage" law, or one that restricts "coastwise" trade, which is defined as trade along one country's coastline. Beginning or ending in a foreign country takes the PVSA completely out of the picture, as this is international transportation.

[SFBayAreaShipLover]

The PVSA only applies if you board in a US port and disembark in a US port, since the act only applies to transportation between US ports. A cruise that begins and ends in the same US port is fine under the PVSA, since you have not been transported to a different US port. A cruise that begins and ends in different US ports must meet the requirements of the PVSA of calling at a "distant" foreign port.

 

 

 

A cruise that begins in a US port, and ends in a foreign port (like your Alaska cruise) transports you between the US and a foreign country, so the PVSA does not apply. Similarly, a cruise that begins in a foreign port and ends in a US port (like your Hawaii cruise) transports you between a foreign country and the US, so the PVSA does not apply.

 

 

 

The key is that the PVSA is a "cabotage" law, or one that restricts "coastwise" trade, which is defined as trade along one country's coastline. Beginning or ending in a foreign country takes the PVSA completely out of the picture, as this is international transportation.

 

 

Thanks for reminding how it works. Seems like a useless law. American flag ships are great if you can provide quality hard working crews, I mainly mean on the hotel side. PrIde of America and the reflagged NCL that was reflagged for a short time, Now down to one ship, They have great officers and mariners but suffered on hotel end and ended up with being allowed to rotate a percentage of foreign crew on hotel staff.it is ironic that Pride of America is one NCLs top net revenue vessel if not number 1

 

 

 

 

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[A&L_Ont]

Thank you all for the answers. I should have realized that it wasn’t a US to US cruise, like my normal Caribbean ones.

[chengkp75]

Thanks for reminding how it works. Seems like a useless law. American flag ships are great if you can provide quality hard working crews, I mainly mean on the hotel side. PrIde of America and the reflagged NCL that was reflagged for a short time, Now down to one ship, They have great officers and mariners but suffered on hotel end and ended up with being allowed to rotate a percentage of foreign crew on hotel staff.it is ironic that Pride of America is one NCLs top net revenue vessel if not number 1

 

 

 

 

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It is only considered useless if you think of it as the "Cruise Vessel Services Act", and not the "Passenger Vessel Services Act", and take into consideration the international definition of a "passenger vessel", which is any vessel that carries more than 12 persons for hire. Therefore, the PVSA protects the tens of thousands of US jobs on ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, duck boat tours, whale watching tours, dinner cruises, casino boats, and even larger charter fishing vessels. Without the PVSA, all the officers and crew on these multiple types of vessels could be foreign crew, meeting only the international STCW standards of training and certification, not the more stringent USCG standards, the vessels would not have to meet USCG standards for safety, and the companies would not have to meet US labor or tax laws.

 

As to the POA. All US vessels are allowed to hire up to 25% of the unlicensed crew as US legal resident aliens (green card holders) (all licensed officers must be US citizens). The law passed for NCL to allow NRAC (non-resident alien crew) onboard still limits the non-citizens to 25% (now being a combination of Green Card and NRAC), the NRAC have to obtain US Merchant Mariner Credentials (including the background check), have to have been employed by NCL for a minimum of 10 years prior, and NCL has to obtain a work visa for them, not just the far easier to obtain crew visa.

 

I'm not sure that the POA is the top net revenue earner in NCL. It may be the top gross revenue earner, but I can tell you that the expenses to operate the ship under US flag is what makes the cruises so expensive. A 7 day cruise on POA is about the same cost as a 15 day cruise from the West Coast on a foreign flag ship, and that ship uses 3-4 times the fuel that POA does. The Congressional Budget Office has determined that the difference in operating a cargo ship, with its much smaller crew, as a US flag vessel, over operating as a foreign flag vessel, is $1.4 million/year. You can probably factor that by a factor of 10 for a cruise ship, especially when you add in the added cost of operating in Hawaii. Fuel alone is about 150% of what it is on the West Coast. Just getting a new crew member to the gangway for his/her first day of work costs NCL about $8000 (training, certification) and that crew member is free to quit and walk off the ship at any time, and we had many do just that within an hour of boarding the ship. I was part of the NCL US flag fleet from the time it started (an original officer on the Pride of Aloha, even before it reflagged from the Sky) until the Aloha left and was reflagged back to the Sky, leaving only the POA.

[SFBayAreaShipLover]

It is only considered useless if you think of it as the "Cruise Vessel Services Act", and not the "Passenger Vessel Services Act", and take into consideration the international definition of a "passenger vessel", which is any vessel that carries more than 12 persons for hire. Therefore, the PVSA protects the tens of thousands of US jobs on ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, duck boat tours, whale watching tours, dinner cruises, casino boats, and even larger charter fishing vessels. Without the PVSA, all the officers and crew on these multiple types of vessels could be foreign crew, meeting only the international STCW standards of training and certification, not the more stringent USCG standards, the vessels would not have to meet USCG standards for safety, and the companies would not have to meet US labor or tax laws.

 

 

 

As to the POA. All US vessels are allowed to hire up to 25% of the unlicensed crew as US legal resident aliens (green card holders) (all licensed officers must be US citizens). The law passed for NCL to allow NRAC (non-resident alien crew) onboard still limits the non-citizens to 25% (now being a combination of Green Card and NRAC), the NRAC have to obtain US Merchant Mariner Credentials (including the background check), have to have been employed by NCL for a minimum of 10 years prior, and NCL has to obtain a work visa for them, not just the far easier to obtain crew visa.

 

 

 

I'm not sure that the POA is the top net revenue earner in NCL. It may be the top gross revenue earner, but I can tell you that the expenses to operate the ship under US flag is what makes the cruises so expensive. A 7 day cruise on POA is about the same cost as a 15 day cruise from the West Coast on a foreign flag ship, and that ship uses 3-4 times the fuel that POA does. The Congressional Budget Office has determined that the difference in operating a cargo ship, with its much smaller crew, as a US flag vessel, over operating as a foreign flag vessel, is $1.4 million/year. You can probably factor that by a factor of 10 for a cruise ship, especially when you add in the added cost of operating in Hawaii. Fuel alone is about 150% of what it is on the West Coast. Just getting a new crew member to the gangway for his/her first day of work costs NCL about $8000 (training, certification) and that crew member is free to quit and walk off the ship at any time, and we had many do just that within an hour of boarding the ship. I was part of the NCL US flag fleet from the time it started (an original officer on the Pride of Aloha, even before it reflagged from the Sky) until the Aloha left and was reflagged back to the Sky, leaving only the POA.

 

 

 

I Agree that the passage secures lot of jobs, those aren’t the ones I was referring too. I have worked on lot ferries and smaller coastal passenger ships, and MARAD port engineer, before becoming a shipyard project manager.

 

Just saying if better mix on hotel staff end maybe more US flags would be out there. Read about POA earning during a recent stockholders earning report about its revenue. I was suppressed too. Well double check. Frank Rio talked about it.

 

NCL is always having slot to hire for on POA, that’s lot of training costs. Have heard good reports from passengers lately on the crew

 

 

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