If you Don't Think HAL is a bargain today, Think Again

[RedneckBob]

5 hours ago, Vic The Parrot said:

If you want to unload that brochure, I'll buy it from you.  😎

Currently on eBay

[RedneckBob]

4 hours ago, Billthekid said:

If your cruise records are up to date and available it would be interesting to determine which of the cruises that you took, and which one did you like best.  Then look at the price you paid per cruise night and the date of that cruise.  Try to remember what amenities you had on that particular cruise.  Then review cruise prices today and what amenities you no longer receive, then in your own mind determine if in fact you are receiving the same value.  The price may be the same, but the joy may not be.

I think I need a PhD from MIT to do this analysis. But I do have a good start, have file folder on every cruise we took since 1976. Maybe I get out my old calculator, an abacus.

[TAD2005]

6 minutes ago, RedneckBob said:

Thanks for the analysis TAD2005. I was just about to run the numbers myself and you are spot on. In 1987 we sailed on the old Noordam, 7 day cruise in the Caribbean cruise, departing 12/10/87 for $1,100 pp. It was a high end Oceanview cabin. This December 11, 2019, a 7 day cruise on the Veendam, high end Oceanview is $750 pp. Now I know things have changed but not based on pricing. By the way nice to met you on South Pacific cruise last March.

Hey Redneck Bob,  it was nice to put a face to a CC screen name.   That was a great cruise.   Rotterdam, Oct 3, 2020, 29 days from Rotterdam to FLL is next for us.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

IThese passengers have priority in everything. I'm told that a block of seats have been reserved for the theater by the concierge. And, you can ask the butler for snacks and drinks.

 

 

That just seems wrong to me in every way. Can't see myself ever wanting to sail on that ship, either in a suite or in the cheap seats.

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

That just seems wrong to me in every way. Can't see myself ever wanting to sail on that ship, either in a suite or in the cheap seats.

 

Thank You.

[Stateroom_Sailor]

8 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

Ran Redneck Bob's prices for an Oceanview cabin through the inflation calculator.  

The $1270 price in 1988 is equal to $2721 in today's US $

The $1795 price in 1988 is equal to $3846 in today's US$.

A 7 day Caribbean cruise today in an OV cabin on HAL is $494 for an OV and $854 for a suite.

Yes, overall quality has been reduced,  but how many of us could afford to plop down $2821 or $3846 these days for a 7 day cruise ?   Prices like that would kill the cruise industry, and would seriously reduce the number of ships available to us today.  The reduced inventory would drive prices even higher.   

So as Redneck Bob said "It ain't so bad these days" !!   

As a comparison, I flew from PHL to SFO in coach on TWA in 1969 for $375 RT.   50 years later, the cost for that same flight is about the same today. 

 

These price are available today, such as Crystal Serenity, for $2,099 on Dec 2nd, 2020.  If you can get to Miami for $600 or less, you'll probably get better bang per buck today on Crystal than you did on HAL back then.

[kazu]

11 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

That just seems wrong to me in every way. Can't see myself ever wanting to sail on that ship, either in a suite or in the cheap seats.

 

+1 Ditto 🙂 

[Homosassa]

13 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

Ran Redneck Bob's prices for an Oceanview cabin through the inflation calculator.  

The $1270 price in 1988 is equal to $2721 in today's US $

The $1795 price in 1988 is equal to $3846 in today's US$.

A 7 day Caribbean cruise today in an OV cabin on HAL is $494 for an OV and $854 for a suite.

Yes, overall quality has been reduced,  but how many of us could afford to plop down $2821 or $3846 these days for a 7 day cruise ?   Prices like that would kill the cruise industry, and would seriously reduce the number of ships available to us today.  The reduced inventory would drive prices even higher.   

So as Redneck Bob said "It ain't so bad these days" !!   

As a comparison, I flew from PHL to SFO in coach on TWA in 1969 for $375 RT.   50 years later, the cost for that same flight is about the same today. 

These calculations prove my point about Viking. For a ten night cruise last summer (high season) in the Mediterranean, I paid $3,000 for a mid range balcony cabin. 

 

[cruisemom42]

14 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

Ran Redneck Bob's prices for an Oceanview cabin through the inflation calculator.  

The $1270 price in 1988 is equal to $2721 in today's US $

The $1795 price in 1988 is equal to $3846 in today's US$.

A 7 day Caribbean cruise today in an OV cabin on HAL is $494 for an OV and $854 for a suite.

Yes, overall quality has been reduced,  but how many of us could afford to plop down $2821 or $3846 these days for a 7 day cruise ?   Prices like that would kill the cruise industry, and would seriously reduce the number of ships available to us today.  The reduced inventory would drive prices even higher.   

So as Redneck Bob said "It ain't so bad these days" !!   

As a comparison, I flew from PHL to SFO in coach on TWA in 1969 for $375 RT.   50 years later, the cost for that same flight is about the same today. 

 

Then people should stop complaining about what's no longer offered.

 

Personally, I would rather cruise slightly less frequently and pay more to retain some of the same "ambience" aboard.  

 

Certainly it would not "kill" the cruise industry; there are a number of lines that apply a similar pricing today and offer a different experience (smaller ships, more $$ per pax on food, etc.)

 

[Homosassa]

13 hours ago, RuthC said:

I would happily try Viking Ocean, even at their higher prices, if only they were more disabled friendly. 
I love the idea of their smaller ships, and the HAL of long ago type experience. 

It is my understanding that someone who uses a scooter on cruises is not accommodated on Viking Ocean ships. Wheelchairs users are, as well as rollators, but not the heavy equipment. 

 

Here is what I saw on my Viking cruise:

 

Viking literature does lay out the parameters on what is available for disabled travel on board ship. Accessible cabins are available.  However, because of the ports that are visited on their itineraries, they warn that a person must be able to embark and disembark the ship and board buses on their own (i.e.; no scooters or wheelchairs with passengers on the gangway). It is also possible that in certain ports the gangway may be steep and that a scooter (without a passenger) can not be taken ashore.

 

On our cruise there were several folks who used scooters on board and there is at least one poster on the Viking board that uses a scooter.  Depending on the ports of call, those folks stayed on board if they were not able to climb the steep bus stairs or knew that the ancient sites had no accessibility for scooters or wheel chairs. 

 

Yes, rollators and wheelchairs were accommodated (bus drivers cheerfully placed them in the under bus luggage compartment), but as noted, those folks did need to make it out of the ship and into the bus on their own (no kneeling buses at our ports of call and some of the steps in the buses were steep ). 

[cruisemom42]

13 hours ago, RuthC said:

I would happily try Viking Ocean, even at their higher prices, if only they were more disabled friendly. 
I love the idea of their smaller ships, and the HAL of long ago type experience. 

It is my understanding that someone who uses a scooter on cruises is not accommodated on Viking Ocean ships. Wheelchairs users are, as well as rollators, but not the heavy equipment. 

 

I often wonder whether, once Viking has 10 ships under operation, they will soften their stance on some things like this, discounting the solo supplement, prepayment far in advance or their odd system of booking shore excursions....

 

[RuthC]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

On our cruise there were several folks who used scooters on board and there is at least one poster on the Viking board that uses a scooter. 

This is wonderful news to me! I need the scooter on the ship, and can sometimes use it in port, if in a place where I just want to 'walk' around. 
I can't take a scooter on a HAL bus tour, either, so that's a wash. I can get on/off a bus, so long as the bus is either at a curb or can lower; I'm sure that at least some Viking tour buses can be lowered. Ruins have been out for me for years! 

I have a Viking brochure, so now I can peruse it a bit more carefully. Thank you for this info! 

[RuthC]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

I often wonder whether, once Viking has 10 ships under operation, they will soften their stance on some things like this, discounting the solo supplement, prepayment far in advance or their odd system of booking shore excursions....

Isn't that a good question. It would be nice if they did any of those. 

[iancal]

We really do not care what we paid for a cruise five, ten, twenty years ago.  Same for any travel product.  We are well aware that the price of cruising and air travel is much less  than it was in the past.

 

We only care about the cost  today, the relative value that we perceive in the offering, and how it compares with other similar competing offers.

Edited December 7, 2019 by iancal

[HAL4NOW]

32 minutes ago, RuthC said:

 I can get on/off a bus, so long as the bus is either at a curb or can lower; I'm sure that at least some Viking tour buses can be lowered. 

Hey, Ruth. It may be a bit of a hassle, but you can get a folding step stool that is light weight and heavy duty. Here is one example from Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Vanderbilt-Home-S1529-Samsonite-Folding-stools/dp/B07G7F6PQK/ref=sr_1_10?keywords=folding%2Bstep%2Bstool%2Bheavy%2Bduty&qid=1575734807&sr=8-10&th=1

[Happily@Sea]

17 hours ago, RuthC said:

I would happily try Viking Ocean, even at their higher prices, if only they were more disabled friendly. 
I love the idea of their smaller ships, and the HAL of long ago type experience. 

It is my understanding that someone who uses a scooter on cruises is not accommodated on Viking Ocean ships. Wheelchairs users are, as well as rollators, but not the heavy equipment. 

 

Plus, I've seen on the cruise streams - they are usually at anchor - another tender port to negotiate. Now this may be the exception because of the ports I've watched, but who wants a major port to be a tender stop.

 

Riverboats are also like this - not disabled friendly.  The tours can be - but not the ship itself.

 

That where Viking learned their trade.

 

[Homosassa]

RuthC,

Why don't you start a thread in the Viking Ocean Forum that asks about any experiences on disabled cruising on Viking?

I do know I have seen references to it in other threads on the board.

[RuthC]

2 hours ago, Homosassa said:

RuthC,

Why don't you start a thread in the Viking Ocean Forum that asks about any experiences on disabled cruising on Viking?

I do know I have seen references to it in other threads on the board.

Good idea when I find another cruise I am particularly interested in on Viking. I'll read through the forum and get a real feel for it before I do that, too. 

A while back Viking posted a cruise I was drooling over; I think it leaves this January. It's up the coast of Norway, and looking for the Northern Lights. Isn't this the cruise that started last year, and the ship got in a lot of trouble? People were rescued from the ship before power was restored? 
That stopped the drooling faster than fast. 

[HokiePoq]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:55 AM, RedneckBob said:

Hi y'all, Redneck Bob hear.

 

Just the other day I was clearing out, getting rid of or just dusting off some storage boxes in my barn. I opened one box and low and behold there was this Cruise Brochure, Holland America Line, Caribbean cruises 1988-1989. It looked brand new! I opened the brochure to see what ships were around and the prices. HAL has four boats in the Caribbean for the winter of '88-'89; old Noordam, Westerdam, Nieuw Amsterdam and Rotterdam. None of the ships had cabins with balconies; only inside and outside w/windows.

 

Excluding costs for free airfare the Oceanview cabins started at $1,270 pp to $1,795 pp, 7 day cruise. This was the "Economy Fare" between 10/15/88 and 12/10/88. I guess we don't know how good we have it today!

Wow!   Explains why the fresh flowers and fresh squeezed orange juice are missing!   Thanks for sharing.

[TAD2005]

The point (I think) Redneck Bob and I were trying to make is with the prices cruises were going for back in those days for a 7 day cruise would equal $400 or $500 per day, per person in today's dollars.   If that level of pricing continued,  there would be many fewer people cruising, and with fewer people to fill the cabins, there would be many fewer ships available.   Fewer ships means less inventory to sell, therefor,  much higher prices.   

The cruise lines realized back in the 80's that if their industry was going to survive, they needed to attract more "heads in beds".  So they lowered prices, and eventually built bigger ships.  To keep the prices low, they did cut quality and services,  which opened the window for higher quality luxury ships, but with associated higher per-day prices.   One post mentioned a 10 day Viking cruise for $3000.  That is $300 per day and much higher than the more reasonable $100 - $150 per day of the major market lines.  If people can afford to pay $300, $400 or $500 per day for a cruise, then more power to them.  There are luxury lines that are happy to take their money.   

[HappyInVan]

Today, most people (with money to spend)  compare prices for different itineraries and companies. What is the utility that they recover for spending their money? The movement of HAL veterans away from HAL is an important demographic.

 

There is a sense that HAL's management has lost its way. Unable to maintain its value proposition. Copying (unsuccessfully) the successful innovations pioneered by others.

 

The market is always right. The collapse of price discipline is an important indicator of a failing product. 

 

 

 

 

[iancal]

I recognize that the fares are lower.  But if we have a less than satisfactory cruise we are hardly going to excuse the cruise line by reasoning that the prices are much lower today than they were twenty years ago.

 

Cruise lines set expectations for customers.   Customers reasonably expect them to be met.

[RedneckBob]

13 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

The point (I think) Redneck Bob and I were trying to make is with the prices cruises were going for back in those days for a 7 day cruise would equal $400 or $500 per day, per person in today's dollars.   If that level of pricing continued,  there would be many fewer people cruising, and with fewer people to fill the cabins, there would be many fewer ships available.   Fewer ships means less inventory to sell, therefor,  much higher prices.   

The cruise lines realized back in the 80's that if their industry was going to survive, they needed to attract more "heads in beds".  So they lowered prices, and eventually built bigger ships.  To keep the prices low, they did cut quality and services,  which opened the window for higher quality luxury ships, but with associated higher per-day prices.   One post mentioned a 10 day Viking cruise for $3000.  That is $300 per day and much higher than the more reasonable $100 - $150 per day of the major market lines.  If people can afford to pay $300, $400 or $500 per day for a cruise, then more power to them.  There are luxury lines that are happy to take their money.   

 

Correct.  I believe some of the reasons cruising is cheaper is there are a lot more boats and passengers out there sailing the oceans then back in 1988. Also HAL has added some extras for their loyal people such as free Pinnacle dinners, half off other restaurants, free laundry, etc, etc etc. This makes cruising even a better bargain. But I also know there have been lots of cuts. Many may not know this but years ago and I mean years, everyone in a suite got to have a dinner with the Captain at one time. One time it was held by the Lido pool another time in the old Hudson Room. Though we were not in a suite we were invited to one of these affairs. No one would tell us why we were invited to the Captains dinner with all the people in the suites even though we were in Room 776, inside, bottom deck. At the dinner the Hotel Manager told my DW that we were invited because we were "Suite (Sweet) People"

[cruisemom42]

14 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

That is $300 per day and much higher than the more reasonable $100 - $150 per day of the major market lines.  If people can afford to pay $300, $400 or $500 per day for a cruise, then more power to them.  There are luxury lines that are happy to take their money.   

 

Now just try to imagine how those of us who travel solo and pay double per person/per diem feel. Is it worth $300/day to sail on a mass market ship when I can sail on a luxury line for sometimes the same price or not much more??

 

As an example: I just priced the 2021 Voyage of the Vikings on HAL's Zaandam in Ocean View partially obstructed cabin for 19 days, because I thought the price being asked by Oceania on Sirena (one of the 680-pax ex-R ships that has just been massively refurbished) was very high. Results (both for partially obstructed OV room):

 

Oceania Sirena (20 days): $13,113 -- includes gratuities, free internet, free specialty dining, airfare, plus a small amount of onboard credit. That's $656/day.

 

HAL Zaandam (19 days): $12,968  -- "all inclusive" offer includes everything above as per Oceania EXCEPT specialty dining and free internet (only offered for suites), but does include drinks package. That's $683/day.

 

Since I'm not a heavy drinker, this is basically a wash for me. Plus I like the Sirena itinerary better (more stops in Greenland), and I know which ship I'd rather be on...

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by cruisemom42

[ArnoldDonald]

Redneck Bob is correct.

In the good old days, HAL was a good value product. It offered a very good quality product for a decent price.

Then Carnival stepped in and gutted the product - to keep prices low and profits high - with minimal investment.

Today it is a bargain - as in cheap. The form is still there (somewhere), but the substance is gone.

 

No matter the product, there is always somebody who can do it cheaper.

And there is always somebody who is willing to buy that cheaper product - and then make lame excuses about the decision.

 

Next we will be talking about renting a tent and borrowing a leaky canoe. It's not quite as good as an expensive cruise, but it is a great bargain - and there are no gratuities, dress code, smokers, or scooters to worry about.