So If US Ports Don't Open...

[John&LaLa]

9 hours ago, alfaeric said:

We were on the Adventure repo from Miami to San Juan and from San Juan to Bayonne- both times we stopped in St Maarten.  

 

The only time I know of that the foreign port override has happened was an emergency- like when San Juan port closed or when the ships moved people from San Juan after Maria.

 

I didn't think St Maarten qualified as a distant port.

[Biker19]

4 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I didn't think St Maarten qualified as a distant port.

It doesn't.

[Arzeena]

On 6/23/2020 at 4:12 PM, twangster said:

 

Pretty rare.  The occasional repo like when Adventure went to Bayonne or Freedom went to San Juan.  

 

I remember the guy who booked that cruise from Florida but didn't know it was a repo.  He was mad when the cruise ended in San Juan and he had to buy a plane ticket home.  

Similar story:  The famous Matching Couple were on the Explorer Repo out of Bayonne with similar story: didn't know it was a Repo, had a UHaul full of luggage, had to take that on a plane and so on.

[John&LaLa]

28 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

It doesn't.

 

Typically one of the ABC's

[Charles4515]

Good luck with that.  No ships are sailing from the US for at least 3 months and they aren't going to move any to Nassau.  Period.  If they did, and someone onboard tested positive, have fun being locked up in the cabin until they found somewhere to go.  Which is one of many reasons they aren't sailing and won't for a while.

Here is what they are thinking in Nassau.

“A top executive at Nassau’s cruise port warned local businesses that when cruise ships return, their passengers would likely be kept from “independently wandering” around the area.

He also made it clear he did not believe it likely that ships would return to Nassau before next year.”


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[twangster]

10 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

Typically one of the ABC's

 

The act specifically calls out the ABCs and in a roundabout way defines them as "distant foreign ports".

 

"Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e.,Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao " 

 

A non-coastwise-qualified vessel may not transport passengers between U.S. coastwise ports by way of a “nearby foreign port.”7 A “nearby foreign port” is any foreign port in:

 

• North America
• Central America
• The Bermuda Islands
• The West Indies
• EXCEPTION: Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao

7 19 C.F.R. § 4.80a(b)(2).

 

 

Transportation between U.S. points via a “distant foreign port”

 

• A “distant foreign port” is any foreign port that is not defined as a “nearby foreign port.”38 A “nearby foreign port” is defined as any foreign port in North or Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (except the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao).
• Transportation of passengers on a voyage to one or more coastwise ports and a “distant foreign port” or ports (whether or not the voyage includes a nearby foreign port or ports) and the passenger disembarks at a coastwise port other than the port of embarkation, provided the passenger has proceeded with the vessel to a “distant foreign port.”39

• EXAMPLE: A non-coastwise-qualified vessel that embarks passengers at a U.S. port and then transports them to Aruba, then proceeds to Key West where the passengers disembark does not violate the PVSA. A port in Aruba is a “distant foreign port”.40

If they can make it to a port that is in South America that would qualify as well.  There are cases where Cartagena, Columbia is used for this purpose such as Panama Canal sailings that aren't closed loop.

 

The act is an interesting read and CBP includes examples:

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Sep/PVSA-ICP.pdf

 

[bouhunter]

1 hour ago, Arzeena said:

Similar story:  The famous Matching Couple were on the Explorer Repo out of Bayonne with similar story: didn't know it was a Repo, had a UHaul full of luggage, had to take that on a plane and so on.

Is that the couple that wears the really loud crazy matching clothing and hats?  We've always called them "The Hat People" 🙂

 

[alfaeric]

2 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I didn't think St Maarten qualified as a distant port.

While I didn't know about the exception, I figured it qualified as a distant port to Miami and New York.  Which very much does for either of those ports.

[John&LaLa]

6 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

While I didn't know about the exception, I figured it qualified as a distant port to Miami and New York.  Which very much does for either of those ports.

 

It's great to have an opinion, unfortunately the law defines the West Indies as a 'nearby' port.  Sorry

[twangster]

31 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

While I didn't know about the exception, I figured it qualified as a distant port to Miami and New York.  Which very much does for either of those ports.

 

The PVSA was passed as an act of congress in 1886.  It's protectionist legislation.  They didn't want ships coming to America and dominating over American ships carrying passengers between US cities.   They weren't thinking about modern cruises ships in 1886.  

 

They didn't want to make it easy for a foreign ship doing a transatlantic from Europe to NYC then carrying new passengers from New York to anywhere in the U.S. like Miami.  If you desired to sail from NYC to Miami you would have to find an American ship for that journey.  That was the point of the law.

 

Otherwise a foreign ship could arrive, hang around for a few years competing with American shipping interests or even engage in price wars and drive American companies into ruin.  It wasn't supposed to be easy to get around.    

Edited June 24, 2020 by twangster

[alfaeric]

12 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

It's great to have an opinion, unfortunately the law defines the West Indies as a 'nearby' port.  Sorry

So you are suggesting that the West Indies don't count for a foreign port for Miami???  Even though that's as far as the Oasis ships travel from Miami?  

Same for New York?   When the farthest they go is Nassau?  

[alfaeric]

11 hours ago, twangster said:

 

The PVSA was passed as an act of congress in 1886.  It's protectionist legislation.  They didn't want ships coming to America and dominating over American ships carrying passengers between US cities.   They weren't thinking about modern cruises ships in 1886.  

 

They didn't want to make it easy for a foreign ship doing a transatlantic from Europe to NYC then carrying new passengers from New York to anywhere in the U.S. like Miami.  If you desired to sail from NYC to Miami you would have to find an American ship for that journey.  That was the point of the law.

 

Otherwise a foreign ship could arrive, hang around for a few years competing with American shipping interests or even engage in price wars and drive American companies into ruin.  It wasn't supposed to be easy to get around.    

Yes, I know.  I was making the reference from Miami and New York, thinking that they were distant from St Maarten- which they are, since that's as far as many Miami cruises go, and way farther than New York cruises go.

 

But keep lecturing me, I appreciate that.  Just pointing out the exception was good enough.

 

Next time I'm corrected, I won't bother pointing out my line of thinking.,...

Edited June 25, 2020 by alfaeric

[ipeeinthepool]

7 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Yes, I know.  I was making the reference from Miami and New York, thinking that they were distant from St Maarten- which they are, since that's as far as many Miami cruises go, and way farther than New York cruises go.

 

But keep lecturing me, I appreciate that.  Just pointing out the exception was good enough.

 

Next time I'm corrected, I won't bother pointing out my line of thinking.,...

 

Wow, I'm sorry you're so upset.  I can see you're bothered by not beating the Buckeyes for many years.

[John&LaLa]

39 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Yes, I know.  I was making the reference from Miami and New York, thinking that they were distant from St Maarten- which they are, since that's as far as many Miami cruises go, and way farther than New York cruises go.

 

But keep lecturing me, I appreciate that.  Just pointing out the exception was good enough.

 

Next time I'm corrected, I won't bother pointing out my line of thinking.,...

 

Like I said, you are allowed an opinion😉

[bouhunter]

These discussions about PVSA and foreign ports are too funny.  They are such minor issues, if not completely irrelevant, when it comes to cruising starting back up.

 

Go Bucks!  🙂

 

[John&LaLa]

44 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

So you are suggesting that the West Indies don't count for a foreign port for Miami???  Even though that's as far as the Oasis ships travel from Miami?  

Same for New York?   When the farthest they go is Nassau?  

 

Not a distant one. 

 

I hate to bring more bad news, but I think NY/NJ ships go way further south than Nassau. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by John&LaLa

[gatour]

48 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

So you are suggesting that the West Indies don't count for a foreign port for Miami???  Even though that's as far as the Oasis ships travel from Miami?  

Same for New York?   When the farthest they go is Nassau?  

Those are round trips.  Starting in Miami and ending Miami.  They don't have to go to a distant foreign port.  They just have to go to a port.  Nassau, St Marten, St Kitts etc qualifies for this type of round trip cruises.

 

One of things being discussed is if the cruise starts in Miami and ends in New York.  Those type of cruises require a stop at a distant foreign port,  Nassau, St Marten, St Kits etc do not qualify as distant foreign port in the eyes of the PVSA.  The ABC's and Cartegena do qualify.

 

The exception is a cruise starting in someplace like Miami and ending in San Juan.  There is an exception for this type of cruise where it doesn't have to stop in a distant foreign port.

[Iamcruzin]

36 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

Not a distant one. 

 

I hate to bring more bad news, but I think NY/NJ ships go way further south than Nassau. 

You don't have to think. It's a fact. Did many repos from NY on other lines and last year on Anthem we went to St Maarten and San Juan.😉

[twangster]

Right now the Governor of NY would have little issue if people wanted to sail from NYC to Miami.  People sailing from Miami to NYC is another matter.  🤣🤣🤣

 

Truth be told our government could help the cruise industry when it's time to start sailing again by temporarily easing the PVSA.  The PVSA contains some very specific exceptions such as:

 

The PVSA does not apply to:

Canadian Vessels:

• Holding a permit issued by the Secretary of the Department of Transportation may transport passengers between Rochester, New York and Alexandria Bay, New York.

Specific exemptions between Seattle and Southeast Alaska or between specific East coast cities would create jobs and help the economy of regions like Alaska or the East coast.  It would help to keep Americans spending vacation dollars within America.  It would protect America interests which is what the PVSA is there for in the first place.

[Charles4515]

Right now the Governor of NY would have little issue if people wanted to sail from NYC to Miami.  People sailing from Miami to NYC is another matter.  [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]   Truth be told our government could help the cruise industry when it's time to start sailing again by temporarily easing the PVSA.  The PVSA contains some very specific exceptions such as:

 

The PVSA does not apply to:

Canadian Vessels:

 

 

• Holding a permit issued by the Secretary of the Department of Transportation may transport passengers between Rochester, New York and Alexandria Bay, New York.

Specific exemptions between Seattle and Southeast Alaska or between specific East coast cities would create jobs and help the economy of regions like Alaska or the East coast.  It would help to keep Americans spending vacation dollars within America.  It would protect America interests which is what the PVSA is there for in the first place.

  By our government that would mean Congress. Good luck with that....

 

I don’t think it would be much help to the cruise industry. If it would help why has the cruise industry not asked for the PVSA to be changed? Probably because the cruise lines fly flags of connivence to avoid US laws and they want to keep the status quo.

 

I don’t see who would benefit now except a few cruisers who would book those sailings. Seems selfish to ask for me exceptions without considering the big picture. I would like to see changes but I am sure the cruise lines would oppose the changes I would like. I would make the lines more accountable and follow US labor regulations.

 

 

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[Arzeena]

17 hours ago, bouhunter said:

Is that the couple that wears the really loud crazy matching clothing and hats?  We've always called them "The Hat People" 🙂

 

A very elderly couple at that time. Their outfits were dazzling and very coordinated. Morning, afternoon, evening.......it was very entertaining to watch them. They were very social and talked to people all the time.

I think the hat people could be a different one and then there the matching Hawaiian shirt couple. I have seen quite a few.

Sorry for not sticking to the subject of the thread.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Arzeena

[mpk]

On 6/22/2020 at 11:49 PM, csnarpy said:

sorry if this has been said or talked about before but as a Canadian and really not familiar with US colony rules,  I'm wondering about San Juan.

 

So the US is a colony now?  🙂

[John&LaLa]

2 hours ago, mpk said:

 

So the US is a colony now?  🙂

 

I believe he was referring to PR as a US colony.

 

I kind of like it