Tripped up by Del Rio

[Georgia_Peaches]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:19 PM, Two Wheels Only said:

Imagine the following scenario...

I go to the store and buy a can of tuna for $1 in cash. There is a national recall for that tuna. I return the tuna to the store and the store offers either $1 cash or $1.25 in store credit. I take the store credit and use it to buy a Pepsi for $1.25. I change my mind and decide to return the Pepsi. Should the store give me $1 in cash or $1.25 in store credit?

Is there anything in the T & C's that indicate what happens to the value of the FCC in the event the company "goes out of business"?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Georgia_Peaches

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

But if the store goes out of business and has nothing left on its shelves for the buyer to use the $1.25 credit, shouldn't the store offer the original refund of $1.00 in order to make the customer whole?  It seems that the OP may have knee-jerk reacted into believing that NCL won't have anything left to use the FCC on so wanted to revert back to a refund.  

I can see both sides of it.  When the OP opted for the FCC, they were essentially saying to NCL, "you can keep my money as long as I get to cruise again...sometime".  But is there anything in the T & C's that indicate what happens to the value of the FCC in the event the company "goes out of business"?

Using your analogy, if the store goes out of business, then the customer will just have to wait in line behind all of the other creditors owed money by that business and hope there's enough left to give him back his $1.00. That being said, I have not seen anything credible to suggest that any of the major cruise lines are anywhere near "going out of business." This is how vicious rumors get started. Even if that were to happen, it's more likely that the cruise line would simply be acquired by another company rather than just cease operations and be liquidated.

[Georgia_Peaches]

4 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Using your analogy, if the store goes out of business, then the customer will just have to wait in line behind all of the other creditors owed money by that business and hope there's enough left to give him back his $1.00. That being said, I have not seen anything credible to suggest that any of the major cruise lines are anywhere near "going out of business." This is how vicious rumors get started. Even if that were to happen, it's more likely that the cruise line would simply be acquired by another company rather than just cease operations and be liquidated.

Agree.  I actually edited my post as several people posed a similar scenario.  I haven't heard anything about the big 3 going out of business.  Anything is possible, of course.  In my view, cash in hand is always better.  I'm guessing at this point, the OP would agree.

[DCGuy64]

Just now, Georgia_Peaches said:

Agree.  I actually edited my post as several people posed a similar scenario.  I haven't heard anything about the big 3 going out of business.  Anything is possible, of course.  In my view, cash in hand is always better.  I'm guessing at this point, the OP would agree.

Unfortunately, there are LOTS of comments on this site and others I've been following that suggest that very thing. Of course, the people making these claims have no factual basis for them. That's okay, though, I've just started ignoring them. I actually consider this to be a great time to book cruises, and did so again yesterday. We now have 3 cruises booked for 2021. 😃

If the naysayers want to cancel and stay home, fine by me, that leaves more space on the ship for me and my wife!

[farmersfight]

43 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

I actually consider this to be a great time to book cruises, and did so again yesterday. We now have 3 cruises booked for 2021. 😃

 

I commend your cruise dedication and optimism. For me, I'm not booking anything right now until I see how this plays out, i.e. how/when cruising will resume, what it will look like if covid is still around, if/when there is an effective vaccine, etc.

 

But, fingers crossed 🤞 that cruising will resume in 2021 and there will be an effective vaccine.

[DCGuy64]

5 minutes ago, farmersfight said:

 

I commend your cruise dedication and optimism. For me, I'm not booking anything right now until I see how this plays out, i.e. how/when cruising will resume, what it will look like if covid is still around, if/when there is an effective vaccine, etc.

 

But, fingers crossed 🤞 that cruising will resume in 2021 and there will be an effective vaccine.

Agreed on all counts, @farmersfight

[BermudaBound2014]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

 That being said, I have not seen anything credible to suggest that any of the major cruise lines are anywhere near "going out of business." This is how vicious rumors get started. Even if that were to happen, it's more likely that the cruise line would simply be acquired by another company rather than just cease operations and be liquidated.

 

I would think a company filing with the SEQ about their own state of financials as credible. Granted NCL has since secured some financial backing to carry them a longer, but cruise lines are scrambling to stay afloat right now by their OWN admission. At first CCL was selling 6 ships. Then 13. Today they announced two more bringing the total to 15. Viscous rumors? You have GOT to be joking. If not, bless your heart. 

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings warned investors Tuesday that it might be forced to go out of business, as tries to raise the money it'll need to weather the coronavirus crisis.

In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission Tuesday, the company said its accounting firm has "substantial doubt" about Norwegian's ability to continue as a going concern because of the Covid-19 pandemic." https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/business/norwegian-cruise-line/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

16 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I would think a company filing with the SEQ about their own state of financials as credible. Granted NCL has since secured some financial backing to carry them a longer, but cruise lines are scrambling to stay afloat right now by their OWN admission. At first CCL was selling 6 ships. Then 13. Today they announced two more bringing the total to 15. Viscous rumors? You have GOT to be joking. If not, bless your heart. 

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings warned investors Tuesday that it might be forced to go out of business, as tries to raise the money it'll need to weather the coronavirus crisis.

In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission Tuesday, the company said its accounting firm has "substantial doubt" about Norwegian's ability to continue as a going concern because of the Covid-19 pandemic." https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/business/norwegian-cruise-line/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know that article is nearly 3 months old, right? And it's from CNN, so nuff said. 😉

[luv2kroooz]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Unfortunately, there are LOTS of comments on this site and others I've been following that suggest that very thing. Of course, the people making these claims have no factual basis for them. That's okay, though, I've just started ignoring them. I actually consider this to be a great time to book cruises, and did so again yesterday. We now have 3 cruises booked for 2021. 😃

If the naysayers want to cancel and stay home, fine by me, that leaves more space on the ship for me and my wife!

Why would you ignore someone for having a different opinion than you? Seems strange to me. I couldn't disagree more with you but of course this is my opinion. But my opinion is formed on factual basis....some of which are outlined below.

 

Have you read the 28 questions for which the CDC is soliciting public comments? Serious issues raised here that need to be resolved before cruising begins in US. For example, what is your vision for the scenario if Covid is onboard....cancel the cruise immediately? Continue the sailing? Quarantine the infected onboard? Disembark them? Where? At whose cost?

 

What does the onboard experience look and feel like?

 

We've already seen three small cruise lines fold up shop, Carnival Corp originally announced downsizing by 11, now 13 ships. They are rumored to be looking to get rid of Cunard and Seaborne brands. I believe this will eventually flow up to the big guys with consolidations. Yes,that is only speculation on my part.

 

So, you can have your own opinion and please continue booking cruises if you believe now is the time to book. However, it is evident to me that you are turning a blind eye to important details that don't fit the emotional result you are trying to achieve. So justify it by saying things like there will be more room for you and your wife on the ship or however you wish to justify your decision in your mind. But quit trying to scold people for not buying into that and expressing a viewpoint that doesn't match yours. This would be a pretty boring forum if we all nodded our heads like puppets in agreement on every issue. Be safe and good luck with your bookings.

Edited July 30, 2020 by luv2kroooz

[DCGuy64]

9 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

Why would you ignore someone for having a different opinion than you? Seems strange to me. I couldn't disagree more with you but of course this is my opinion. But my opinion is formed on factual basis....some of which are outlined below.

 

Have you read the 28 questions for which the CDC is soliciting public comments? Serious issues raised here that need to be resolved before cruising begins in US. For example, what is your vision for the scenario if Covid is onboard....cancel the cruise immediately? Continue the sailing? Quarantine the infected onboard? Disembark them? Where? At whose cost?

 

What does the onboard experience look and feel like?

 

We've already seen three small cruise lines fold up shop, Carnival Corp originally announced downsizing by 11, now 13 ships. They are rumored to be looking to get rid of Cunard and Seaborne brands. I believe this will eventually flow up to the big guys with consolidations. Yes,that is only speculation on my part.

 

So, you can have your own opinion and please continue booking cruises if you believe now is the time to book. However, it is evident to me that you are turning a blind eye to important details that don't fit the emotional result you are trying to achieve. So justify it by saying things like there will be more room for you and your wife on the ship or however you wish to justify your decision in your mind. But quit trying to scold people for not buying into that and expressing a viewpoint that doesn't match yours. This would be a pretty boring forum if we all nodded our heads like puppets in agreement on every issue. Be safe and good luck with your bookings.

Thanks for your post and have a great cruise wherever and whenever it may be.

[BermudaBound2014]

25 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

You know that article is nearly 3 months old, right? And it's from CNN, so nuff said. 😉

 

LOL....I linked the news article in summary form because it seems that you don't read much in the way of financials. If you did, you wouldn't have stated that there are no credible sources. Hell, three smaller lines have already defaulted.  And yes, of course I know that NCL filed with the SEQ in June. And of course I'm aware they have since secured additional funds to carry them over. Are you aware of the limit on those funds? While I'm at it, you do know that NCL was downgraded to junk stock, correct?

 

I know I must sound like a total B*** right now, but you are choosing to ignoring some very glaring facts and then name calling those of us who are looking at the picture more holistically as "debby downers"  I get that cruises are sailing from Germany (and China). I also have read the press report that Greece is opening up. These are all great signs, but none address how the USA is going to get sailing again, and since we are a lions share of the industry, it is imperative that North America opens up before I'll call it good.  NCL made a filing with the Securities Exchange Commission saying they were in trouble of bankruptcy and this data not sufficient?  

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by BermudaBound2014

[hallux]

15 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

because it seems that you don't read much in the way of financials

 

15 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

NCL made a filing with the Securities Exchange Commission saying they were in trouble of bankruptcy and this data not sufficient?  

And since that article and filing there's been ANOTHER filing that retracted the initial "substantially in doubt of remaining as a going concern" (we might go under) and returned the company to "going concern status" for the next year or so.  I guess YOU aren't reading filings.  You can post articles all you want to fit your narrative, but at least post CURRENT ones...

 

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/norwegian-cruise-line-nclh-auditor-going-concern-warning-removed

 

[BermudaBound2014]

10 minutes ago, hallux said:

 

And since that article and filing there's been ANOTHER filing that retracted the initial "substantially in doubt of remaining as a going concern" (we might go under) and returned the company to "going concern status" for the next year or so.  I guess YOU aren't reading filings.  You can post articles all you want to fit your narrative, but at least post CURRENT ones...

 

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/norwegian-cruise-line-nclh-auditor-going-concern-warning-removed

 

 

That is a fair criticism. Thank you for pointing me in a better direction.  I admittedly stopped following once I stopped day trading cruise stock and i was wrong not to provide the most up to date info.

 

However; the tenet of my response to DCguy stands. I strongly disagree that there is no evidence to support that cruise lines are in financial trouble. They are bleeding profusely by their own admission. To think otherwise is naive at best.

Edited July 30, 2020 by BermudaBound2014
addition

[BirdTravels]

8 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I would think a company filing with the SEQ about their own state of financials as credible. Granted NCL has since secured some financial backing to carry them a longer, but cruise lines are scrambling to stay afloat right now by their OWN admission. At first CCL was selling 6 ships. Then 13. Today they announced two more bringing the total to 15. Viscous rumors? You have GOT to be joking. If not, bless your heart. 

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings warned investors Tuesday that it might be forced to go out of business, as tries to raise the money it'll need to weather the coronavirus crisis. In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission Tuesday, the company said its accounting firm has "substantial doubt" about Norwegian's ability to continue as a going concern because of the Covid-19 pandemic." https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/business/norwegian-cruise-line/index.html

So, this is very old news. An SEC filing is obligatory regulatory filing. NCL had secured significant financing a few days after making the filing. As far as the news report, it is fake news by the mainstream media. CNN generates advertising revenue by taking facts out of context, creating sensationalized headlines, and posting it to get clicks. Clicks = $$$. This practice is as old as time and is why a once highly credible news agency is now worse than tabloid news. 

[Goldconnection]

1 hour ago, BirdTravels said:

So, this is very old news. An SEC filing is obligatory regulatory filing. NCL had secured significant financing a few days after making the filing. As far as the news report, it is fake news by the mainstream media. CNN generates advertising revenue by taking facts out of context, creating sensationalized headlines, and posting it to get clicks. Clicks = $$$. This practice is as old as time and is why a once highly credible news agency is now worse than tabloid news. 

BirdTravels, PLEASE lighten up. It is not that serious not here anyway. Get a hobby. Grow a garden. Get a life. 

[DCGuy64]

12 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

So, this is very old news. An SEC filing is obligatory regulatory filing. NCL had secured significant financing a few days after making the filing. As far as the news report, it is fake news by the mainstream media. CNN generates advertising revenue by taking facts out of context, creating sensationalized headlines, and posting it to get clicks. Clicks = $$$. This practice is as old as time and is why a once highly credible news agency is now worse than tabloid news. 

Well said, @BirdTravels. That's exactly why I stopped watching CNN. As you say, they take facts out of context and sensationalize them. There are far better and more credible news sources out there. I'm partial to British and European sources, myself.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Well said, @BirdTravels. That's exactly why I stopped watching CNN. As you say, they take facts out of context and sensationalize them. There are far better and more credible news sources out there. I'm partial to British and European sources, myself.

 

Won't get an argument from me about news bias, so with that in mind, here is the actual SEQ filing I was referencing (yes, NCL secured an additional 2.2 billion after and we can have a friendly disagreement about how long that $$ will actually last in another thread ).  No news sensationalism here: https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1513761/000110465920056537/nclh-20200416x8k.htm

 

 

On 7/30/2020 at 8:24 AM, DCGuy64 said:

... I have not seen anything credible to suggest that any of the major cruise lines are anywhere near "going out of business." This is how vicious rumors get started. Even if that were to happen, it's more likely that the cruise line would simply be acquired by another company rather than just cease operations and be liquidated.

 

You stated that discussing the possibility of bankruptcy was spreading "viscous rumors' because you hadn't found a single "credible" reference to suggest cruise lines are in trouble, so I provided one for you. Yes, it is true that this filing was changed as additional debt was secured,  but it clearly demonstrates that an extremely fragile financial position exists.   

 

I'm not stating that NCL is going to file for bankruptcy. I am suggesting that there are many credible references which demonstrate that ALL cruise lines are in serious financial trouble.  I mean, c'mon, are your rose colored glasses so tinted that you are entirely removed from the reality of this extended closure?  

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by BermudaBound2014

[ray98]

13 hours ago, Goldconnection said:

BirdTravels, PLEASE lighten up. It is not that serious not here anyway. Get a hobby. Grow a garden. Get a life. 

 

They posted facts.  Why would that bother you?

[npcl]

On 7/30/2020 at 9:20 AM, DCGuy64 said:

You know that article is nearly 3 months old, right? And it's from CNN, so nuff said. 😉

It was from information that NCLH made in their SEC filings.

 

Will be interesting if the lines are not able to be sailing a fair percentage of their fleets by March. Cash keeps going out the door and debt keeps piling up.

[hamrag]

8 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

....You stated that discussing the possibility of bankruptcy was spreading "viscous rumors"....

 

What is a viscous rumor?? 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

17 hours ago, hamrag said:

What is a viscous rumor?? 

A thick one.