Mandatory Tipping ant

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

And if you sail with a line that lets you remove them, do what suits you. Really it’s no one else’s business.

 

Right, it is no one else’s business.  But if you do talk about stiffing the crew by removing the tips, you are telling strangers about YOUR “business”,  and you should not be surprised if some of them respond with negative comments about your character.

[JMorris271]

21 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

 

 

Nope, never gonna happen.  Prices will rise, perhaps gradually over several months, but they will rise to pay the staff what they are expecting. To think differently is being very clueless as to what large companies MUST do to satisfy their shareholders, and losing over $14 million per ship is not going to make those shareholders very happy. 

So what's wrong with truth in pricing.

Cruise companies including the surcharge into the cruise fare, airlines including their luggage price in the advertised fare, or resorts including their resort fees into the advertised rental rate?

By all means keep the stock holders happy.  I'm FINE with that.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by JMorris271

[ldubs]

OK, so this is purposely simplistic.  Let's say a given cruise needs to generate $X to meet expenses + profit target.  

 

Scenario 1 (Gratuities suggested) :  Fare + Suggested Grats = $X

Scenario 2 (Gratuities not allowed): Fare = $X

 

In Scenario 1 grats can be reduced if service is lacking, or they can be removed completely if service is horrible.  I think we can all agree that service is generally pretty darn good and reductions of grats is generally not justified based on service (Yes, I know there are instances of bad things happening but they are almost anecdotal).  In this scenario eligible staff have a tremendous incentive, particularly when guests will tip more than the suggested amount for outstanding service 

 

In Scenario 2, staff will provide good service because it is a job requirement but there is not the same financial incentive.   And if the job has the long hours and hard work which we all seem to agree about here on CC, then they have very little incentive to provide outstanding service.  

 

Put aside what you might feel is the more "correct" approach.  Assume all other things like on-board sales are equal.   If on a cruise that operates like Scenario 1, suggested gratuities should not be withheld simply because it can be done.   

Edited December 5, 2018 by ldubs

[MicCanberra]

I know many on the forums state they remove the tips because as they know better than the cruise line, they reallocate them themselves. Laughable.

[mredandchis]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:56 PM, Velvetwater said:

 

For the most part, North American folk and those that live elsewhere will never agree on this issue. As much as we argue until we are blue in the face that will be so. I am British so you can have a pretty good guess which side I am on.

 

However I have 2 points from my own experience:

 

I have never quite understood where the all the 'If you include grats in the price then cruise costs will go up'. I have cruised and shopped for cruises that include grats (whether it is NCL's deal, Marella, Carnival Oz or P&O Oz ) and when looking at the voyages, age of ship and what you are getting I see hardly a difference in price  to similar voyages and this has been for a few years now. 

 

Secondly, I have seen many folk from the US discuss how service elsewhere is not on par with back home (not in this thread much but you know what I am talking about). Many countries around the globe prefer prompt, unobtrusive service with a smidge of friendliness and prefer not to be disturbed too much whilst eating. We don't particularly need anyone to tell us to have a good day or anything like that or have to use our first name- If you do then it's OK but we don't expect or need it. Then there are language barriers which can obstruct service on occasion.

 

 

Here here. I have been to Great Britain on a number of holidays and the service was always reasonable.  And i would even say friendly as int some areas being a Yank is met with surprise.  The first meal I had in a place I believe was called the Happy Eater I did feel strange not leaving a tip, but then it also felt strange to be paying in pound sterling and trying to sort that out.  But I can imagine the feeling would be very unique coming the other way.  I do think if they cut out the tipping on cruise ships the ticket price would raise a hair but nothing people would notice.   I think the current tipping allows the line to increase profits by a smidge.

 

[mredandchis]

I keep reading about removing grats from the bill on the cruise and yes I know it is an option but then you punish many for the actions of a few or even the one.  I think the service is exceptional on most cruise ships.  But there are Other ways of handling things. A few years ago  I had a steward on one ship that everything started out normal with the typical first meeting.  I asked him if he could bring some ice as my wife was having issues with her knee and he said no problem.  There was no ice, and i spotted him the next day and he apologized and said for sure this evening.  Well no ice again and the bed wasnt made which i had opted for later room cleaning.  So i looked for him the next day and didnt see him.  and I left a note in the room about the ice.  BTW I was heading to the bar and got buckets of ice to take care of the wife,  But at 6pm still no visitation.   So i went and found the housekeeping superviser and she explained that the steward was laid up sick.  I said oh so the problem is a management one?   So 2 hours later the room was made up but again the ice note was moved but no ice.  I mentioned this to a my bar waitress in the Casino.  Her reaction was surprising,   She said come with me I think you need to meet the hotel manager.  And she found him easily and left me with him for me to tell him my little issue.  Within the hour I found 2 buckets of ice in the room and everything looking ship shape.  I found out that suddenly the housekeeper in the casino was now my temp steward. A day or so my orginal steward was back at work and apologized for getting sick and how his pardner was left alone with a multitude of rooms.  I had great service the rest of the cruise.  And both he and the casino housekeeper got thier pockets lined with a little extra.  The point is the Carnival management are very proactive,  customer service is a little overwelmed with issues.  And sometimes these issues can be resolved. In looking at the whole situation and the reactions of the various people it seemed that the housekeeping supervisor made an error and was corrected. The assistant steward was overwhelmed and once she got help the service became great.   It would have been wrong to punish the housekeeping staff for that.  They can only do so much.  

[davecttr]

16 hours ago, ldubs said:

OK, so this is purposely simplistic.  Let's say a given cruise needs to generate $X to meet expenses + profit target.  

 

Scenario 1 (Gratuities suggested) :  Fare + Suggested Grats = $X

Scenario 2 (Gratuities not allowed): Fare = $X

 

In Scenario 1 grats can be reduced if service is lacking, or they can be removed completely if service is horrible.  I think we can all agree that service is generally pretty darn good and reductions of grats is generally not justified based on service (Yes, I know there are instances of bad things happening but they are almost anecdotal).  In this scenario eligible staff have a tremendous incentive, particularly when guests will tip more than the suggested amount for outstanding service 

 

In Scenario 2, staff will provide good service because it is a job requirement but there is not the same financial incentive.   And if the job has the long hours and hard work which we all seem to agree about here on CC, then they have very little incentive to provide outstanding service.  

 

Put aside what you might feel is the more "correct" approach.  Assume all other things like on-board sales are equal.   If on a cruise that operates like Scenario 1, suggested gratuities should not be withheld simply because it can be done.   

I have cruised with Marella cruises here in the UK 20 times and the 'grats' are included in the fare. The crew are always happy and efficient and some offer exceptional service, why? because if you give them a cash tip they can keep it for themselves or they get satisfaction from doing their job really well.

[navybankerteacher]

16 hours ago, JMorris271 said:

So what's wrong with truth in pricing.

Cruise companies including the surcharge into the cruise fare, airlines including their luggage price in the advertised fare, or resorts including their resort fees into the advertised rental rate?

By all means keep the stock holders happy.  I'm FINE with that.

 

 

There’s a difference between “truth in pricing” and “all inclusive pricing”.  As long as it is noted (somewhere) that additional costs MAY be incurred, quoting a price which does not include AVOIDABLE additional costs is still truthful.  So, when an airline does not include luggage costs (which only apply if passengers check bags), or a cruise line does not include gratuities (which can be removed), their advertising, while not all-inclusive, is still truthful.  Non-removable resort fees and non-removable 18% drinks “gratuities” - are different — and should have more clear and obvious disclosure than removable costs - because the advertised cost is simply not available.

[ldubs]

4 hours ago, davecttr said:

I have cruised with Marella cruises here in the UK 20 times and the 'grats' are included in the fare. The crew are always happy and efficient and some offer exceptional service, why? because if you give them a cash tip they can keep it for themselves or they get satisfaction from doing their job really well.

 

No argument and glad to hear it, though it is interesting that even with Grats included in the fare, exceptional service is given in anticipation of additional gratuities.  The point I was trying to make is under the current prevalent system of fare + suggested grats, someone shouldn't pull the grats just because they can.  

 

Anyway, autocorrect is driving me nuts every time I type "grats".  

[davecttr]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

No argument and glad to hear it, though it is interesting that even with Grats included in the fare, exceptional service is given in anticipation of additional gratuities.  The point I was trying to make is under the current prevalent system of fare + suggested grats, someone shouldn't pull the grats just because they can.  

 

Anyway, autocorrect is driving me nuts every time I type "grats".  

Marella also remind passengers that 'tips are included'. it is even written on your cruise card. I think this might be to counter any tendency among some passengers to prove their social superiority by stating 'we always tip as the crew expect it'.

[sail7seas]

On 11/27/2018 at 5:56 PM, Texas Tillie said:

 

Are you aware that in restaurants the waiters have to give part of their tips to the bus boy, the hostess and sometimes people in the kitchen?? I'd call that a communal pot.  

WAY too many tight  wads     stiffed the crew and this way, 'most' people  are properly   tipping, as we  all should, IMO       So many  empty seats in  the bars and dining room last night.       ( in  the days when tipping was not on shipboard azccounts.) They would skip dinner r ather than tip.    :eek:     I do not like that  some lines still  permit people to remove hotel service charge from their accounts.

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by sail7seas

[MicCanberra]

Had some interesting discussions with some other cruisers from around the world today and I think the one thing that is evident is that people will do what they want while they are allowed within the system being imposed.

Mandatory gratuities or service charge means everyone has to tip,  and only a very few who complain due to bad or lack of service can have them lowered.

Voluntary tips where people can do whatever they want, leave them remove them and pay individuals how they want or remove them and pocket the money.

Both systems seem to work or the cruise lines would change it to the alternative.

 

[navybankerteacher]

On something of a tangent:  I wonder if there is any (presumably) reliable data available showing percentage of cruise passengers who actually do remove gratuities when possible - possibly broken down by cruise line. 

[PTMary]

9 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Had some interesting discussions with some other cruisers from around the world today and I think the one thing that is evident is that people will do what they want while they are allowed within the system being imposed.

Mandatory gratuities or service charge means everyone has to tip,  and only a very few who complain due to bad or lack of service can have them lowered.

Voluntary tips where people can do whatever they want, leave them remove them and pay individuals how they want or remove them and pocket the money.

Both systems seem to work or the cruise lines would change it to the alternative.

 

 

Removing tips because they can is selfish and not very humanitarian. It is no different than if a person were driving on a street with large pockets of water at the curb and when approaching such a pocket of water, seeing that a pedestrian is walking near that pocket and might get splashed, instead of avoiding the pocket for the benefit of the pedestrian, the driver steers towards the pocket to make certain the pedestrian gets splashed for the driver's amusement. It is a deliberate act to benefit himself at the expense of the other person. 

 

Just because you can doesn't make it right. 

 

And both systems DO NOT work in every situation. Otherwise, the cruise lines would not be forced to include the grats in the base fare in areas where a larger number of selfish people are known to remove those grats just because "they will do what they want". Several cruise lines will change the system to the alternative only in areas where the crew will suffer due to that higher number of selfish people removing the grats. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by PTMary

[JMorris271]

On 12/6/2018 at 11:26 AM, navybankerteacher said:

 

There’s a difference between “truth in pricing” and “all inclusive pricing”.  As long as it is noted (somewhere) that additional costs MAY be incurred, quoting a price which does not include AVOIDABLE additional costs is still truthful.  So, when an airline does not include luggage costs (which only apply if passengers check bags), or a cruise line does not include gratuities (which can be removed), their advertising, while not all-inclusive, is still truthful.  Non-removable resort fees and non-removable 18% drinks “gratuities” - are different — and should have more clear and obvious disclosure than removable costs - because the advertised cost is simply not available.

You can make a simple comment into a thesis .

I am saying instead of those airlines that do,  adding their luggage fee in addition to the ticket price plus the charge for additional luggage up to its' set allowance, just to include that luggage charge in the ticket with additional charges for additional  luggage over the first one.

As it is, some travelers over stuff  their carry on to avoid the luggage charge 

Edited December 8, 2018 by JMorris271

[MicCanberra]

4 hours ago, PTMary said:

 

Removing tips because they can is selfish and not very humanitarian. It is no different than if a person were driving on a street with large pockets of water at the curb and when approaching such a pocket of water, seeing that a pedestrian is walking near that pocket and might get splashed, instead of avoiding the pocket for the benefit of the pedestrian, the driver steers towards the pocket to make certain the pedestrian gets splashed for the driver's amusement. It is a deliberate act to benefit himself at the expense of the other person. 

 

Just because you can doesn't make it right. 

 

And both systems DO NOT work in every situation. Otherwise, the cruise lines would not be forced to include the grats in the base fare in areas where a larger number of selfish people are known to remove those grats just because "they will do what they want". Several cruise lines will change the system to the alternative only in areas where the crew will suffer due to that higher number of selfish people removing the grats. 

You may be right in regard to someone's motivation to remove tips, but to say that both systems do not work is folly as they do and have done so for many years with no detriment to company profits, staff satisfaction and cruise fares.

 

[sloopsailor]

4 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

You may be right in regard to someone's motivation to remove tips, but to say that both systems do not work is folly as they do and have done so for many years with no detriment to company profits, staff satisfaction and cruise fares.

 

 

She said "do not work in every situation". Not hard to understand that reality.

 

Reading what is actually written before responding to a post is always good idea. 

[MicCanberra]

3 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

She said "do not work in every situation". Not hard to understand that reality.

 

Reading what is actually written before responding to a post is always good idea. 

If they both work, why would you doubt they would only work in some situations.

And I agree, about reading a post before posting a response is sound advice but understanding it is even better.

BTW, how do you know it was a she?

[sloopsailor]

2 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

BTW, how do you know it was a she?

 

The posting name is PTMary. I rather doubt it's a guy with that name. Just like I will venture a guess that you are a he with the avatar you use.  😉

Edited December 9, 2018 by sloopsailor

[MicCanberra]

13 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

 

The posting name is PTMary. I rather doubt it's a guy with that name. Just like I will venture a guess that you are a he with the avatar you use.  😉

Could be Mr Mary as in Peter Terence Mary, with no pic, how would we know. As for my Avatar, that is a pic of someone very dear to my heart, it is my wife's husband.

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Could be Mr Mary as in Peter Terence Mary, with no pic, how would we know. As for my Avatar, that is a pic of someone very dear to my heart, it is my wife's husband.

 

Please clarify relationship: are you in a monogamous union?

[MicCanberra]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

Please clarify relationship: are you in a monogamous union?

Yes, and the avatar is of me, albeit a few years ago now.

[SRF]

On 12/3/2018 at 11:00 PM, MicCanberra said:

If it is clearly to do with the level of service, why have fixed amounts such as 18% for a drink when cracking a beer is nothing like make a cocktail. 

 

A fixed percentage is not a fixed amount.

 

You get a lesser amount for cracking a beer, because a beer is cheaper.  A mixed drink take more effort, costs more, and the tip/service charge is higher.  

[SRF]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:51 AM, JMorris271 said:

You can make a simple comment into a thesis .

I am saying instead of those airlines that do,  adding their luggage fee in addition to the ticket price plus the charge for additional luggage up to its' set allowance, just to include that luggage charge in the ticket with additional charges for additional  luggage over the first one.

As it is, some travelers over stuff  their carry on to avoid the luggage charge 

 

 

Funny thing is, the main US carrier with no luggage fees, does not allow its fare to be listed on any fare comparison site.  Think about it.

 

Oh, and they have their own personal US Law, because, in the past they advertised fares without including any airport fees or taxes.  Which every other airline was including in their advertised fares.

 

Just because people THINK something is low cost, does not mean it really is.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, SRF said:

 

A fixed percentage is not a fixed amount.

 

You get a lesser amount for cracking a beer, because a beer is cheaper.  A mixed drink take more effort, costs more, and the tip/service charge is higher.  

 

When applied as a tip for a drink, the fixed percentage IS a fixed amount.  A non-fixed amount around be one decided by the recipient of the service, not pre-determined by the list price of the item being served.