New Ice Class in force 1st Jan. 2018

[Bella0714]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:38 PM, Alphen said:

For us, still by far the best cruise we ever did, still regular look at our video 🙂

 

This discussion of how far south Westerdam will go has definitely caught my attention. On HAL.com, the map for  early 2020 Zaandam is the same as late 2020 Westerdam. I looked at the detailed itinerary description for both, and both mention going as far south as Paradise Harbor, but there’s no mention of Lemaire Channel. Do you recall if Lemaire was mentioned in the itinerary description when you sailed? 

 

[knittinggirl]

Don't remember which thread I put this on, but I was wondering why they don't just build Polar Class 6 into the latest ship build.  I believe they just cut metal for a new ship.

 

What percentage does it raise the cost to upgrade it to Polar Class 6?

[Hlitner]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 5:20 AM, ski ww said:

That is the only continent we have not visited, has been on our bucket list. Looks like we may not make it. Thanks for posting. 

You co

 

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 8:29 PM, knittinggirl said:

I contacted HAL.com, and they only told me what ships were scheduled to sail Antarctica.  I obviously worded my question wrong.

 

I'm very disappointed that Greenland is going to be off limits.  Does this mean that Voyage of the Vikings going to have to drop Greenland Ports and Prince Christian Sund soon?

 

Westerdam wasn't even mentioned in early posts of this thread, so I'm confused.  Is the Westerdam a newly converted Polar Class 6?

I do not think that any HAL vessel can reasonably be converted to the Polar Class 6 specs.  You will likely see a very specialized market with only small expedition-type vessels going into Antarctic waters.   And unlike the so-called Antarctic cruises of HAL and other lines which never gave passengers an opportunity to go ashore, the expedition type vessels will likely all use zodiacs to allow shore excursions.

 

Hank

[Tampa Girl]

6 hours ago, Bella0714 said:

This discussion of how far south Westerdam will go has definitely caught my attention. On HAL.com, the map for  early 2020 Zaandam is the same as late 2020 Westerdam. I looked at the detailed itinerary description for both, and both mention going as far south as Paradise Harbor, but there’s no mention of Lemaire Channel. Do you recall if Lemaire was mentioned in the itinerary description when you sailed? 

 

 

I don't think that I would depend on the Westerdam going further into Antarctica waters than the Zaandam is scheduled to do during this season.  The present itinerary calls for four days in those waters.

 

Also, I wouldn't depend on the Westerdam even going to Antarctica next year.  HAL just came out with a flyer saying that 2020 "may" be the last year.

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, knittinggirl said:

Don't remember which thread I put this on, but I was wondering why they don't just build Polar Class 6 into the latest ship build.  I believe they just cut metal for a new ship.

 

What percentage does it raise the cost to upgrade it to Polar Class 6?

Just a quick look at the class societies' structural and machinery requirements handbook, and acknowledging that much of this is design calculation based on the individual ship design, I would say 20% as a minimum figure.  All of the steel below the waterline, and the entire bow area (as far back as the bow curves in towards the center) is required to be at least one class better steel, and thicker steel, raising the cost, there is more and thicker framing in the bow and stern, raising the cost, the machinery must be designed to work in cold weather, the sea chests (where sea water cooling is brought into the ship) needs to be designed to separate ice from water, you have to have means (steam piping) to keep the ballast tanks from freezing, the engine room ventilation must be heated, and even the propellers need to be specially designed.  Even for a smaller ship costing three quarters of a billion dollars, that amounts to $150 million up front, added to the additional inspection costs every year to maintain the polar class rating.

[Bella0714]

14 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

I don't think that I would depend on the Westerdam going further into Antarctica waters than the Zaandam is scheduled to do during this season.  The present itinerary calls for four days in those waters.

 

Also, I wouldn't depend on the Westerdam even going to Antarctica next year.  HAL just came out with a flyer saying that 2020 "may" be the last year.

Thanks, Tampa Girl. Holland America is advertising and booking the Nov. 2020-January 2021 Westerdam Antarctica cruises on its website. Is HAL warning that those cruises might be canceled? Maybe they meant the last year for Zaandam.

 

Regarding how far south Westerdam and Zaandam will go, I guess I didn't make myself clear. Alphen posted a map which showed their cruise a few years ago going as far south as the Lemaire Channel, and I was wondering if that was something HAL mentioned in the itinerary at the time because neither the Westerdam nor Zaandam 2020-21 itineraries mention Lemaire Channel. But I know that Lemaire is very ice-dependent, so maybe they just don't want to mention it.

[knittinggirl]

Why are the powers that be making the Polar Class more stringent?  Is there more ice to navigate?    If it's so dangerous, why not forbid the Westerdam, Zaandam and Prinsendam to cross the 60 degree NOW, not in two years?

Edited March 29, 2019 by knittinggirl

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, knittinggirl said:

Why are the powers that be making the Polar Class more stringent?  Is there more ice to navigate?    If it's so dangerous, why not forbid the Westerdam, Zaandam and Prinsendam to cross the 60 degree NOW, not in two years?

All maritime regulations allow for some grandfathering.  The class societies have obtained more data from ships already operating in polar regions, and from ships starting to ply polar waters, like the Crystal cruise ships, and are learning more and more about how ships behave in polar waters, and are concerned that ships carrying thousands of passengers in areas where rescue may be days away, may not be protected to the best possible extent based on all  available knowledge.  As more and more ships sail in polar waters they hope not to have more and more incidents and accidents, especially in environmentally fragile areas.

[Tampa Girl]

4 hours ago, Bella0714 said:

Thanks, Tampa Girl. Holland America is advertising and booking the Nov. 2020-January 2021 Westerdam Antarctica cruises on its website. Is HAL warning that those cruises might be canceled? Maybe they meant the last year for Zaandam.

 

Regarding how far south Westerdam and Zaandam will go, I guess I didn't make myself clear. Alphen posted a map which showed their cruise a few years ago going as far south as the Lemaire Channel, and I was wondering if that was something HAL mentioned in the itinerary at the time because neither the Westerdam nor Zaandam 2020-21 itineraries mention Lemaire Channel. But I know that Lemaire is very ice-dependent, so maybe they just don't want to mention it.

 

I think that your surmise about the Lemaire being ice-dependent is why it is not mentioned.  From what little I know of Antarctic, never having been there, it would be impossible to advertise the Lemaire when the likelihood of going through the Channel is uncertain.  I guess we won't know until we are on the ship!

 

As to the flyer, I really don't know whether it pertains to all ships or just the Zaandam.  It was sent to me by another poster who didn't identify the source.  However, the flyer did not specify the Zaandam.  It merely said "it may be the last voyage to Antarctica."  I was sort of surprised because I knew that the Westerdam is scheduled for '20-21".  Talk about confusion!  If you find out, let us know.  We booked the Zaandam to be on the safe side.

[Tampa Girl]

4 hours ago, knittinggirl said:

Why are the powers that be making the Polar Class more stringent?  Is there more ice to navigate?    If it's so dangerous, why not forbid the Westerdam, Zaandam and Prinsendam to cross the 60 degree NOW, not in two years?

 

See Post. 28.

[Bella0714]

28 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

I think that your surmise about the Lemaire being ice-dependent is why it is not mentioned.  From what little I know of Antarctic, never having been there, it would be impossible to advertise the Lemaire when the likelihood of going through the Channel is uncertain.  I guess we won't know until we are on the ship!

 

As to the flyer, I really don't know whether it pertains to all ships or just the Zaandam.  It was sent to me by another poster who didn't identify the source.  However, the flyer did not specify the Zaandam.  It merely said "it may be the last voyage to Antarctica."  I was sort of surprised because I knew that the Westerdam is scheduled for '20-21".  Talk about confusion!  If you find out, let us know.  We booked the Zaandam to be on the safe side.

I'm thinking HAL must be serious about the November 27, 2020 cruise. The ship is scheduled to cross through the path of the total solar eclipse on December 14, and several eclipse chaser companies are selling packages on that cruise.

 

I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but there are options that don't cost $1,000 a day. Hurtigruten has cruises that spend six days around the peninsula and do landings, and I've been them for as little as $4,900 a person. The one I've had my eye on for a while spends 10 days around the peninsula with landings and is $6898 if you book through the .no website. Alas, we can't do this one because my wife will not leave the family during Christmas. But I am concerned that as options for cruising to Antarctica decrease, prices will rise.

[AncientWanderer]

13 hours ago, Bella0714 said:

This discussion of how far south Westerdam will go has definitely caught my attention. On HAL.com, the map for  early 2020 Zaandam is the same as late 2020 Westerdam. I looked at the detailed itinerary description for both, and both mention going as far south as Paradise Harbor, but there’s no mention of Lemaire Channel. Do you recall if Lemaire was mentioned in the itinerary description when you sailed? 

 

 

 

Bumping in the hopes that Alphen will see this question which was directed to him/her and maybe respond.  

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by AncientWanderer

[knittinggirl]

The November 27, 2020 Westerdam has four days of "Antarctic Experience," so I guess they pick their route depending on weather conditions.  Maybe those big chunks of ice breaking off Antarctica has changed the way they used to plan this cruise.

Edited March 30, 2019 by knittinggirl

[Alphen]

On 3/29/2019 at 9:43 AM, Bella0714 said:

This discussion of how far south Westerdam will go has definitely caught my attention. On HAL.com, the map for  early 2020 Zaandam is the same as late 2020 Westerdam. I looked at the detailed itinerary description for both, and both mention going as far south as Paradise Harbor, but there’s no mention of Lemaire Channel. Do you recall if Lemaire was mentioned in the itinerary description when you sailed? 

 

Antarctica is not easy to plan ahead, circumstances differ by the minute. This is why, with the aid of an experienced Ice Pilot from the US coastguard, split decisions are made based on the weather and ice conditions at that time, to travel the route. As I understand, no cruise is the same, if I remember correctly, we were unable to go into the Lemaire Channel, because of the wind and powder snow, making it impossible to navigate there.

[kwb101]

We are onboard Maasdam. When we returned from dinner this evening, the When & Where on our bed has this under Future Cruises:

 

"Amazing Antarctica

Join us for what may be one of our last voyages to Antarctica. <descriptive text about 22 day trips removed> We have secured further permits for slings in December 2019/2020 or January 2020/2021. Reserve your spot etc,.etc."

 

Will this also apply to any itineraries that include Svalbard and possibly Greenland and Iceland in the north? 

[chengkp75]

Svalbard and Greenland, yes.  Iceland, no, because of the Gulf Stream.

[kwb101]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Svalbard and Greenland, yes.  Iceland, no, because of the Gulf Stream.

Thanks! I am grateful for small things. 

[SeaDog-46]

Getting information on what ships have the Polar Code rating is not easy.  Many still have one of the older Ice codes.

The only vessel that converted to the new code is Silver Cloud when she had an extensive refurbishment in 2017 costing US$14 million.

Polar Class 6 that most of the new expedition ships will have only enables them to operate in Medium 1st year ice in summer / autumn.

Hanseatic Nature is one of the first of the new expedition ships & was handed over recently.

Sunstone's first vessel was launched recently in China as Greg Mortimer is PC5 for long term charter.

See the IMO information sheet on the Polar Code below. 

[kwb101]

5 minutes ago, SeaDog-46 said:

Getting information on what ships have the Polar Code rating is not easy.  Many still have one of the older Ice codes. <snip>

Thanks for the detail,  it's very useful.

We've decided to go both south and north next year, just to make sure we can. Sometimes you have to strike while the iron is hot. 

[Ken the cruiser]

We’re hoping HAL or one of the other mass market cruise lines (X or Princess) does one last Antarctica cruise in Nov/Dec 2021 when a full solar eclipse is scheduled to appear in Antarctica Dec 4, 2021. Because once Jan 1, 2022 gets here, the prices are going to get crazy. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Ken the cruiser

[kwb101]

Just received a tentative itinerary from the Maasdam future cruise consultant for a 2021 Grand South America & Antarctica Voyage, which includes Palmer Archipelago, Danco Coast, and Antarctic Sound, none of which are shown on the 2020 itinerary (which just has "Antarctic Experience" in that area). It departs FLL January 4, and is 74 days. There's no mention of a partial trip (2020 had the option of only going to Buenos Aires).

[Tampa Girl]

11 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

We’re hoping HAL or one of the other mass market cruise lines (X or Princess) does one last Antarctica cruise in Nov/Dec 2021 when a full solar eclipse is scheduled to appear in Antarctica Dec 4, 2021. Because once Jan 1, 2022 gets here, the prices are going to get crazy. 

Check HAL's website, but I think that the Westerdam is scheduled for mid-December, 2020, and early January, 2021, for the SA/Antarctica cruise.  I don't think that the cruise is in time for the eclipse, however.

[Bella0714]

3 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

Check HAL's website, but I think that the Westerdam is scheduled for mid-December, 2020, and early January, 2021, for the SA/Antarctica cruise.  I don't think that the cruise is in time for the eclipse, however.

Westerdam Nov. 27-Dec. 19, 2010. South America, Antarctica and Solar Eclipse. The eclipse is on Dec. 14th.

[Ken the cruiser]

4 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

Check HAL's website, but I think that the Westerdam is scheduled for mid-December, 2020, and early January, 2021, for the SA/Antarctica cruise.  I don't think that the cruise is in time for the eclipse, however.

The one in Dec 2020 appears to go a little north of Buenos Aires. The one we’re interested in (see below) is on Dec 4, 2021 and it actually happens in various parts of Antarctica as well as pretty close to the Falkland Islands, depending on where the ship is. 

 

 

 

[Bella0714]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

The one in Dec 2020 appears to go a little north of Buenos Aires. The one we’re interested in (see below) is on Dec 4, 2021 and it actually happens in various parts of Antarctica as well as pretty close to the Falkland Islands, depending on where the ship is. 

 

 

 

I’m not sure where you got that from. The 2020 eclipse crosses well south of B.A.