Warning --- Car rental speeding fines

[LP Dad]

I was in Cadiz last month and rented a car for the day to go to Gibraltar. (There were no cruise excursions and no timely public transit links.)

 

I got a rate of about 26 EUR for the day. There was a "railway station pickup surcharge" of 19 EUR, but that's where the car rental office was, so OK.

 

A few weeks ago, the car rental company sent two emails notifying me of photo-radar speeding charges: 91 kmh in an 80 zone (highway) and 75 kmh in a 60 zone (off-ramp). This is, respectively, 6 and 9 miles per hour over the speed limit. Each charge had a fine of 100 EUR, although the fine would be halved if I paid within 72 hours. I go to Spain at least once a year, and obviously don't want any problems driving, so I paid them. After all, the interest on Spain's national debt is over 2000 USD per second, and we all need to do our share.

 

Spain's transport ministry adds 10 EUR as a fee, and VAT on the total, so the fines were 62.10 EUR each.

 

The car rental company charged 81 EUR inclusive as an administrative surcharge. This is waived if you take "Fines Appeal Waivers Insurance", and the fact that there is such a thing tells you all you need to know.

 

So my little car rental cost 26+19+62+62+81: 250 EUR. At least it's a nice, round number. And I got frequent-flyer points with my credit card.

 

It's their country, and their rules. And an expensive lesson for me.

 

LPD

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John Bull]

At least you can console yourself that, unlike most motorways in Spain,  there was no toll on this one from Cadiz to Algeciras.

That's because it was financed by a grant from the European Union, or more accurately from the big 4 contributors -  Germany, France, the UK and Italy.

You're welcome, no need to thank me personally. 

 

That motorway which we paid for was virtually empty when I used it a few years ago, yet the unsubsidised motorways in the UK are overloaded with traffic and being up-graded at vast expense to the UK tax-payer. 

That's just one little clue as to why the UK is ending its membership of this expensive club. 

Roll on 31st January 

 

JB 

 

[VMax1700]

4 hours ago, LP Dad said:

91 kmh in an 80 zone (highway) and 75 kmh in a 60 zone (off-ramp). This is, respectively, 6 and 9 miles per hour over the speed limit

There is an unofficial'allowance' of 10% over the limit before you receive a sanction (sanción).  Doesn't Toronto use kph? It is nothing to do with miles per hour (though you were still substantially over the speed limit on the off ramp).  The fines can be up to 600 euro depending on how much over the speed limit you were doing.

The administration charges for processing the sanción is noted in the hire agreement.

Some additional motoring offences in Spain:

• Driving in high heels, flip-flops or barefoot: €200
• Driving shirtless: €200
• Throwing cigarette or trash out of the window: €200
• Wearing headphones while driving: €200
• Not having your licence with you: €10
• Driving with an expired licence: €200
• Double parking: €200

[Cienfuegos]

The fines are substantial, that's for sure.

 

Thanks for the report and warning.

[hkto]

Fines chart if anyone curious. 100€ is a start

 

[dogs4fun]

Yikes - fines are hefty! Won't be driving in Spain anytime soon but still good to know. Had no idea that one could be fined for driving in high heels or flip flops.

[wowzz]

On 12/15/2019 at 8:17 PM, VMax1700 said:

There is an unofficial'allowance' of 10% over the limit before you receive a sanction (sanción).  Doesn't Toronto use kph? It is nothing to do with miles per hour (though you were still substantially over the speed limit on the off ramp).  The fines can be up to 600 euro depending on how much over the speed limit you were doing.

The administration charges for processing the sanción is noted in the hire agreement.

Some additional motoring offences in Spain:

• Driving in high heels, flip-flops or barefoot: €200
• Driving shirtless: €200
• Throwing cigarette or trash out of the window: €200
• Wearing headphones while driving: €200
• Not having your licence with you: €10
• Driving with an expired licence: €200
• Double parking: €200

And the Spanish (as well as virtually everyone else) ignore them all!

 

[Host Bonjour]

On 12/15/2019 at 7:46 PM, hkto said:

Fines chart if anyone curious. 100€ is a start

 

 

I think they hold off on the muy grave designation too long; it gets muy grave, muy rapido. That's not even counting the points, I presume, one also gets on their license, which at a certain time would become moot. Who could afford to own a car after getting hit with a few muy graves? Nadie pudo/No one could. 

 

Then again, I come from the land of alternate side of the street parking, four days a week. That got expensive at times. 😩 (And they sometimes put big neon colord stickers on people's windows, which was just mean.)

 

Thanks for sharing your experience and sorry for your unfortunate experience. Just when you think you've heard the last bad surprise car rental story....this was a tough one. 

[hkto]

Well in Toronto speeds in muy grave column (50 over limit) carry $10,000 fine, license suspension and car impoundment if caught. So 600€ fine is a bargain.

[Hlitner]

Yes, an expensive lesson.  We have driven, extensively, throughout Western Europe for many decades.  At one time we would simply put "the peddle to the metal" which little regard for speed limits.  But times have changed as European governments discovered the wonders of speed cameras which quickly pay for themselves and keep on paying.  Now, with the exception of some autobahns in Germany, I set the cruise control to the speed limit.  I would warn the OP (and others) that speed cameras have become too common throughout Europe and they are very unforgiving.  At least in the USA we can sometimes talk our way out of a ticket.  But cameras do not talk back...nor do they respond to tears.

 

Hank

 

[ollienbertsmum]

And be sure to keep your shirt on Hank!!  

[TMLAalum]

Related but not specifically to Spain- 2 tickets in the Aachen region of Germany for DH last month. Speed limit in municipalities is 50 kmh with very little warning prior. He looks great in the photos! So far no rental car add-on fee and the damages were 35 for one and 15 for the other, so not awful. We knew we were photo-bombed on the 1st but the 2nd was a surprise.

[Despegue]

On 12/16/2019 at 3:53 PM, dogs4fun said:

Yikes - fines are hefty! Won't be driving in Spain anytime soon but still good to know. Had no idea that one could be fined for driving in high heels or flip flops.

Driving in flip-flops or high heels is obviously unsafe and as a result, you are driving with inappropriate footwear.

I presume this is fined in any country that takes safe driving at heart.

Driving without a shirt is also unsafe as in case of an accident, the seatbelt will severely burn your torso. 

 

small note: Spain has a reputation that driving is unsafe and Spanish drivers are nutjobs. In reality, Spain has a better road safety record than the average EU, and better than the UK for example. Also, Spanish drivers have matured a lot over the last 15 years thanks to awareness classes in high-school, lots of fines, good roads etc. Which are NOT funded by the EU by the way.

 

 

[John Bull]

3 minutes ago, Despegue said:

Also, Spanish drivers have matured a lot over the last 15 years thanks to awareness classes in high-school, lots of fines, good roads etc. Which are NOT funded by the EU by the way.

 

 

 

 

Agreed that driving standards in Spain are well up-to-scratch.

Most of the Spanish autoroutes are funded by tolls -  but no toll on that A381 between Jerez de la Frontere and Cadiz  because that was built with EU money.

 

JB 

[wowzz]

50 minutes ago, Despegue said:

, Spain has a better road safety record than the average EU, and better than the UK for example.

Latest figures (2016) show that road traffic fatalities per 100,000 people for Spain is 4.1, versus 3.1 in the UK. The comparable figure in the US is 12.4 !

Fatalities per 100,000 vehicles is virtually identical for Spain and the UK, with Spain slightly worse, at 5.8 versus 5.7.

Theoretically you would think that Spain would have a much better record, given the many miles of modern motorways in Spain, compared to the congested,  elderly motorways in the UK.

Having lived in Spain for a number of years,  I would say that Spanish drivers are not bad, but they do lack the manners and courtesy you will find elsewhere.  For example,  it is rare that anyone will let you out of a side junction.

[ollienbertsmum]

1 hour ago, Despegue said:

Driving without a shirt is also unsafe as in case of an accident, the seatbelt will severely burn your torso. 

 

 

I always wondered what the point of that rule was.  Thanks.  

[tnt10]

Big brother is charging you to baby-sit!!

[Cienfuegos]

22 hours ago, ollienbertsmum said:

 

I always wondered what the point of that rule was.  Thanks.  

 

The airbag may also create powder burns, abrasion, etc on activation.

[wowzz]

Just to add to my previous post, one of the reasons that fatalities are much higher in Spain than the UK,  is that many Spanish drivers and passengers believe that seat belts are there to secure the shopping, not for personal safety. 

And as to the horrendous US fatality figures - well, I guess a combination of lack of sest belt use, and poor primary health  care. But, I'm happy to be corrected. 

[dogs4fun]

13 hours ago, wowzz said:

And as to the horrendous US fatality figures - well, I guess a combination of lack of sest belt use, and poor primary health  care. But, I'm happy to be corrected. 

Interesting read: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/12/13/why-the-u-s-trails-the-developed-world-on-traffic-deaths/

According to the article, the reasons why the US leads the developed world in auto fatalities:

- Americans drive more kilometers, with roughly 8,800 kilometers per capita, versus 4,300 in Canada, 7,000 in Germany and less than 1,700 in Japan.

- U.S. law does not require seat belt use in the back seat & although U.S.’s seat-belt-wearing rate has improved to 90 percent, peer nations are doing better.

- US drunk driving laws are also too lenient compared to peer nations and compared to WHO recommendations. 

- U.S. also lags world leaders in vehicle safety, falling short of the standards established by United Nations. Reported extensively, for example, about how the U.S (under Trump) has resisted adding safety features to vehicles that would help protect pedestrians in crashes, even as their fatality rates soar.

_ Finally, the U.S. fails to control driver speed as well as other nations. For speed control laws to work even moderately well, the WHO says urban street speeds must be strictly limited to about 31 miles per hour. In the U.S., localities often can’t adjust their speed limits but need state-level permission, another red flag for WHO. Worse, many localities don’t even start handing out tickets until drivers exceed the posted speed limit by more than 10 mph.

[Hlitner]

The driving stats for the USA are somewhat embarrassing.  But we (the citizens are partially to blame).  Consider our resistance to the use of speed cameras, stop light/sign cameras, etc.  I used to speed throughout Europe but now will usually heed the speed limits.  Why?  The cameras.  They are becoming more and more common, they are very effective, and they do seem to work at slowing cars (in most places).  In PA we do not use cameras on our major highways, but instead depend on our State Troopers who cost us about $100,000 a year per trooper.  And a good part of their job is simply monitoring traffic and writing speeding tickets.  We could easily (and cheaply) put up a few thousand speed cameras which would quickly pay for themselves, slow down the traffic, and free-up our highly trained State Troopers to deal with more important issues.   The reality is that Europe is far ahead of us with their speed enforcement and drunk driving laws.

 

Why don't we have speed cameras?  Because even the members of our own Legislative branch  like to speed :). or at least that is what one hears around our State Capital.  One of our previous governors even was known to tell his State Trooper driver to "go fast."

 

Hank

[John Bull]

I know this is a very old thread (can't remember how I happened upon it) but its well-worth bringing back to the top of the pile.

 

Here are a few personal experiences.

 

We're just back from Lanzarote (Spanish Canary Islands). 

Traffic speeds there are very leisurely, folk obey the limits, nobody's in a hurry.

And they're very courteous - they even let BMWs out of side-roads, unheard-of in the UK 😂

Like Hank, I used to put the hammer down on Spanish main road - but not in the past few years. 

 

Yes, speed cameras (and red-light cameras, bus lane cameras, etc) have multiplied in Europe and especially in the UK. Fixed cameras are totally ineffective against the locals, who know where they are - if a speeding local slows down for some unknown reason, it's best to do the same.

 

In some European countries its illegal not to disable speed camera alerts on your GPS.

 

In the UK, there's a tolerance of 10% plus 2mph.

Shortly after leaving a 40mph limit, I was flashed by a speed camera at 36mph in a 30mph limit - at five o'clock in the morning. Even the birds were still in the land of nod!!

A police officer would have taken no notice, but speed cameras don't use discretion. 

As is common in the UK with minor traffic offences, instead of a fine and points/de-merits/call-them-what you-will on my licence I was offered a "driver awareness course", an afternoon with other naughty boys being lectured on road safety. Actually cost a little more than a fine, but no "conviction" or points on my licence.

 

A couple of experiences in the USA.....

I was amazed to be pulled by a Texas Highway Patrol, who blazed across the meridian in a cloud of dust to pull me out of a line of cars all doing the same speed & certainly not significantly over the limit.

A stern talking-to from him & a lot of yes sir, no sir from me, and he just noted the licence plate - so the rest of my time crossing Texas was at a very leisurely pace.

Why'd he pull me from a line? Might be something to do with it being a California-registered red Mustang convertible 🙄.

On another road-trip I was caught by a hand-held camera in Maryland. I was driving way over the local limit, even over the limits for the previous 20 miles. I rightly expected him to hit me with a large fine, but when I produced my UK driving licence he just gently reminded me to slow down & sent me on my way with a cheery "enjoy your vacation" . What a nice man 🙂, I guess the paperwork wouldn't have been worth the effort. I did wonder whether the same thing would work if I could somehow get a Chinese licence to produce in the UK 🤣

 

Paying road tolls pretty-well everywhere is getting a lot more difficult for visitors as toll booths are being replaced by on-line payments and go-boxes.

Just to cross Houston and to use Boston's tunnels we had to rely on our GPS to guide us along traffic-clogged toll-free roads because figuring what & how to pay on an I-Pad was too complicated for us old fogies.

Didn't save us when crossing Sydney Harbour bridge, where we'd expected to encounter a toll-booth. Fortunately this was the last day of our road-trip & we were returning the car. The rental agency helped us to pay by phone, avoiding a doubling of the fee and the agency's heavy handling fee as mentioned in previous posts.

 

Are "automatic number-plate recognition"(ANPR) cameras in use in North America or mainland Europe?

In the UK they're used in police cars - they read the plates of passing vehicles - dozens of plates read in the blink of an eye - and immediately alert the crew to vehicles which are un-taxed, un-insured, no annual safety certificate, stolen vehicles, vehicles related to dis-qualified drivers or tagged as involved in drugs & other crimes, etc.

Ditto fixed road cameras, which alert police control-rooms - they can track suspicious vehicles across the country, which can then be intercepted.

Also used for fixed traffic cameras - no admin staff needed, it probably even licks the stamp for the violation notification letter.

And for parking-lots and for ferries & such - when we park at an airport we pre-book and the barrier opens when it reads our plate.

All a bit big-brother but very clever, very convenient, and a great boon for law & order. 

 

JB 🙂