Restarting will be harder for HAL than other lines, writer argues

[DFD1]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Maybe it's just because I have always sailed with a lot of different lines, but I have never quite understood the "loyalist" HAL culture. It seems to me like people whinge more on this particular board about what things used to be like, yet will insist that HAL is still better than any other line out there (often without having sailed other lines in a good long while...). It's hard for my logical mind to reconcile.

 

Maybe I am just a strange mixture -- someone who picks itinerary over ship, yet still have definite preferences for certain things that are ship-related (mainly size).  I guess the two things go hand-in-hand to an extent. Smaller ships go to more interesting places. I am not interested in the Caribbean, Alaska, or Mexico.  I feel having mostly bigger ships will limit HAL's longer itineraries, just when I am approaching the age/stage in life where I might have been able to start doing some of them.

 

But in sailing many lines, including HAL's competitors Princess and Celebrity, over the years, I have not found one line to be significantly better in all areas by so much that I would not sail other lines. And even when I have been a very "loyal' patron of a line through many years, I will cut my losses when/if the line doesn't deliver what I look for any more -- for example Princess. One of the first lines I sailed with was Sitmar, which later became part of Princess, so up until my last cruise (2017) I had sailed with them for 40 or so years, off and on. But no more -- completely turned off by their large new class of ships.

 

 

You make a well thought-out case for using your head instead of your heart when buying a cruise. Thanks for an interesting and thought-provoking post.

[voyageur9]

From a strategic point of view; CCL has a number of brands and thus options. The corporation is currently in a self-induced coma in life-support mode. Borrowing billions to survive and attempting to limit the running costs of hugely expensive assets (ships) to a minimum.

 

Returning CCL to financial health will require focusing initially on plucking the low-hanging fruit. (Apologies for the mixed metaphor.) And that low-hanging fruit will likely be short cruises aimed at the healthiest segment of the market and therefore those least likely to make headlines with multiple  deaths or as a plague ship.

 

Given HAL's reputation (even if it's exaggerated) as a retirement home afloat with a demographic that is both significantly older and far more likely to have pre-existing conditions and/or compromised immune systems, it seems unlikely (to me at least) that refloating HAL will be a priority.

 

On the contrary. Dumping small ships and keeping those which could (easily) be re-branded to other CCL lines strikes me as strategically wise.

 

 

[iancal]

We have never seen much difference between the mass market lines.  Especially HAL, Princess, and Celebrity.  We have had excellent service each of these cruise lines with very little, if any, differentiation.

 

We do see differences between ships.  We have always selected on the basis of itinerary, ship, price.  When and if we return to cruising this is how we select.  The logo on the funnel is somewhat meaningless to us.

 

Loyal to any one cruise line...never.  There has been far too much change in the marketplace and the offerings for us to be loyal to one brand.

 

I believe that the cruise lines are only at the beginning of this situation from a financial perspective.  I believe that there will be many more changes between now and when cruising gets underway, and again 6-12 months after cruising has resumed.  Who really knows what the end state will look like for any of the cruise lines.

Edited July 22, 2020 by iancal

[tunafish]

While being in the 40s, we are upset HAL sold its small ships. Lots of good memories and we really loved the convenience of a small vessel. Less walking - more doing. Since the change in Tamarind concept the appeal of larger ships completely gone and is simply not there, but well... it is what it is.

The bet for short cruises to nowhere as a new marketing strategy seems odd to me personally. I really also do not know anyone who really prefer those 3-4-5 day sailing to practically nowhere. it is too short, too much hassle for very little time off... and we live in Florida. I can not imagine to fly anywhere to take a 4 day cruise with one port. We were always driven by destination and new places. I really hope it is passenger assumption and not the companies' to continue with this "ship is destination" concept across the industry. Like restaurants thought that you can sub the experience of eating out with to-go concept. However, after trying this even from the restaurants we frequent a lot, the value for us is just not there. you eat soggy and stale food from the plastic container in your car... for a lot of money. Tried it 4-5 times out of desperation and missing going out... thank you but no thank you. Cruising was attractive for a tight package of various services: sea, food, service, activities, price... remove some things and the attractiveness would be gone and people would naturally start looking at other options.

[UPNYGuy]

10 hours ago, iancal said:

We have never seen much difference between the mass market lines.  Especially HAL, Princess, and Celebrity.  We have had excellent service each of these cruise lines with very little, if any, differentiation.

 

We do see differences between ships.  We have always selected on the basis of itinerary, ship, price.  When and if we return to cruising this is how we select.  The logo on the funnel is somewhat meaningless to us.

 

Loyal to any one cruise line...never.  There has been far too much change in the marketplace and the offerings for us to be loyal to one brand.

 

I believe that the cruise lines are only at the beginning of this situation from a financial perspective.  I believe that there will be many more changes between now and when cruising gets underway, and again 6-12 months after cruising has resumed.  Who really knows what the end state will look like for any of the cruise lines.

agree 100%. DW and I have sailed on HAL, NCL, MSC, RC, Carnival, and Oceania. I would rate HAL no better than the others. They are mass market. Incidentally, I have had some of the worst experiences on HAL cruises when compared to the others. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[UPNYGuy]

1 hour ago, tunafish said:

 I really hope it is passenger assumption and not the companies' to continue with this "ship is destination" concept across the industry .

DW and I tend to treat the ship as a floating timeshare when we go. We rarely get off any more. And when we do, it is for a couple hours. My wife spends time in the spa and thermal suite, and I spend time relaxing on the balcony relaxing. 
 

most very frequent mass-market cruisers are like this, and the cruise lines know this.  We used to prefer the smaller ships, but now look for certain amenities when we book. More often than not, they are found on mega ships. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[OmarOak]

Many different views.

 

We have cruised on HAL, Princess and Celebrity. If we cruise post pandemic it would almost certainly be on HAL and certainly not be on Princess. 

 

The Music Walk and the varied dining options make HAL far more to our liking than Princess which we found second rate in every way. 

[DeeDee Groff]

7 minutes ago, OmarOak said:

Many different views.

 

We have cruised on HAL, Princess and Celebrity. If we cruise post pandemic it would almost certainly be on HAL and certainly not be on Princess. 

 

The Music Walk and the varied dining options make HAL far more to our liking than Princess which we found second rate in every way. 

 

Agree with all your points, especially the bit about your finding Princess "second rate in every way," and I am at the Elite level in Captain's Circle.  The last time I cruised with Princess was in 2013, and I won't be booking another Princess cruise.

 

The last time I sailed on a Celebrity ship was in 2005, and the lack of security aboard was unsettling.

 

On most cruises I sail solo, and dollar for dollar, even given the single supplement, I find HAL gives me the best per diem value.  The attentiveness of the crew is an added bonus.

[Elsa Shores]

Key in my decision is "How will life on board change?"..if the CDC, publishes Health Guidelines For Cruises: like the EU did , it's possible that some of HAL's midship pools will be considered "inside pools" and disallowed.  (see Aaron Saunders Cruise Critic 7/2/20 article).  I expect and can live with all the other changes I can imagine (masks, food, etc.), but not being able to relax by or in the mid-ship pool with friends and/or a book is a "make or break" for me.....and aft pools are just too small to accommodate any number of passengers..  Carnival and/or Hal will likely publish some type of new guidelines before they extend their self imposed no-sail beyond 9/30. 

If the mid-ship pools are not available, I will likely cancel my near term bookings...    

[voyageur9]

Where cruise ships go to die. Sad.

 

But either the breakers' yards or third-tier lines seems the likely fate of all HAL's ships smaller than the Vistas. 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

21 hours ago, voyageur9 said:

From a strategic point of view; CCL has a number of brands and thus options. The corporation is currently in a self-induced coma in life-support mode. Borrowing billions to survive and attempting to limit the running costs of hugely expensive assets (ships) to a minimum.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the coma was self-induced. Did the cruise lines do things to make the situation worse, yes. But they did not cause the pandemic.

 

What they did is more akin to not wearing your seatbelt when a huge truck plows into you. They didn't cause the accident, but they certainly didn't make things better....

 

 

[KirkNC]

10 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

 

most very frequent mass-market cruisers are like this, and the cruise lines know this.  We used to prefer the smaller ships, but now look for certain amenities when we book. More often than not, they are found on mega ships. 

I don't agree that most mass-market cruisers are like that (at least on HAL).  The vast majority of cruisers in our experience get off the ship and a significant number do shore excursions.  

[UPNYGuy]

52 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

I don't agree that most mass-market cruisers are like that (at least on HAL).  The vast majority of cruisers in our experience get off the ship and a significant number do shore excursions.  

I should have put HAL as the exception. We *do* get off the ship and venture around much more (and do excursions) when we are sailing in Europe, but to us the Caribbean and Alaska are ‘been there, done that’. We go there and use the ship more like a resort and book a vessel we prefer and itinerary tends to be secondary. In Europe it is the reverse for us (exception is the Med)

Edited July 23, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[cruisemom42]

26 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

I should have put HAL as the exception. We *do* get off the ship and venture around much more (and do excursions) when we are sailing in Europe, but to us the Caribbean and Alaska are ‘been there, done that’. We go there and use the ship more like a resort and book a vessel we prefer and itinerary tends to be secondary. In Europe it is the reverse for us (exception is the Med)

 

To me, this illustrates the "Tale of Two HALs":

 

• Some view HAL ships through the lens of shorter (less than 2 weeks) cruises from US ports and care more about the ship.

• Others view HAL ships from the perspective of longer voyages where the destination is the draw.

 

HAL's fleet until recently was more or less divided among larger and smaller vessels that could accommodate both groups. But what will happen now with the longer voyages?  It's concerning.

 

[UPNYGuy]

This is quite valid. DW and I enjoyed all of the HAL ships. However we found the older vessels (with exception of Ryndam) to be in disrepair when we sailed them. We typically sail for 12 days or less, and typically book a 7-10 day cruise. There are times we book a small ship for the destination immersion (Oceania), but when we sail in the Caribbean, Alaska, or the Med we book ship first,  itinerary second.  We haven’t been on a HAL ship in some time so I can’t judge latest offerings. Last one was Eurodam 2-3 years ago for Alaska. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by UPNYGuy
edited for being wordy

[iancal]

We are much more inclined to get off the ship on Med cruises than we are on Caribbean cruises.  On the former we may get off for the entire day.  On the latter we may get off for an hour or two, find a bar or coffee shop with good internet and sit for a while,

 

No matter cruise, we want some basic things.  We want the ship to be in good shape-especially our balcony cabin.  We want multiple dining venues.  We want to be able to have access to a dining venue in the evening  8PM onwards....especially if the MDR has a high noise level or poor service.    Don't care about room service other than coffee and fruit in the AM.   We want to be able to get loungers by or near the pool.  And we like some live music by the pool.   Plus somewhere on board to get a decent cup of coffee.

 

  Don;t care about libraries, lounges, stage shows, movies, bingo, etc, or on board clothing and jewelry stores..   Enrichment lectures very much appreciated as well as real port experts...not the ones who are essentially shills for ship excursions and so called cruise line approved stores. 

 

Our experience is that we can have a fabulous cruise and a very mediocre cruise on each and any of the mass market cruise lines because of their collective lack of consistency.  Luck of the draw. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by iancal

[UPNYGuy]

5 minutes ago, iancal said:

We are much more inclined to get off the ship on Med cruises than we are on Caribbean cruises.  On the former we may get off for the entire day.  On the latter we may get off for an hour or two, find a bar or coffee shop with good internet and sit for a while,

 

No matter cruise, we want some basic things.  We want the ship to be in good shape-especially our balcony cabin.  We want multiple dining venues.  We want to be able to have access to a dining venue in the evening  8PM onwards....especially if the MDR has a high noise level or poor service.    Don't care about room service other than coffee and fruit in the AM.   We want to be able to get loungers by or near the pool.  And we like some live music by the pool.   Plus somewhere on board to get a decent cup of coffee.

 

  Don;t care about libraries, lounges, stage shows, movies, bingo, etc, or on board clothing and jewelry stores..   Enrichment lectures very much appreciated as well as real port experts...not the ones who are essentially shills for ship excursions and so called cruise line approved stores. 

 

Our experience is that we can have a fabulous cruise and a very mediocre cruise on each and any of the mass market cruise lines because of their collective lack of consistency.  Luck of the draw. 

this is why we like MSC Seaside. I would be 100% ok if MSC had a fleet of 15 of these, and ONLY these, in differing GRT. This is easily my favorite ship design. 

[Aquahound]

3 hours ago, voyageur9 said:

Where cruise ships go to die. Sad.

 

But either the breakers' yards or third-tier lines seems the likely fate of all HAL's ships smaller than the Vistas. 

 

 

That's sad to watch.  I never would have thought Monarch and her sister, Sovereign, would go this soon.  They were beautiful ships.  😢

[cruisemom42]

51 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

this is why we like MSC Seaside. I would be 100% ok if MSC had a fleet of 15 of these, and ONLY these, in differing GRT. This is easily my favorite ship design. 

 

And for me, who chooses by itinerary, MSC Seaside would be a nightmare for a Med cruise. In summer 2021, for example, she sails 7-day cruises in an endless loop with people having the ability to embark/disembark at most every port along the way (meaning constantly changing passengers). Sounds more like a ferry than a cruise...

 

Also MSC's port times for Med ports are generally a good 2 hours or more shorter than most other lines. For example, they give you only 10 hours in Livorno,  instead of the 12-hours common on many lines. Considering that it takes 90 minutes, at least, to get to Florence, that makes for a very tight -- and likely disappointing -- day.  Or a 4pm sailing from Naples (only 8 hours!) in a port that literally brims over with possibilities, including an Amalfi Coast drive that would be difficult to fit in with that timing.

 

Also, very much NOT a fan of the Yacht Club, aka ship-within-a-ship concept.

 

 

[UPNYGuy]

32 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

And for me, who chooses by itinerary, MSC Seaside would be a nightmare for a Med cruise. In summer 2021, for example, she sails 7-day cruises in an endless loop with people having the ability to embark/disembark at most every port along the way (meaning constantly changing passengers). Sounds more like a ferry than a cruise...

 

Also MSC's port times for Med ports are generally a good 2 hours or more shorter than most other lines. For example, they give you only 10 hours in Livorno,  instead of the 12-hours common on many lines. Considering that it takes 90 minutes, at least, to get to Florence, that makes for a very tight -- and likely disappointing -- day.  Or a 4pm sailing from Naples (only 8 hours!) in a port that literally brims over with possibilities, including an Amalfi Coast drive that would be difficult to fit in with that timing.

 

Also, very much NOT a fan of the Yacht Club, aka ship-within-a-ship concept.

 

 

embarking and disembarking in every port is actually good for us. We actually do not give one iota to get to know the fellow pax on the ship. It is just myself and my wife 99% of the time. Plus we absolutely love the ship-within-a-ship vessels. We also sail in The Haven from time to time, as well as Yacht Club.   

[StLouisCruisers]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

And for me, who chooses by itinerary, MSC Seaside would be a nightmare for a Med cruise. In summer 2021, for example, she sails 7-day cruises in an endless loop with people having the ability to embark/disembark at most every port along the way (meaning constantly changing passengers). Sounds more like a ferry than a cruise...

 

Also MSC's port times for Med ports are generally a good 2 hours or more shorter than most other lines. For example, they give you only 10 hours in Livorno,  instead of the 12-hours common on many lines. Considering that it takes 90 minutes, at least, to get to Florence, that makes for a very tight -- and likely disappointing -- day.  Or a 4pm sailing from Naples (only 8 hours!) in a port that literally brims over with possibilities, including an Amalfi Coast drive that would be difficult to fit in with that timing.

 

Also, very much NOT a fan of the Yacht Club, aka ship-within-a-ship concept.

 

 

 

You make some very good points and have obviously checked into this very closely.  I can see those port times as being a huge problem for the majority.

[Hlitner]

Lots of good posts on this thread.  We had posted, long before COVID, our thought that HAL had lost its way.  At one point I compared the line to a ship without a rudder.   The old HAL loyalists (I guess we fall into that category) have been gradually dying off and not being replaced.  Old ships without lots of basic balcony cabins are just not what the market demands these days.  The lack of live entertainment is also not an effective way to attract a new generation of folks who have a passionate love of live music.  HAL has counted on a disproportionate number of senior cruisers to fill their ships and this is the very group that is most at risk of COVID-19 and influenza....both problems on ships.  

 

Can HAL survive COVID-19?  Not sure.  Then again, one has to wonder if any large cruise corporation will survive this virus..

 

Hank

[Tampa Girl]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Lots of good posts on this thread.  We had posted, long before COVID, our thought that HAL had lost its way.  At one point I compared the line to a ship without a rudder.   The old HAL loyalists (I guess we fall into that category) have been gradually dying off and not being replaced.  Old ships without lots of basic balcony cabins are just not what the market demands these days.  The lack of live entertainment is also not an effective way to attract a new generation of folks who have a passionate love of live music.  HAL has counted on a disproportionate number of senior cruisers to fill their ships and this is the very group that is most at risk of COVID-19 and influenza....both problems on ships.  

 

Can HAL survive COVID-19?  Not sure.  Then again, one has to wonder if any large cruise corporation will survive this virus..

 

Hank

 

You do not consider that the Vista, Signature and Pinnacle class ships to have "lots of basic balcony cabins?"  I have never taken a look at the percentage that these cabins comprise on each of these classes.

[Stateroom_Sailor]

Hopefully under new leadership, HAL will attract new clientele.  While some may be dying off, there are always new seniors in the pipeline.  Each generation will expect something different, so it is wise to avoid staying stagnate.  We've only sailed on Nieuw Amsterdam, but I thought there was plenty of live music.  I say focus on upcoming 60 year olds, with broader appeal to 80 and 40 year old destination cruisers.      

[Hlitner]

35 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

You do not consider that the Vista, Signature and Pinnacle class ships to have "lots of basic balcony cabins?"  I have never taken a look at the percentage that these cabins comprise on each of these classes.

Yes, those ships should do fine if cruising ever returns.  But many traditional HAL fans truly loved those older and smaller vessels and do not have the same love of the newer Signature and Pinnacle class.  I do think that the Vista Class is probably the best compromise (between small and large) that satisfies many long term HAL fans.  We have had our own concerns about what we saw as a big decline in HAL quality over the past few years and this was something that was discussed on various threads here on CC.  Perhaps we should be hopeful that HAL will use this long pause (due to COVID) to reinvent the line and again find their way.  But I fear that HAL, more then any other product in the CCL family, is very vulnerable to changes that will occur post COVID (if there ever is a post COVID).  The recent story by "The Points Guy" does hit on some of the issues that will likely haunt HAL.  For those here that do not routinely follow the Points Guy, he is a true travel industry insider with many excellent sources of information.  Although he specializes in the airline industry, he still gets lots of respect for his opinions/information on other aspects of the travel industry.  

 

I see another possibility for CCL.  If the cruise industry survives they will likely have to consolidate some operations, cut costs, reduce fleets, etc.  CCL has already implemented steps to reduce their fleet but has been relatively quiet about possible consolidation.  Will the HAL brand even survive?  Will it become a much smaller/lean cruise line?  I wonder how many customers have faith that Arnold Donald will make the right decisions.

 

Hank