Dog on the Edge!

[FireEMT978]

50 minutes ago, lovescarborough said:

On Reflection a couple of weeks back there was a man on his own with a large labradoodle dog wearing a vest saying it was a service animal ' in training ' . Due to a delay in boarding, there was a large crowd on the gangway and the dog didn't like the sound of hand luggage being dragged along and it kept leaping at the cases. The guy had to keep pulling it away from people including us. Now I am a dog lover but it is still a bit alarming to have a dog diving at you. I personally don't think a dog in training should have been allowed onboard as it isn't a true service animal until it is fully trained. I overheard people asking him what the dog did for him and there were vague answers that he helped get him out of bed ! 

This is not ADA protected. Until a "Service dog" has graduated. Many dog's fail training to become a service dog. A true "Service dog" in training, would be with a trainer. Not, with the "End user" until it has graduated.

[NLH Arizona]

57 minutes ago, dkjretired said:

Once again the problem you have is you don’t know whether the establishment is being told it’s an ESO or a service dog.

Emotional support dogs are not allowed in public places.  They are only, under the law, allowed in residences and airplanes,  whereas, Service dogs are allowed everywhere.  If a restaurant is knowingly allowing an emotional support dog in their establishment, they are breaking the law.

[ghstudio]

1 hour ago, dkjretired said:

 

Problem with the state laws is that they cannot supersede Federal laws.  Federal law still states that you cannot ask for documentation and are only allowed to ask two questions, is your animal a service animal and what service does it provide.    Therefore they need to prove the violation in another way. 

 

When discussing this issue, it should be made clear that there is a difference between Emotional Support animals and Service animals.  Two different things, different laws.   We do not know what these people are telling the cruise line as to what the status of the dog is. 

 However, there is nothing illegal about posting the law I quoted above or putting it on a card and handing it to people to be helpful.... "just so they are aware of the law" and the penalties. 

 

At a minimum, Celebrity should post this type of information at check-in, at least at Florida Ports.  

 

Additionally, they should require a written statement from a veterinarian that the dog has received a rabies shot (health concern)  and a copy of it's state/local dog license.  I believe both would be legal.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by ghstudio

[dkjretired]

16 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

Emotional support dogs are not allowed in public places.  They are only, under the law, allowed in residences and airplanes,  whereas, Service dogs are allowed everywhere.  If a restaurant is knowingly allowing an emotional support dog in their establishment, they are breaking the law.

 

With all due respect that is not correct.  If I own a restaurant and there are no local regulations against allowing dogs into the restaurant, I can let pretty much anything into the restaurant that I wish.   The laws for Support dogs mostly refer to the airlines and explain what they can and cannot do.  We have several local establishments that have outside eating areas where you can bring your dog, cat or whatever.   

 

Point of information, the only animals that are allowed to be Service animals are dogs and in some cases miniature horses.   

[NLH Arizona]

46 minutes ago, dkjretired said:

 

With all due respect that is not correct.  If I own a restaurant and there are no local regulations against allowing dogs into the restaurant, I can let pretty much anything into the restaurant that I wish.   The laws for Support dogs mostly refer to the airlines and explain what they can and cannot do.  We have several local establishments that have outside eating areas where you can bring your dog, cat or whatever.   

 

Point of information, the only animals that are allowed to be Service animals are dogs and in some cases miniature horses.   

With all due respect, the Health Department prohibits dogs inside restaurants, unless it is a Service Dog, not an emotional support animal, which is not covered under ADA.  If there is an outdoor area, dogs can go there.  There is a big difference between inside the restaurant and outside the restaurant on a patio.  Please prove me wrong and show me that any state Health Department allows dogs inside a restaurant, because when I get my next dog, I'll go to that state, so she can come in the restaurant with me.

 

There are two laws for emotional support dogs.  One is the Fair Housing Act, which requires landlords, etc. to allow emotional support dogs.  The second is the Air Carriers Access Act, which allows emotional support dogs on airlines.

Edited February 7, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[DaCruiseBug]

19 hours ago, chaswill said:

We just completed our cruise on the Edge, 20 Jan - 27 Jan, and spotted a small dog being carried around by a passenger.  She took it in a small bag to a show in the theater and into the cafe!! We questioned a staff member at Guest Services and he said they have to go through a lot of paperwork to bring a dog on board and are told that some ports will not let animals off the ship. He said that there was a place on deck 5 where the dog can do their ‘business’. IMHO, I think this is setting  dangerous precedent after what has happened with the airlines.

 

Yeah we saw that as well. It was a lady probably in her 50s/60s walking around everywhere with that dog. It was a little poodle (or similar sized dog). It was most definitely an emotional support animal. We overheard a conversation she was having and boy was she a piece of work...

Edited February 7, 2019 by DaCruiseBug

[dkjretired]

41 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

With all due respect, the Health Department prohibits dogs inside restaurants, unless it is a Service Dog, not an emotional support animal, which is not covered under ADA.  If there is an outdoor area, dogs can go there.  There is a big difference between inside the restaurant and outside the restaurant on a patio.  Please prove me wrong and show me that any state Health Department allows dogs inside a restaurant, because when I get my next dog, I'll go to that state, so she can come in the restaurant with me.

 

There are two laws for emotional support dogs.  One is the Fair Housing Act, which requires landlords, etc. to allow emotional support dogs.  The second is the Air Carriers Access Act, which allows emotional support dogs on airlines.

 

Point I was making is that there is no law which forbids them in restaurants or other establishments nationwide, health laws can vary from state to state or even city to city.   

[NLH Arizona]

13 minutes ago, dkjretired said:

 

Point I was making is that there is no law which forbids them in restaurants or other establishments nationwide, health laws can vary from state to state or even city to city.   

If health department laws can vary from state to state or even city to city with regard to dogs in restaurants, please point me to a state or city that allows dogs inside restaurants, because in all my traveling around the United States, I've never run into one.  The only public buildings an emotional support dogs is allowed in, is a building that allows all dogs.

Edited February 7, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[dodger1964]

46 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

If health department laws can vary from state to state or even city to city with regard to dogs in restaurants, please point me to a state or city that allows dogs inside restaurants, because in all my traveling around the United States, I've never run into one.  The only public buildings an emotional support dogs is allowed in, is a building that allows all dogs.

Maybe they are looking the other way...but I can state for a fact that a very upscale bar in downtown Minneapolis allows dogs. 

[DaCruiseBug]

51 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

If health department laws can vary from state to state or even city to city with regard to dogs in restaurants, please point me to a state or city that allows dogs inside restaurants, because in all my traveling around the United States, I've never run into one.  The only public buildings an emotional support dogs is allowed in, is a building that allows all dogs.

 

There doesn't need to be a law that allows pets in restaurants. In the absence of a law it is up to the establishment to determine if a pet is allowed or not. So unless every single state and municipality in the country prohibit pets in restaurants then there's bound to be places where pets are allowed.

[NLH Arizona]

10 minutes ago, dodger1964 said:

Maybe they are looking the other way...but I can state for a fact that a very upscale bar in downtown Minneapolis allows dogs. 

We are talking about restaurants.  If this establishment serves food, they are either service dogs or they are looking the other way:

 

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@health/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-216596.pdf

Edited February 7, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[dodger1964]

9 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

We are talking about restaurants.  If this establishment serves food, they are either service dogs or they are looking the other way:

 

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@health/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-216596.pdf

they serve food, so either look the other way, or it is allowed.

 

[NLH Arizona]

5 minutes ago, dodger1964 said:

they serve food, so either look the other way, or it is allowed.

 

Did you read the link I posted, only service dogs are allowed.

 

Service animals are allowed in restaurants and hotels. They are not allowed in kitchens and food prep areas.

Emotional support animals are not allowed in restaurants, hotels, kitchens and food prep areas.

Edited February 7, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[mfs2k]

Sometimes I judge panhandlers and people who appear to be homeless begging for money on the streets of NYC. I wonder to myself if they’re truly needy or they’re making a living by begging for dollars. I look at what they’re wearing and how dirty they are and whether I see them in bad weather or only when it’s nice. I realize I’m playing God and it’s not my place to judge who is needy and who isn’t. 

I feel like it’s the same with service animals. Who appointed me service animal judge? No one. 

[ladyflatlander]

21 hours ago, lovecruzin said:

While I think there are too many cases of people traveling with their ESAs, keep in mind that not all disabilities are visible. 

Very well said, you never know until you walk in their shoes what disability, physical or mental, they live with

[SRQMom]

5 hours ago, FireEMT978 said:

What I WILL do, if I see someone will their little "Fluffy" that I believe is NOT a "Service Dog". I WILL take pics of the person, dog, etc... And, I WILL post them. I WILL also, send them to corporate of the store, cruise line, restaurant, etc... This has got to stop. The only way, better legislation and enforcement of the laws will happen, is to have corporations and businesses ask for protections. This will protect true "Service dog" owners, and the general public, that feel that they don't have any recourse for these "Selfish and entitled" pet owners. 

I agree with the "observations" of other posts here.  The abusers of the system need to be stopped.  TRUE service animals do not behave in the manner you stated (fed at the table, bark for no reason, etc.).  And the worst part, that behavior can prevent truly disabled people from going places because "pets" (who obviously aren't trained) will "approach" a true service animal and it can turn ugly.  I had a neighbor who was partially blind from an illness and during "season" here in Florida, he has had numerous times where people's "pets with vests" have lunged at his service dog, who then sees it as a threat to his owner and it causes huge problems.  So other's people's selfishness keeps him for going to certain restaurants, etc.   I also have a friend who got a doctor to fill out a form saying her dog was needed as "emotional support" so she can take her dog everywhere with her and not have to pay for boarding or a service to watch it.  It's becoming rampant.  Selfishness is what it is and  I've told her I am very ashamed of her and it's affected our friendship. Because it's WRONG.  It's got to stop.  And I'm glad Florida and other states are attempting to stop the abuse.  Some people only think about themselves.  I'm hoping that changes for the better.

[Lastdance]

People will not stop thinking about themselves no matter what type of law is inacted.  There are always going to be those who decide that the law is not about them...we live in a system where entitlments are the way of life, and no one better dare say differently...we have so many laws now that are not enforced...period.  Making the laws are the easy part; enforcing them are a whole different animal...no pun intended!  I was told on this board a few years ago that there is no such thing as common sense...really...this person still posts on here today...and I must be really, really old to think that exists!

Edited February 7, 2019 by Lastdance

[NLH Arizona]

34 minutes ago, SRQMom said:

I agree with the "observations" of other posts here.  The abusers of the system need to be stopped.  TRUE service animals do not behave in the manner you stated (fed at the table, bark for no reason, etc.).  And the worst part, that behavior can prevent truly disabled people from going places because "pets" (who obviously aren't trained) will "approach" a true service animal and it can turn ugly.  I had a neighbor who was partially blind from an illness and during "season" here in Florida, he has had numerous times where people's "pets with vests" have lunged at his service dog, who then sees it as a threat to his owner and it causes huge problems.  So other's people's selfishness keeps him for going to certain restaurants, etc.   I also have a friend who got a doctor to fill out a form saying her dog was needed as "emotional support" so she can take her dog everywhere with her and not have to pay for boarding or a service to watch it.  It's becoming rampant.  Selfishness is what it is and  I've told her I am very ashamed of her and it's affected our friendship. Because it's WRONG.  It's got to stop.  And I'm glad Florida and other states are attempting to stop the abuse.  Some people only think about themselves.  I'm hoping that changes for the better.

I have a friend with a service dog and they are trained not to retaliate when attacked, because their job is to help their owner.  They went on their first plane trip with Katie and they said it was their worst experience, because of an emotional support dog barking and lunging at her, so they said they can never fly again with her and without her, my friend can't fly. 

 

The only way this emotional support/fake service dogs bs will stops is if:  One, folks stop spreading inaccurate information and two, if there is a system like handicap license plates for service dogs.

[MarLieb]

There was a service dog on the Summit during our Christmas cruise.  We saw him (or her) around the ship and in both Luminae and Michael's Club.  I've never really seen a service dog in action before and, wow, this dog was so well trained.  Completely inconspicuous and never made a sound.  He/she was definitely on-the-job!  I can barely get my dog to sit so I was super impressed.

[floralscent]

On the Edge January 20 cruise we had a women with a small white dog. The dog was carried and if memory serves me right, in a backpack type thing once in a while.  Maybe the dog walked along the women but I never saw it.  My first instinct was what the?

 

As I thought about it more I came to the conclusion that this person either didn't want to leave their animal at home (I mean heck, I didn't want to either, but did) OR there was a real reason for the dog.  Maybe the reason just wasn't visible. 

 

I know we are all quick to judge if we don't see a visible disability but honestly, you never really know what is going on.  It appeared the dog wasn't necessary but I have no idea what the real reason might be.  I know society is off the rails these days and people can be selfish. The truth is the reason could be emotional and the only way a person can function is with a dog.  For those that work the system, shame on you.  My motto is live an honest life and hopefully those that don't will face the truth some day.

[NLH Arizona]

9 minutes ago, floralscent said:

On the Edge January 20 cruise we had a women with a small white dog. The dog was carried and if memory serves me right, in a backpack type thing once in a while.  Maybe the dog walked along the women but I never saw it.  My first instinct was what the?

 

As I thought about it more I came to the conclusion that this person either didn't want to leave their animal at home (I mean heck, I didn't want to either, but did) OR there was a real reason for the dog.  Maybe the reason just wasn't visible. 

 

I know we are all quick to judge if we don't see a visible disability but honestly, you never really know what is going on.  It appeared the dog wasn't necessary but I have no idea what the real reason might be.  I know society is off the rails these days and people can be selfish. The truth is the reason could be emotional and the only way a person can function is with a dog.  For those that work the system, shame on you.  My motto is live an honest life and hopefully those that don't will face the truth some day.

It could have been a service dog that alerts owner of low blood sugar or of an impending seizure.

Edited February 8, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[floralscent]

1 minute ago, NLH Arizona said:

It could have been a service dog that alerts owner to spike in blood sugar or of an impending seizure.

Exactly!  You never really know.  It's easy to judge and make up stories but...

[RunBikeCruiseDC]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:56 PM, NLH Arizona said:

It could have been a service dog that alerts owner of low blood sugar or of an impending seizure.

yes, could be. but such a dog would be "working" and it would not be able to "work"  in a bag or stroller.  I have a friend with a dog trained to respond to asthma attacks and retrieves an inhaler.  the dog is obviously large enough where he can do the job and never gets dressed up or stuck in a bag...

Edited March 14, 2019 by RunBikeCruiseDC

[keesar]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:56 PM, NLH Arizona said:

It could have been a service dog that alerts owner of low blood sugar or of an impending seizure.

 

A true service dog does not change outfits twice in a day and have a cardboard sign on the basket that says "Service Dog".  Then one of the owners in a motorized wheelchair jumps up and moves quickly to get the fresh bakery items arriving at the Cafe.

 

This whole things reminds me of the Miracle in the Air.  There were 8 individuals needing assistance who boarded early.   Then when the plane arrived in FLL,  these individuals were seen moving nicely UP the ramp off the plane.  No wheelchairs needed any more.  Miracle in the Air.

[ipeeinthepool]

Hopefully Captain Kate will take charge and throw these people and their imposter Service/Support Animals off the ship.