Martini Debate

[Fogfog]

So on the Martini Bar menu it states that the drinks are 4 parts premium liquor.

I maintain that they are larger martinis and more than 1 jigger  and evidenced also by the glass

 

As compared to say the Ensemble Lounge which is a smaller martini - and smaller glass

 

DH says that no--he has watched them make the drinks at the Martini bar and they are 1 jigger... 

 

Part of the debate has to do with are the martinis we make at home "stronger"/less ice melt and more liquor...

 

Thoughts? Are the Martini Bar drinks several more ounces of liquor than a jigger?

 

 

 

 

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, Fogfog said:

So on the Martini Bar menu it states that the drinks are 4 parts premium liquor.

I maintain that they are larger martinis and more than 1 jigger  and evidenced also by the glass

 

As compared to say the Ensemble Lounge which is a smaller martini - and smaller glass

 

DH says that no--he has watched them make the drinks at the Martini bar and they are 1 jigger... 

 

Part of the debate has to do with are the martinis we make at home "stronger"/less ice melt and more liquor...

 

Thoughts? Are the Martini Bar drinks several more ounces of liquor than a jigger?

 

 

 

 

Depends on what you call a martini??

If it's a classic gin or vodka martini it would be almost all gin or vodka (What else would be in it other than a breathe of vermouth?) These are made in 2 sizes so the # of jiggers or shots would vary. Very little ice melt as the liquor should only be in contact with the ices for a very short time. MOSTLY BOOZE.. LOL

 

If it was any of the other hundreds of cocktails that are served in a martini glass and are CALLED martinis the amount of liquor vs all the other junk, like flavorings and liqueurs, would vary from drink to drink. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by boscobeans

[Fogfog]

30 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

Depends on what you call a martini??

If it's a classic gin or vodka martini it would be almost all gin or vodka (What else would be in it other than a breathe of vermouth?) These are made in 2 sizes so the # of jiggers or shots would vary. Very little ice melt as the liquor should only be in contact with the ices for a very short time. MOSTLY BOOZE.. LOL

 

If it was any of the other hundreds of cocktails that are served in a martini glass and are CALLED martinis the amount of liquor vs all the other junk, like flavorings and liqueurs, would vary from drink to drink. 

Correct

As a purist I am thinking classic gin or vodka... no juices etc

So when they call for 4 parts.. do you think thats 4 jiggers? or 4 ounces? or a measure thats neither of those?

 

[UFMOM]

From what I remember a lot of the bartenders just do straight pours into the shaker of all the liquors. Never seen a lot of measuring out so who knows how much is in there. Sometimes it is more than the glass holds and they keep it behind the bar and top me up after I have taken a few sips. I agree that most of the drinks are cocktails in a martini glass. I consider a real martini as gin with a vermouth bottle waved over it with either a twist or an olive, your preference.

 

Mary Ann.

 

 

 

[miched]

As earlier posted they do straight pours when making the martinis.  Even though they do a straight pour they are very accurate In the amount.   One BT did a demonstration.  He was making me a drink and did a free pour then poured it into a measuring glass.   He said they they count while pouring to get the right amount.   He also did another while talking at the same time.  It comes from training and experience.  

 

the martinis at the martini bar does use all premium spirits in their menu list.  The glasses are larger than what is served at other bars.

 

if you have a premium package and get a martini at any other bar they will usually make it with call spirits and served in a smaller glass.   You need to ask for a premium liquor and they will use it.   They won’t make any of the fancy premium martinis that you get at the martini bar because they don’t have the ingredients and they are unique to that bar.  

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

Perhaps you need to discuss the definition of a jigger?  Technically one could argue that it is 1 1/2 ounces but there are different sizes of the small device.  I have also seen 3/4 ounce, And 1 ounce.  And many bars use automatic measuring devices that can be set.

 

At the Martini bar some bar tenders will pour a generous amount...especially if they know you have a drink package.  A friend argues that the perfect Martini is straight gin or vodka.  He says if the person wants some vermouth you just put some ice in the shaker, add a little vermouth, shake once, drain out all the vermouth and then add gin or vodka :).

 

Hank

 

 

 

 

[RICCruisers]

It depends on what X is calling a "Part" in the 4 Parts of Premium Liquor.  A Jigger is 1.5 ounces so 4 Parts in that scenario is actually 6 ounces.  Most likely they mean 4 Shots which in the USA is 4 ounces.  As was mentioned, the bartenders at the Martini almost always pour free hand vs using any type of measuring device.  They are pretty good at knowing what it takes to fill the glass.  If they don't have a good feel for how much to pour into the shaker and consistently over fill it they will likely get a remedial course on how to do it since they will be "wasting" liquor.

 

I don't have any proof of this, but it is my feeling the size of the Martini Glasses has shrunk over the past couple of years.  On Edge they now have Large and Small Martinis.  Only the Small ones are included in the Premium Package.  They are priced at $15.00 and $18.00.

[Fogfog]

2 minutes ago, RICCruisers said:

It depends on what X is calling a "Part" in the 4 Parts of Premium Liquor.  A Jigger is 1.5 ounces so 4 Parts in that scenario is actually 6 ounces.  Most likely they mean 4 Shots which in the USA is 4 ounces.  As was mentioned, the bartenders at the Martini almost always pour free hand vs using any type of measuring device.  They are pretty good at knowing what it takes to fill the glass.  If they don't have a good feel for how much to pour into the shaker and consistently over fill it they will likely get a remedial course on how to do it since they will be "wasting" liquor.

 

I don't have any proof of this, but it is my feeling the size of the Martini Glasses has shrunk over the past couple of years.  On Edge they now have Large and Small Martinis.  Only the Small ones are included in the Premium Package.  They are priced at $15.00 and $18.00.

Right

I maintain that the martini bar drinks have more liquor than 1 jigger (1 1/2 oz) and 4 parts while likely not 6 ounces.. however maybe  is 4 oz? and clearly more than 1 jigger like he maintains

 

DH maintains that here at home the drink is more liquor than the martini bar. ..however here at home the glass used is the size of a traditional small martini/manhattan glass of years gone by-- similar to the Ensemble Lounge size... and Liquor+ ice melt fills that glass. 

 

Since the Martini Bar glasses are considerably larger and served full.. I just think there has to be more alcohol

 

Because they say parts-- I wonder

 

Part of the debate came from size/strength of drinks 

 

[CruisinCons]

I took a bartending class way back when in college and we were taught that a "part" does not mean a specific measurement.  That word was used just to make the recipe that could be increased or decreased based on the size of glass.  It's hard to put into words 30+ years later, but I can offer an example recipe:

 

1 part vodka

1 part rum

2 parts midori

3 parts simple syrup

 

If you used 1 part = 1 oz, this would make a drink that was 7 oz and thus when adding ice you use a tall glass.

 

If you wanted it in a small cocktail glass, 1 part = .5 oz, thus giving you 3.5 oz of liquid plus ice so use a small glass.

 

So, 4 parts just means equal measurements of each liquor if recipe calls for 4 ingredients.  If there are only 2 ingredients, then it's half one and half the other.  This enables the bartender to memorize the recipe and then just customize it to the size of the glass.

 

I'm sure bartending rules have changed since the 80s, but that is how we did it way back then.  LOL 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by CruisinCons

[boscobeans]

35 minutes ago, Fogfog said:

 

 

Part of the debate came from size/strength of drinks 

 

 

The SIZE of the drink depends on how much gin or vodka you dump into the ice.

If you put in 3 ounces of liquor you will get out a martini that is just a tiny bit more than 3 ounces

 

The STRENGTH of the drink depends on if you add other things besides the base liquor or allow the gin or vodka to sit in the shaker until the ice melts???? 

 

I guess I am having trouble understanding exactly what you are describing as a martini or a drink at the martini bar ???

Whether at the martini bar or any other bar a real martini should be about the same exact strength but possibly different in size.

[Fogfog]

10 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

 

The SIZE of the drink depends on how much gin or vodka you dump into the ice.

If you put in 3 ounces of liquor you will get out a martini that is just a tiny bit more than 3 ounces

 

The STRENGTH of the drink depends on if you add other things besides the base liquor or allow the gin or vodka to sit in the shaker until the ice melts???? 

 

I guess I am having trouble understanding exactly what you are describing as a martini or a drink at the martini bar ???

Whether at the martini bar or any other bar a real martini should be about the same exact strength but possibly different in size.

It comes does to my DHs assertion that the Martini Bar used 1 jigger of liquor (he asserts its 1.5 oz)

I suggest it is more than that at the Martini Bar

I believe smaller drinks here at home pack more of a punch--He claims thats because we have less ice melt...

My point to him was that a smaller drink here (classic martini- vodka or gin) should not be stronger than a bigger classic martini (vodka or gin) at the Martini bar when there is supposed to be more alcohol in it/consumed

 

 

 

 

 

[boscobeans]

3 minutes ago, Fogfog said:

It comes does to my DHs assertion that the Martini Bar used 1 jigger of liquor (he asserts its 1.5 oz)

 

If that was so what else did they put in the glass so it didn't look empty? LOL

[Fogfog]

21 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

 

If that was so what else did they put in the glass so it didn't look empty? LOL

Crushed ice/shaken=ice melt 

 

ergo the question about 4 parts, 

 

I know in Ensemble they use a jigger...   At least they did on the B2B we did in Sept

And the glasses are smaller- like a traditional martini/manhattan glass

[Ozzmund]

Have enjoyed Bombay Sapphire martinis on most of the Celebrity line, in the Martini Bar, Ensemble Lounge and Michael's Club. In my experience, the practice of straight pours is more common than the use of a measuring glass in Michael's and the Martini Bar. I do think martinis from those locations are stronger.

[Gonzo70]

A true martini would be approximately 2oz of gin and 1oz of dry vermouth stirred (not shaken) until it is diluted with about 1.5oz of water (served with either olives or a lemon twist). The chilling generated from the stir tones down the ethanol notes so the more subtle/interesting notes of the gin and vermouth to be pleasant. If using lower end gin and/or vermouth then typically one would not dilute as much (as the ethanol taste will mask the inferior quality) or make it a variation on a true martini and add additional ingredients to be the forward flavors, i.e. lemon drops, chocolate “martinis” etc. Using vodka is also a “play” on a true martini. A true martini using good quality ingredients should never be shaken; while it may be more of a “show” it messes with the texture and more subtle aromas and flavors, which are what makes a great martini great.

 

A lot of people who tend to order “martinis” with vodka or extra components haven’t had a true martini made with good quality gin and vermouth and well executed. Mediocre gin or a martini made poorly can really taste bad, whereas with vodka being a neutral spirit, a great “vodka martini” doesn’t exist but it is also more difficult to make a bad “martini” with vodka. A martini with excellent gin (Monkey 47 is my favorite) and good vermouth that is executed well is a treat. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Gonzo70

[gordiej]

That's great, except for those of us who are revolted by gin. 😊

[MEcruzr]

On 10/19/2019 at 9:39 PM, Gonzo70 said:

 A martini with excellent gin (Monkey 47 is my favorite) and good vermouth that is executed well is a treat. 

What other gins do you recommend?

[Gonzo70]

1 hour ago, MEcruzr said:

What other gins do you recommend?

 

For a martini, my second favorite gin (after Monkey 47) is Old Raj. For a negroni my favorite gin is Kyro Koskue. Even people who tend to be whiskey drinkers and think they dislike gin generally love a negroni made with Kyro Koskue.

[PTC DAWG]

10 hours ago, gordiej said:

That's great, except for those of us who are revolted by gin. 😊

I would contend you haven't had the right drink made by the right bartender.  

[boscobeans]

I started drinking martinis back in the mid 60's and enjoyed most of the current brands available back then and still love the same brands today.

In my bar I made uncountable numbers of martinis and once again (70's) never had a request for anything more exotic than the good old bottle with Queen Victoria on the label and no sapphire mentioned anywhere.. LOL

 

So how do these 40+$ a bottle gins stack up to those made when I first enjoyed them. 

Would there be some religious epiphany? LOL.

 

[groryjm]

right

 

Firstly let me give you an idea of where I am. I am am an amarure as far as cocktails are concerned and probablly only make three or four a night , 365 days a year. Barring a couple of weeks cruising when some one else makes them for me. 

 

if one shakes a cocktail it rapidly cools it with out adding water. Conversly if one stirs it slowly cools adding a little water.

 

A jigger is a unit of measure much like a part. In the US they usually use 1oz as a base to multiply from where as in Europe 25ml is a single shot . In actual units 1oz is approximatly 30ml. being a Brit all my measures are in ml.

 

In the martini bar they guess and to be fair are pretty experienced and thus fairly close . In a top class cocktail bar like the Savoy in London they measure to the nearest ml. A Martini bar cocktail will vary slightly from server to server where as somewhere like the Savoy , or indeed the World Class Bar, every time a cocktail is made it is the same .

 

As to a Martini an ideal ratio is 2 parts gin to 1 part vermouth. It was a some what tounge in cheek comment by Noël Coward, "A perfect martini should be made by filling a glass with gin, then waving it in the general direction of Italy", and further ratified by Hawkeye Pearce of MASH fame that brought about the concept of a martini big basically gin. 

 

As far as Celebrity is concerned any thing in the traditional martini glass is a martini.Which to my mind it not. Their classic martini is Vodka and Noily Pratt. They at least get the vermouth right but to be a "classic" martini it should be gin at a two to one ratio. 

 

I have about 60 martini glasses at home varrying from 100ml , 150ml to as much as 200 ml. 

 

Personally I use 60 ml of Tanqerry ten and 40ml of Noily pratt dry vermouth. which works perfectly, in my humble opinion. Tanquery ten is 47% by vol so an ordinary tanquery or other gin at a more normal 40% by vol would need to be about 70ml to 40ml to be the same strength.

 

The real answer to this conundrum however is to play and find what you like. it may not be right but if you enjoy it that is all that counts.

 

Personally I prefer a Negroni at 50ml each of Tanquerry flor de Savila, campari and Punt E Mess. But that is another question altogether.......

[shipshape sam]

On our recent cruise at the Martini Bar, we requested Martini and what we were served was a 4 oz Martini for just over $17 which included tax and tip.

 

Who knows if it was top shelf?

 

[boscobeans]

9 minutes ago, shipshape sam said:

On our recent cruise at the Martini Bar, we requested Martini and what we were served was a 4 oz Martini for just over $17 which included tax and tip.

 

Who knows if it was top shelf?

 

What di you consider top shelf vs well.

[CruisinCons]

Just got off the Summit yesterday, and spent most of my free time at the Martini Bar.  They never measured once - just free poured.  Always had exactly they right amount for the glass, too.  Pretty amazing these bartenders!! 

[sasset]

Just off Infinity. Most vodka martinis in the Martini Bar appeared to be Tito's or Grey Goose, unless you requested a specific brand. Most gin martini's were Bombay Sapphire, again unless you called it. I drank either Hendrick's or Plymouth on the Premium Package and both were always covered. All were free poured. One night a guy came in and asked for a martini. The bartender looked at his card and told him he couldn't make him a martini because this was a premium bar, I'm assuming he didn't have any beverage package,  but he could go to another bar or get gin and vermouth in a highball glass over ice. That's what he got. First time I'd ever seen or heard that.

Edited October 27, 2019 by sasset
clarity