RocketMan275 Posted November 30, 2018 #76 Share Posted November 30, 2018 8 hours ago, SPacificbound said: Our feeling on cruising and tipping, since we understand the system. If we cannot afford to leave the tip on for the crew who works so hard, then we can no longer afford to cruise. It isn't that some cannot afford to tip. Some want to avoid the tip so they have more to spend on other things, ie, drinks, excursions, etc. I'm reminded of a thread a few months ago about an increase in the gratuities. It amount to less than a dollar a day. I pointed out that this was less than the cost of two beers on a seven day cruise. Other commented that they didn't want to give up the two beers, that the cruise line should pay the costs. Of course, that is the bottom line. The non-tippers believe that the cruise line should pay an 'adequate wage' so they, the passengers, won't have to compensate the crew. This is absurd since either way the passengers pay the crew. We're only debating the form taken by the compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted November 30, 2018 #77 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Texas Tillie said: Something that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread, certain countries have tax laws (and I believe the Philippines is one and we all know how many crew members come from there) that tax the citizen on salary but not on tips. A Philippino would be required to be paid more than their tip rate to break even after taxes if they were paid all in salary. This, alone, is justification for the tipping system: it puts more money in the pockets of the crew. Posters who who complain about the system and claim that they would prefer just having the fare increased are just blowing smoke - all they need to do is leave the autotips in place. But what they want to do is impose their way of doing things upon others: simple arrogance. If you do not like the way a company operates, do not do business with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K32682 Posted November 30, 2018 #78 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said: It isn't that some cannot afford to tip. Some want to avoid the tip so they have more to spend on other things, ie, drinks, excursions, etc. I'm reminded of a thread a few months ago about an increase in the gratuities. It amount to less than a dollar a day. I pointed out that this was less than the cost of two beers on a seven day cruise. Other commented that they didn't want to give up the two beers, that the cruise line should pay the costs. Anyone who would defend not tipping because they wanted to drink and do more and would rather spend the money on themselves is a selfish piece of *****. It may be possible that the hard-working waiter from the Philippines is making more money than the passengers but I somewhat doubt it. Edited November 30, 2018 by K32682 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted November 30, 2018 #79 Share Posted November 30, 2018 27 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said: This, alone, is justification for the tipping system: it puts more money in the pockets of the crew. Posters who who complain about the system and claim that they would prefer just having the fare increased are just blowing smoke - all they need to do is leave the autotips in place. But what they want to do is impose their way of doing things upon others: simple arrogance. If you do not like the way a company operates, do not do business with them. I wonder what they do when they go out to eat. Do they only eat in establishments where tipping isn't the norm or do they not tip when eating in a sit down restaurant? I know what my guess is (which could of course be wrong in many cases). I've worked for tips and I've worked aboard ships (fortunately not both at the same time) so I have an empathy for the crew. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted November 30, 2018 #80 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Most times, people will do what they think is best for them, in some cases you can change their mind set by providing a differing point of view but most times you may as well hold your breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taglovestocruise Posted November 30, 2018 #81 Share Posted November 30, 2018 16 hours ago, navybankerteacher said: YOUR WISH IS GRANTED: they DO “add a ... service charge and be done with it.” So what is your beef? Not only do they automatically add the charge which you claim to wish they would add; they give you the option of reducing/removing it — presumably for good reason, such as poor service, and not just because you are cheap. Perhaps people who claim to not like the way it is done do not like to have to resist the temptation to remove it. It is hard to see any other reason for not liking it We pay the daily gratuities each cruise without ever thinking of removing them. My BEEF as you put it is that each year the amount of daily gratuities increases, not because the crew gets more but because the cruise line anticipates how many will opt out and that amount will be carried over to those that do pay. We just prepaid our gratuities for a 18 night transpacific and it was over $500.00 for the two of us. The crew works hard and should not be short changed by the cheepos . So my WISH will not be granted until service charges/gratuities are included in the cruise price and no opt out is available. happy cruising to you and yours. I still remember you from the Mariner of the Seas Chile to LA cruise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekathy Posted November 30, 2018 #82 Share Posted November 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, taglovestocruise said: We pay the daily gratuities each cruise without ever thinking of removing them. My BEEF as you put it is that each year the amount of daily gratuities increases, not because the crew gets more but because the cruise line anticipates how many will opt out and that amount will be carried over to those that do pay. We just prepaid our gratuities for a 18 night transpacific and it was over $500.00 for the two of us. The crew works hard and should not be short changed by the cheepos . So my WISH will not be granted until service charges/gratuities are included in the cruise price and no opt out is available. happy cruising to you and yours. I still remember you from the Mariner of the Seas Chile to LA cruise. Not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglanglois Posted November 30, 2018 #83 Share Posted November 30, 2018 It's a fair point that if gratuities are being used to supplement base income, rather than as a reward for exceptional service, they should not be optional. Everyone deserves a fair wage for doing their job, and that basic wage should not be at the whim of customers, who are frankly capricious beasts at best. If your food reaches you hot and on time, that deserves a basic wage, even if you feel the server didn't sufficiently fawn over you. That means leaving 'tips' in place for all but actively bad service. If servers were being paid a reasonable basic wage before the 'mandatory but not really' gratuities charge, then it would be much more reasonable to opt out if you thought the service didn't surpass basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted November 30, 2018 #84 Share Posted November 30, 2018 For most Australian cruises with the main lines, tips are included in the fare along with the taxes, fees and port charges. The price we see is the price we pay. The tips cannot be removed. For the other lines that do not incorporate this, there is still the queues of people complaining about how they shouldn't have to pay the tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taglovestocruise Posted November 30, 2018 #85 Share Posted November 30, 2018 On second thought NBT I think we were on the Mariner TA from Civitavecchia . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted December 1, 2018 #86 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Yes - that would have been 2012 Civita Vecchio to Galveston. Still, what possible difference can it make to you if the lines annually increase the daily gratuities following their current approach, or roll them into the basic fare — AND THEN annually increase that enhanced basic fare? Your out of pocket would be the same —- but (AND HERE IS AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT) the hard-working crew, many of whom come from countries where salary is taxed and gratuities are not taxed, WOULD GET TO KEEP LESS OF THEIR INCOME, If there is no difference in your cost, but a benefit to to the ultimate recipients, I cannot recognize ANY valid rationale for your objection to the system the lines employ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted December 1, 2018 #87 Share Posted December 1, 2018 4 hours ago, douglanglois said: It's a fair point that if gratuities are being used to supplement base income, rather than as a reward for exceptional service, they should not be optional. Everyone deserves a fair wage for doing their job, and that basic wage should not be at the whim of customers, who are frankly capricious beasts at best. If your food reaches you hot and on time, that deserves a basic wage, even if you feel the server didn't sufficiently fawn over you. That means leaving 'tips' in place for all but actively bad service. If servers were being paid a reasonable basic wage before the 'mandatory but not really' gratuities charge, then it would be much more reasonable to opt out if you thought the service didn't surpass basic. You fail to grasp the point that for the gratuities to be treated as gratuities (and therefore not taxable income) they MUST be subject to being removed. If they are built into the fare, they would not be voluntary - and therefore not gratuities —- which, by definition, are voluntary - and therefor necessarily subject to removal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted December 1, 2018 #88 Share Posted December 1, 2018 NCL gets by with having a service charge rather than gratuities and they seem to cope okay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 1, 2018 #89 Share Posted December 1, 2018 The only difference with NCL is what they call it. They are still assessed daily and are subject to adjustment. Not sure what, if any, difference this makes for the crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted December 1, 2018 #90 Share Posted December 1, 2018 It is not possible to have them adjusted on board though, you need to apply to head office and provide reasons why you want it adjusted or dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzieanna Posted December 1, 2018 #91 Share Posted December 1, 2018 So basically it’s a tax avoidance scheme! Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted December 1, 2018 #92 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Pretty much, but there is a little more to it, but it all has to do with money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 1, 2018 #93 Share Posted December 1, 2018 3 hours ago, MicCanberra said: It is not possible to have them adjusted on board though, you need to apply to head office and provide reasons why you want it adjusted or dropped. It's still the same animal with different colored fur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare sparks1093 Posted December 1, 2018 #94 Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, MicCanberra said: Pretty much, but there is a little more to it, but it all has to do with money. It's business so yeah, money is the yard stick (or should I say meter stick😁). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted December 1, 2018 #95 Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, sparks1093 said: It's business so yeah, money is the yard stick (or should I say meter stick😁). Of course "it's money"! Money is the reason people work on cruise ships, and money is what cheapskates who ride on cruise ships want to keep for themselves. The service charges on NCL are still removable , which qualifies them as voluntary tips; it is just that NCL did not want it to be too easy for their passengers to remove them, so they make them do it in writing, after the cruise is over. Does this say something about what NCL thinks about the generosity of their passengers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted December 1, 2018 #96 Share Posted December 1, 2018 5 hours ago, Suzieanna said: So basically it’s a tax avoidance scheme! Haha! Yes - and every intelligent person will take LEGITIMATE steps to reduce the amount they pay in taxes. Do you know anyone who knowingly does not claim a standard deduction, or itemize their legitimate deductions, when preparing their tax returns? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzieanna Posted December 1, 2018 #97 Share Posted December 1, 2018 Quite agree. Avoidance is not Evasion. I live on an island that is powered by tax avoidance schemes! I think that’s why I found it funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRF Posted December 1, 2018 #98 Share Posted December 1, 2018 On 11/29/2018 at 7:44 PM, sparks1093 said: I have no trouble not leaving a tip if that is the culture. Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted December 1, 2018 #99 Share Posted December 1, 2018 4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said: Of course "it's money"! Money is the reason people work on cruise ships, and money is what cheapskates who ride on cruise ships want to keep for themselves. The service charges on NCL are still removable , which qualifies them as voluntary tips; it is just that NCL did not want it to be too easy for their passengers to remove them, so they make them do it in writing, after the cruise is over. Does this say something about what NCL thinks about the generosity of their passengers? Yes, making it harder does have an effect, many people would not be bothered to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MicCanberra Posted December 1, 2018 #100 Share Posted December 1, 2018 26 minutes ago, SRF said: Same here. And me also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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