Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[TeeRick]

11 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

I know someone with Merck that told me about something like this and he said the key will be to use the treatment early.

Yeah by the time you realize you have the virus (by testing or symptoms) it has already entered your cells.  Too late.

Edited April 17, 2021 by TeeRick

[4774Papa]

3 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Yeah by the time you realize you have the virus (by testing or symptoms) it gas already entered your cells.  Too late.

My friend at Merck explained that yes you are infected, but the new treatment is designed to significantly mitigate the severity of the infection.

[Ken the cruiser]

8 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

I know someone with Merck that told me about something like this and he said the key will be to use the treatment early.

Maybe like when you're on a cruise and tested negative when you first got on the ship and later tested positive? So many potentials if it gets approved. 😉

[Homosassa]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OK. Someone needs to explain this miracle nasal treatment because the way I read it, it's sound like a BIG deal if you happen to test positive for COVID, like when you're on a cruise ship. Am I overreaching here?

 

Patients with a self-administered nasal spray application found to have reduced SARS-CoV-2 log viral load by more than 95% in infected participants within 24 hours of treatment, and by more than 99% in 72 hours

Just reading this promotional blurb, my opinion is that the nasal spray has a long way to go before being approved  for an EUA in the US and perhaps elsewhere.

 

There is very little clinical data to evaluate. A randomized double blind study in 79 subjects does means that not everyone in the trial received the actual spray (there was probably a saline spray control group). 

 

While nitrous oxide may be in wide medical use, there would need to be more data about use in a large population that may have another underlying medical conditions where use of the NO would be contraindicated.

[TeeRick]

4 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

My friend at Merck explained that yes you are infected, but the new treatment is designed to significantly mitigate the severity of the infection.

Unfortunately Merck has had very recent setbacks on its COVID drugs in the clinic, including an oral antiviral drug.

 

https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/merck-cans-one-covid-19-drug-scraps-a-clinical-trial-another

[cruise kitty]

7 hours ago, Crazy planning mom said:

Are you getting the booster in 4 months as part of the trial or is that when they expect to start giving it to regular people?

 

As part of the trial... right now we are slated to go for the full two years (so about 18 more months) but that could change :)

[TeeRick]

11 minutes ago, cruise kitty said:

 

As part of the trial... right now we are slated to go for the full two years (so about 18 more months) but that could change 🙂

So that probably includes a free medical check up every time you go in so that is a good side benefit lasting two years.😀

[nocl]

15 hours ago, D C said:

In all fairness, he did say they MAY be required and there was a lot they still needed to learn. So studies make sense. 

 

A variant booster seems logical if we start seeing severe illness and death among the vaccinated because of them. 

In the past he said may.  A couple of days ago in an interview on CNBC it was changed to probably.  

 

Pretty clear that is what they are thinking since they are now doing a phase 1/2 trial with a booster shot with the time ranging from 6 to 12 months from the original immunization. (I posted the link to the trial in response to an earlier message).  You would not be doing a trial in that time range unless you expected that would be the timing needed for the booster.

 

They are running the trial with the original vaccine so it is not a booster for variants.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

15 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Ken, I have never heard of this approach until you posted it.  The drug seems to be a nasal spray that releases NO (Nitric Oxide).  There are other nutritional supplements and drugs that have been used for years to release your natural NO in your body.  See link below.  This approach releases it in your nose and upper respiratory tract to reduce viral load amount during a viral infection as they claim from their phase 2 study.  So it is non-specific in that it does not target any one viral protein or function, but rather just kills the whole virus.  My guess is that it might work against other viruses in your respiratory track (other cold viruses?  Influenza?) but probably needs to work before it gets into the lungs.  I would think that even if it wipes out 99% of your virus after two days, some of the virus along the way has already entered some of your susceptible cells through the ACE2 receptor.  Once that happens it replicates inside the cell in an exponential way.  It is beyond the reach of NO.  The same for the other 1% of the virus that survives.

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/nitric-oxide-supplements

I would expect that it would not be of much benefit against the actual illness.  Might be useful if one is diagnosed and is quarantining at home to reduce viral shedding to protect family members.

[nocl]

15 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Not sure if you get the daily feed from Medscape.  Today a rather informative article was posted on the very miniscule amount of breakthrough cases requiring hospitalization after full vaccination. There were a number of comments from Dr. Bill Gruber, Pfizer's Sr VP of Clinical Research in the article with good information on how Pfizer is approaching variants including sequencing of breakthrough cases.

 

 

From the article:

"As of April 12, South Carolina's health department said it had identified 155 cases of breakthrough infection, which is less than 0.02% of about 950,500 people in the state who have completed their vaccination course. That's a similar rate to that reported in Washington state, where, as of March 30, 102 breakthrough cases were reported out of more than 1 million fully vaccinated people. Eight people, or 0.0008% of those fully vaccinated, were hospitalized. Oregon's experience is also similar, with about 0.02% of 700,000 fully vaccinated Oregonians experiencing breakthrough infections so far. Three out of those 168 people died."

 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/949381?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=370300SV&impID=3316056&faf=1#vp_1

While that data is useful, a more useful comparison would be to take the percentage population of fully vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated population and compare the infection numbers for both groups.  That would give you the reduction in infection rates after vaccination.  A low breakthrough rate is not as meaningful if there is a low background infection rate.

[Ken the cruiser]

7 hours ago, nocl said:

I would expect that it would not be of much benefit against the actual illness.  Might be useful if one is diagnosed and is quarantining at home to reduce viral shedding to protect family members.

Or maybe on a cruise ship, if one is first diagnosed negative just prior to embarking and then later tests positive while on the cruise? 🤔

[TeeRick]

8 hours ago, nocl said:

While that data is useful, a more useful comparison would be to take the percentage population of fully vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated population and compare the infection numbers for both groups.  That would give you the reduction in infection rates after vaccination.  A low breakthrough rate is not as meaningful if there is a low background infection rate.

Yes.  I was more interested in the comments from the senior VP of clinical at Pfizer giving us some behind the scenes info on their ongoing vaccine program.

[TeeRick]

Here is an interesting general article again from the NY Times news feed.  It is a COVID article so free but you might need to sign up with your email or use incognito mode.  Anyway it is everything specifically about women and COVID vaccines.  Some overall very good information about a number of things in addition to the clotting side effect.  

 

I have been trying to find a reference on the number of women 18-55 that have received the J&J vaccine out of the 8 million doses administered in the US since they are the at-risk group.  No luck so far.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/14/well/live/women-covid-19-vaccine.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210418&instance_id=29390&nl=the-morning&regi_id=121450033&segment_id=55820&te=1&user_id=8259b050a84d722b46d85f64ae857bb0

[mimbecky]

Regarding possible booster....

I had Moderna and was one who had fever (100.9) and just about every other side effect with the second vaccine. Curious if a booster would give even worse side effects with this third shot than the second.  🤢

Any educated guesses?

Thanks,

Miriam

[Homosassa]

48 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

 

 

I have been trying to find a reference on the number of women 18-55 that have received the J&J vaccine out of the 8 million doses administered in the US since they are the at-risk group.  No luck so far.

 

 

The subset may need to be even smaller if the problem is linked to the permanent changes in a women's immune system due to being pregnant and hosting a foreign object for any length of time (I agree with Nocl's previously post about pregnancy).

 

There may also be  problem may also be a woman's willingness to reveal that there was a pregnancy (full term or earlier termination because of miscarriage or choice).

[terrydtx]

16 minutes ago, mimbecky said:

Regarding possible booster....

I had Moderna and was one who had fever (100.9) and just about every other side effect with the second vaccine. Curious if a booster would give even worse side effects with this third shot than the second.  🤢

Any educated guesses?

Thanks,

Miriam

I am not surprised that booster shots every year may be needed, just like we do with the flu every year. My wife and I had both Pfizer shots and the second one gave us hardly any side effects other than being a little tired the first night. Now our daughter who also had the Pfizer shots was sick for 2 days, but she was just ending a chemo treatment for breast cancer and her immune system was severely taxed by the chemo.

Edited April 18, 2021 by terrydtx

[TeeRick]

3 hours ago, mimbecky said:

Regarding possible booster....

I had Moderna and was one who had fever (100.9) and just about every other side effect with the second vaccine. Curious if a booster would give even worse side effects with this third shot than the second.  🤢

Any educated guesses?

Thanks,

Miriam

It seems that it is highly variable so really no good way to guess.  Sorry.

[cangelmd]

6 hours ago, mimbecky said:

Regarding possible booster....

I had Moderna and was one who had fever (100.9) and just about every other side effect with the second vaccine. Curious if a booster would give even worse side effects with this third shot than the second.  🤢

Any educated guesses?

Thanks,

Miriam

This is barely an educated speculation, but most of the people I know who had Covid, then both vaccine shots, had the worst reaction with the first shot - second shot (third exposure for them) was less severe. But it is very subjective anfvcomplicated by the fact people are looking hard for symptoms.

[Arizona Wildcat]

One NBC this morning President Macron stated that then EU is working on a Covid passport and had discussed it with the US.  The plan stated was either a passport or a negative PCR test each time on crossed a border.  Not clear within the EU what they are planning as of today.  Macron stated the hoped for international travel to resume in May depending on the availability of vaccines.  He also reiterated that France would not send vaccines to other countries until all French citizens were offered vaccine. 

[TeeRick]

22 hours ago, terrydtx said:

I am not surprised that booster shots every year may be needed, just like we do with the flu every year. My wife and I had both Pfizer shots and the second one gave us hardly any side effects other than being a little tired the first night. Now our daughter who also had the Pfizer shots was sick for 2 days, but she was just ending a chemo treatment for breast cancer and her immune system was severely taxed by the chemo.

So sorry to hear about your daughter.  I hope she fully recovers!

[TeeRick]

16 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

One NBC this morning President Macron stated that then EU is working on a Covid passport and had discussed it with the US.  The plan stated was either a passport or a negative PCR test each time on crossed a border.  Not clear within the EU what they are planning as of today.  Macron stated the hoped for international travel to resume in May depending on the availability of vaccines.  He also reiterated that France would not send vaccines to other countries until all French citizens were offered vaccine. 

So back to travel and cruising.  I guess a vaccine passport required by the EU or individual EU countries, or the UK, will come with a set of conditions as to what types are acceptable for entry into their countries.  I assume the US will not take this step.  It was hard enough to get people to wear a simple mask.  So my worry as a US citizen wanting to travel to an EU country and cruise is can I get an acceptable vaccine passport in the US?  Will a CDC card do?  Or do I need an electronic record?  If so will a private company that I have to pay for my record be acceptable to travel to the EU?  

[happy cruzer]

23 hours ago, mimbecky said:

Regarding possible booster....

I had Moderna and was one who had fever (100.9) and just about every other side effect with the second vaccine. Curious if a booster would give even worse side effects with this third shot than the second.  🤢

Any educated guesses?

Thanks,

Miriam

You are not alone.  Had the same side effects (at one point was close to calling 911) and have the same concern. 

[4774Papa]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

So back to travel and cruising.  I guess a vaccine passport required by the EU or individual EU countries, or the UK, will come with a set of conditions as to what types are acceptable for entry into their countries.  I assume the US will not take this step.  It was hard enough to get people to wear a simple mask.  So my worry as a US citizen wanting to travel to an EU country and cruise is can I get an acceptable vaccine passport in the US?  Will a CDC card do?  Or do I need an electronic record?  If so will a private company that I have to pay for my record be acceptable to travel to the EU?  

TeeRick,

We are looking at going to Iceland this Summer and still not sure that our Vaccine cards are enough proof for Iceland.  

[TeeRick]

It seems that the Pharma companies are back to not playing in the same sand box when it comes to their COVID vaccines.  J&J casting doubts about mRNA vaccines.  U Oxford has done the same recently.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/health/johnson-vaccine-blood-clots-statement/index.html

 

And more about the rare blood clots and COVID vaccines from a trusted publication (Nature).

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00998-w

 

[mayleeman]

@TeeRick Sounds like J&J intentionally are trying to confuse people by using similar sounding words to hide the clotting issue. As the article you cited pointed out, there have been many reports of thromobocytopenia associated with Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. That is the condition of severe platelet loss, which has effects the opposite of clotting.

 

The article seems wrong in stating as a certainty that the CDC determined in February there is no evidence the condition is related to those vaccines. That may have been a tentative conclusion. I found one study reported in late March (I think) that noted that although the overall incidence is similar to the general population, the patients in that study overwhelmingly had the condition arise after the first shot. They said they would expect, if it were unrelated, the distribution to be relatively equal between the first and second shots. But it was a small study, several dizen at most, and there have been only about 100 total (IIRC). Another report said there has been only one fatality so far (a Florida doctor). Apparently 80% of cases have been women from 25 to 50, and they are uncertain if there were any hidden underlying issues in common.

 

I only know about this because of a huge amount of reading I did on the weekend after running into one of our neighbors whose daughter is in critical condition with a platelet count of 3 (<10,000 is considered a medical emergency). Major swelling and bruising just by being touched. She had the first Moderna shot @ 10 days before. She has had 3 platelet transfusions, and it is uncertain how she will fare and what the long-term consequences will be.

 

I was reading dozens of sources (trying to cill out crap like the NY Post!) without noting specific references, unfortuately, so I can't cite specifically to the studies I looked at. I just think that the medical profession should be cautious about concluding that there is no relationship simply by using statistical analysis of comparing the overall incidence to the extremely small group of these cases.

Edited April 19, 2021 by mayleeman