Passport Confusion

[waterbug123]

2 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Alas, even now that we are empty nesters spontaneous travel is not in our cards (other than maybe a quick overnight trip to a nearby city for a date night) so not having a passport isn't a concern. I also have a passport issuing agency 18 miles from my house, so if necessary could have a passport very quickly if I actually needed it. Just like anything else regarding this issue everyone has to make the decision that works best for themselves and not worry about what other people do.

 

For someone who supposedly doesn't worry about what other people do, you spend an awful lot of time explaining why you don't think people don't need to get a passport.  🙂

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, johnjen said:

No, it's a good idea to have passports over excursions. Still trying to understand the reasons why people still leave the country without a passport but I think you have nailed one of the ideas down. While you can legally leave the country without a passport on a closed loop, it is not recommended.

A lot depends on their personal situation. I can leave the country as easily as taking a left hand turn out of my driveway and then the first left and driving 8 miles. If that is the only way that I'll ever leave the country why would I spend the money on a passport if a less expensive alternative is available? I know many people in my community that are in that very position and they all opt for the less expensive alternative. If a family is only going to travel on closed loop cruises once a year or every other year and it's the only type of travel they can do the same thing applies. Yes, there is a small risk if something happens but the only risk is delay in getting home and as long as they are comfortable with that premise then it's a legitimate choice for them to make. 

[sparks1093]

9 minutes ago, waterbug123 said:

 

For someone who supposedly doesn't worry about what other people do, you spend an awful lot of time explaining why you don't think people don't need to get a passport.  🙂

LOL. When someone asks if they can travel without a passport I tell them what the rules are and let them make up their own mind. Then there are all kinds of little side-bar conversations that come up within the thread and I respond to those as I see fit. In our present side-bar I have explained what I would do and why I would do it regarding passport renewal. People can take that for whatever they want to and however they want to. If my way happens to work for them then great, if not well, that's great too. As I have said numerous times travel documentation isn't a one sized fits all proposition.

Edited January 16, 2019 by sparks1093

[SRF]

18 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Regulations are prepared at the direction of political appointees. Further, lobbyists do spend time "educating" government employees at every opportunity. And, if I understand correctly, part of the process of preparing regulations consists of formal consultation with stakeholder groups. In other words, the cruise lines were able to and did join other transborder businesses in encouraging more business friendly border regulations. The fact that there is a specific exception for closed loop cruises confirms this.

 

 

Sort of.  Every proposed regulation change gets published in the Federal Register.  And there is a comment period, where ANYONE that wants to, may comment.  Depending on circumstances, they may also hold open hearings, where ANYONE can attend and speak on the proposed regulations.

 

All comments made, either written or in testimony, have to be addressed in the follow on, before the final rule.  And in some cases, if the changes are large, there may be a second comment period.

 

Once the final rule is published, there are avenues to protest the regulations, but typically it requires court involvement.

 

I have been in and around Federal Regulations and the rule making process for a LONG time.  And have commented, and had changes made based on those comments, in several rules.

[Iamcruzin]

On 1/15/2019 at 8:56 AM, sparks1093 said:

The issue isn't a security issue on the ship, it's someone entering the country who shouldn't. It doesn't seem likely that someone will sneak into the country just to sneak out of the country for a vacation in order to sneak back into the country again 7 days later. (And someone who has a REAL ID compliant license would still need to provide proof of citizenship in order to board a closed loop cruise, a state issued birth certificate, naturalization certificate or Consular Report of Birth Abroad.)

I realize that Real ID is not a passport. However if I’m flying to Florida from New York I’m not leaving the country but I still need a special form of ID. Even with this there is no garuntee that I won’t High jack a plane. I would think that with all this extra certification of ID that eventually it going to effect anyone coming in of out of the country.

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Iamcruzin said:

I realize that Real ID is not a passport. However if I’m flying to Florida from New York I’m not leaving the country but I still need a special form of ID. Even with this there is no garuntee that I won’t High jack a plane. I would think that with all this extra certification of ID that eventually it going to effect anyone coming in of out of the country.

None of this changes DHS's assessment of the national security risk posed by a US citizen on a closed loop cruise and that assessment would need to change before any changes would be made to the regulations. Requiring someone to have a passport wouldn't prevent them from doing something illegal.

[Iamcruzin]

14 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

None of this changes DHS's assessment of the national security risk posed by a US citizen on a closed loop cruise and that assessment would need to change before any changes would be made to the regulations. Requiring someone to have a passport wouldn't prevent them from doing something illegal.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is the fact that they are taking extra precautions for domestic flights that it only seems logical that  a passport will be required entering the country even with all of the evidence that you point out about cruising. Non US citizens have passports already. We as a nation never needed one. I think that Real ID or Enhanced license is the first step. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Iamcruzin

[sparks1093]

8 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

I guess what I'm trying to point out is the fact that they are taking extra precautions for domestic flights that it only seems logical that  a passport will be required entering the country even with all of the evidence that you point out about cruising. Non US citizens have passports already. We as a nation never needed one. I think that Real ID or Enhanced license is the first step. 

I don't see it that way. REAL ID has two main goals (as I understand it but I haven't done extensive reading on the topic)- 1) to increase the security of documents issued by the states regarding identity and 2) to ensure those who are being issued IDs have the legal right to be here. And not having a REAL ID compliant ID only means that you need another form of acceptable ID in order to enter property under Federal jurisdiction, such as a Federal building or an airport. It's not just about domestic flights although that is the piece that would affect most US citizens. The WHTI regulations addressed the security concerns presented by travelers coming from outside the country, REAL ID addresses those inside the country. So WHTI was actually the first step.

[MNfamilycruiser]

9 hours ago, Crusin6 said:

Step 7 in the above link alone will convince anyone that it’s much easier for both parents to go....

 

hence my advice still is to is to bring both parents if a child is under 16

 

 

 

 

I didn't say one way was easier than the other, only that is not true that both parents must appear in person.  For us, it was far easier for my husband to fill out the form and have it notarized.   Since his firm has notaries on staff, it was a 10 minute process instead of taking off work for 1-2 hours. 

This provision also covers other instances in which only one parent is available to appear in person.

[Desert Cruizers]

Brillohead, it was from my experience i really wanted to share with others on CC who are asking about Insurance. to let them know what I experienced in hopes it will aid them. Everything worked out beautiful financially speaking and they covered all the bills including the check to cover the cost on board to the CC. The crazy part, the Ambulance cost to go 12 minutes from Pier to Hospital in Canada was $240, the cost to pick up husband at home airport to go 2 miles to hospital, was $1700 with mileage. 

[Charles4515]

I've read that before and have serious doubts about it. Border communities "lobbied" for exceptions and the exceptions were severely limited because of the risk and because of the limited amount of time available at a border crossing to process someone (and of course the regulations were written by faceless government employees, so "lobby" must be used in a limited sense since there was no face to face interaction as there would be with a Congressperson). I believe that if the DHS had reached a different conclusion about the national security risk of US citizens on closed loop cruises then the exception wouldn't exist.

The cruise lines definitely lobbied for not requiring passports for closed loop cruises. That is the reason closed loop cruises don’t require them.


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[Charles4515]

Oh, so this is the scenario where you will be trapped in another country forever.  Pleeeease.....
 
Like I said in another post, I've been on 14 cruises from groups from 3 to 30 and never once did anyone need a passport to get home.
 
Like others have said weigh the risk to your comfort level.

If you don’t have a passport you will need an emergency passport. You will be able to get one and get home but it will involve a lot more stress and involve more time than if you have a passport.


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[johnjen]

On 1/16/2019 at 7:57 AM, sparks1093 said:

A lot depends on their personal situation. I can leave the country as easily as taking a left hand turn out of my driveway and then the first left and driving 8 miles. If that is the only way that I'll ever leave the country why would I spend the money on a passport if a less expensive alternative is available? I know many people in my community that are in that very position and they all opt for the less expensive alternative. If a family is only going to travel on closed loop cruises once a year or every other year and it's the only type of travel they can do the same thing applies. Yes, there is a small risk if something happens but the only risk is delay in getting home and as long as they are comfortable with that premise then it's a legitimate choice for them to make. 

Leaving the country at your discretion without a passport is up to you, but it is not recommended.

[sparks1093]

28 minutes ago, johnjen said:

Leaving the country at your discretion without a passport is up to you, but it is not recommended.

You said you were trying to understand why someone would leave the country without a passport and I tried to explain it, I guess it was a rhetorical statement. I take recommendations for what they are and I do what works best for me.

[johnjen]

On 1/17/2019 at 1:29 PM, sparks1093 said:

You said you were trying to understand why someone would leave the country without a passport and I tried to explain it, I guess it was a rhetorical statement. I take recommendations for what they are and I do what works best for me.

Yeah, I think I was oversighting the fact we prefer overseas cruising over the Caribbean, when you do this, you kind of "lose sight" that there's cruisers out there that can ONLY do that region and/or closed loop travel (cost, budget). We've had passports long as I can remember but I'd still not try to seek or perp excuses to leave the country without a proper passport to make it look as if everything is ok that way. Nowadays, i wouldn't even travel to Canada or Mexico without one. You see, THAT works best for us.

Edited January 20, 2019 by johnjen

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, johnjen said:

Yeah, I think I was oversighting the fact we prefer overseas cruising over the Caribbean, when you do this, you kind of "lose sight" that there's cruisers out there that can ONLY do that region and/or closed loop travel (cost, budget). We've had passports long as I can remember but I'd still not try to seek or perp excuses to leave the country without a proper passport to make it look as if everything is ok that way. Nowadays, i wouldn't even travel to Canada or Mexico without one. You see, THAT works best for us.

And at the end of the day that's all that matters, that each traveler does what works best for them. Unless we're flying out of Montreal our trips to Canada are without our passports which we choose to leave in the safe deposit box.