COVID-19 Surging Across Europe

[Ex-Airbalancer]

I rather listen to Health Canada than the USA CDC 

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/06/929078678/cdc-report-officials-knew-coronavirus-test-was-flawed-but-released-it-anyway

[TeeRick]

20 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

As infection rise in Europe we are seeing leadership make difficult decisions.  Culling 15million minks in Denmark, the whole industry, is serious.  Apparently minks were infected from human, the vuri=us mutated and pumped back to humans infecting 12 people with a new strain offering fear that current proposed vaccines could be ineffective.  All cruising, which had restarted carefully, is being shut down.  France recorded a new daily high and the UK is heading for a near total lockdown.  The virus is raging in Latin America which now counts for 1 in 3 COVID-19 deaths.  

 

This pandemic needs to be attacked like the Manhattan Project with as unlimited resources as can be made available.  Difficult to believe that its only been 9 months since this first started...and we are still falling behind.  Wear your PPE and stay safe.  With the US election taking front stage in many countries the virus is being relegated to the second page.  We can't let that happen!

Completely understand your sense of concern and urgency.  But to perhaps be a bit more positive the world is making unlimited resources available in many countries and by most governments (yes including the US) and medical institutions and pharma/biotech companies are accelerating the research very rapidly.  Unprecedented by any account. Nine months is a relatively short time to go from virus identification to near vaccine! And therapies are developed and are being developed.  Medical science has never worked this much together and so quickly.   Much unlike the Manhattan Project which was a small, secretive group in one country dedicated to building a weapon with the potential to destroy humanity (not save it).

[MamaFej]

38 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

I generally agree with you! However, if people - not politicians but citizens - are still refusing science and the possibility that there are better ways to get through this, the efforts will be slowed down, sabotaged and more lives lost in vain. Because the sad fact is that the only factor in this game acting very effectively and without discrimination is the virus itself.

Although it seems that this virus is sentient, replicating amongst those whom do not think it is real, and subjugating amongst those who realize that it is, it is simply an organism, striving to exist when and where it can, it will continue to spread whenever and wherever it possibly can, it will also replicate amongst those who recognize its power.. 

 

Just as seatbelts are only one means of mitigation in reducing traffic fatalities, no logical person relies upon seatbelts alone. Seatbelts, and airbags,  and crumple zones,  and radar, and ABS, and steering correctional algotrhythms and a competent, aware driver, reduce but do not eliminate traffic deaths, masks, and social distancing,  and  avoiding crowds,  and idiotically congregating can reduce Covid transmission. 

 

If we choose to behave intelligently, we can slow transmission and save lives. If we choose to behave like idiots, we will increase transmission and cost lives, livelihoods, and economies. It's actually not that complicated: "But ma freedums" makes things worse. "Taking care of myself and others" makes things better. 

 

 

[Miaminice]

2 hours ago, MamaFej said:

Although it seems that this virus is sentient, replicating amongst those whom do not think it is real, and subjugating amongst those who realize that it is, it is simply an organism, striving to exist when and where it can, it will continue to spread whenever and wherever it possibly can, it will also replicate amongst those who recognize its power.. 

 

Just as seatbelts are only one means of mitigation in reducing traffic fatalities, no logical person relies upon seatbelts alone. Seatbelts, and airbags,  and crumple zones,  and radar, and ABS, and steering correctional algotrhythms and a competent, aware driver, reduce but do not eliminate traffic deaths, masks, and social distancing,  and  avoiding crowds,  and idiotically congregating can reduce Covid transmission. 

 

If we choose to behave intelligently, we can slow transmission and save lives. If we choose to behave like idiots, we will increase transmission and cost lives, livelihoods, and economies. It's actually not that complicated: "But ma freedums" makes things worse. "Taking care of myself and others" makes things better. 

 

 

Which is basically what I said and totally agree with. 
Problem is that you can have your seatbelts on and all kind of gimmicks installed and you are still vulnerable if some “But ma freedums“-person plows into you with their V8 truck... 😢

Edited November 8, 2020 by Miaminice

[TeeRick]

I think perhaps either I am not being clear to some or perhaps just some of you disagree.  That is perfectly OK.  I simply said that I am personally keeping out of the politics.  I am not wasting energy on it (except apparently for this post😀. It is very draining and unproductive for me personally.   Others seem to love it.  To each his or her own.  Rather, I am energized by the great science, medicine and cooperation going on worldwide at unprecedented pace which will ultimately defeat this virus and hopefully get us all back to cruising.   

[Miaminice]

57 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I think perhaps either I am not being clear to some or perhaps just some of you disagree.  That is perfectly OK.  I simply said that I am personally keeping out of the politics.  I am not wasting energy on it (except apparently for this post😀. It is very draining and unproductive for me personally.   Others seem to love it.  To each his or her own.  Rather, I am energized by the great science, medicine and cooperation going on worldwide at unprecedented pace which will ultimately defeat this virus and hopefully get us all back to cruising.   

For me you are being clear and I do hear ya - it’s just that especially in the US this topic has become so political that it’s very hard to separate it. And that’s the shame! Because the bottom line is (and I am sure that’s the way you also see it) that a virus is nothing political at all - it’s all about science, medicine, virology... you named it all. Making it political is very draining and demoralizing - also agree 100%.
 

We live in Germany and here the virus has never been politicized to a great extend. There are debates, yes - and there should be. And there is also a small but loud number of conspiracy theorists. But everyone who can add 2 and 2 together knows we are in this together... or should know.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Miaminice

[Doubt It]

54 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I think perhaps either I am not being clear to some or perhaps just some of you disagree.  That is perfectly OK.  I simply said that I am personally keeping out of the politics.  I am not wasting energy on it (except apparently for this post😀. It is very draining and unproductive for me personally.   Others seem to love it.  To each his or her own.  Rather, I am energized by the great science, medicine and cooperation going on worldwide at unprecedented pace which will ultimately defeat this virus and hopefully get us all back to cruising.   

 TeeRick. Thank you for your post.

 

Thank you for your knowledge that you have shared with the CC boards. What I have witnessed is the political and public service struggle to message out to the public facts and procedures and questions originating from a myriad of medical and science sources, such sources who have often not agreed - over many months - with a changing dynamic which then changes the messaging (example, early on, no need for masks, now it is masks).

 

I often think this virus situation is like the European political folks and public service during the World Wars. Oh my, the facts kept changing on the battlefield and the ability to correctly message to the residents must have been beyond stressful and with no technology.  

 

What I do personally need in this virus situation is for politicians, public servants, the media, the public, doctors and scientists, to question everything, all the time and take nothing for granted and no idea is not without consideration. Because this virus situation is a war.

 

The CC boards are great for this, info is presented and analyzed and another poster builds on it.

 

Right now the virus is surging in Canada, highest levels of cases ever. In my area, yesterday the British Columbia closed in the lower mainland, all public spaces and restricted personal bubble sizes. So, we are in November and the Alaska cruise season is 5 months away, who knows.

 

Everyone keep speaking and analyzing and questioning everything.

 

 

[Gracie115]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

I think perhaps either I am not being clear to some or perhaps just some of you disagree.  That is perfectly OK.  I simply said that I am personally keeping out of the politics.  I am not wasting energy on it (except apparently for this post😀. It is very draining and unproductive for me personally.   Others seem to love it.  To each his or her own.  Rather, I am energized by the great science, medicine and cooperation going on worldwide at unprecedented pace which will ultimately defeat this virus and hopefully get us all back to cruising.   

 

I do understand and agree with you too.  The science, medicine and work going on worldwide is what we need to concentration on.  Continually reviewing what "shoulda, coulda, woulda" have been done is fruitless and does nothing productive.  

People, wear your mask, wash your hands, protect yourselves and the ones you love....THAT will help get us to the other side of this mess.

[TeeRick]

43 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

For me you are being clear and I do hear ya - it’s just that especially in the US this topic has become so political that it’s very hard to separate it. And that’s the shame! Because the bottom line is (and I am sure that’s the way you also see it) that a virus is nothing political at all - it’s all about science, medicine, virology... you named it all. Making it political is very draining and demoralizing - also agree 100%.
 

We live in Germany and here the virus has never been politicized to a great extend. There are debates, yes - and there should be. And there is also a small but loud number of conspiracy theorists. But everyone who can add 2 and 2 together knows we are in this together... or should know.

I hope things get better for you in Germany as they did before and we all together will overcome this damn virus no matter where we live.  "Be positive and continue doing the right things".  Let's hope that message is more contagious than the virus!

[TeeRick]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:04 AM, Miaminice said:

For me you are being clear and I do hear ya - it’s just that especially in the US this topic has become so political that it’s very hard to separate it. And that’s the shame! Because the bottom line is (and I am sure that’s the way you also see it) that a virus is nothing political at all - it’s all about science, medicine, virology... you named it all. Making it political is very draining and demoralizing - also agree 100%.
 

We live in Germany and here the virus has never been politicized to a great extend. There are debates, yes - and there should be. And there is also a small but loud number of conspiracy theorists. But everyone who can add 2 and 2 together knows we are in this together... or should know.

Congrats to Germany!  BioNTech is a German biotech company working with Pfizer.  They are the ones that actually developed the world's first COVID vaccine with an interim analysis at 90% efficacy announced today.  Hooray Germany!!!

[Ride-The-Waves]

The real challenge with the BioNTech/Pfizer trail vaccine is the need for extreme cold storage: minus 94degrees F / minus 70 degrees C.

 

Ultracold storage is “is not necessarily routinely available in most health centers even in the U.K., let alone globally,” Michael Head, a fellow in global health at the University of Southampton said in a statement.

 

Groups like the World Health Organization and UNICEF have said that countries need to improve their “cold chain” logistical networks to make sure vaccines can be distributed safely. the Associated Press reported last month that nearly 3 billion people live in areas where temperature-controlled storage is insufficient for the task.

 

Any vaccine must be practical and useable, and not solely a "trail" version.  Hopefully the other efforts will continue and we will have multiple options.  Even then, having a vaccine available for potential vacationers/cruisers, and one acceptable to all countries (again, WHO needs to work this) is a requirement before we can go traveling again.

 

Not planning on anything in 2021...

[cangelmd]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The real challenge with the BioNTech/Pfizer trail vaccine is the need for extreme cold storage: minus 94degrees F / minus 70 degrees C.

 

Ultracold storage is “is not necessarily routinely available in most health centers even in the U.K., let alone globally,” Michael Head, a fellow in global health at the University of Southampton said in a statement.

 

Groups like the World Health Organization and UNICEF have said that countries need to improve their “cold chain” logistical networks to make sure vaccines can be distributed safely. the Associated Press reported last month that nearly 3 billion people live in areas where temperature-controlled storage is insufficient for the task.

 

Any vaccine must be practical and useable, and not solely a "trail" version.  Hopefully the other efforts will continue and we will have multiple options.  Even then, having a vaccine available for potential vacationers/cruisers, and one acceptable to all countries (again, WHO needs to work this) is a requirement before we can go traveling again.

 

Not planning on anything in 2021...

As TeeRick said, the efficacy is in their Phase 3 trial, not just a laboratory observation. 
I don’t want to sound like an entitled, spoiled American, but the first doses will be shunted to places where cold logistics are available, but that isn’t just in North America - first responders and healthcare workers in many other countries could rapidly get access, because of centralized administration. Will that cover every elderly person in the world, sadly, no, but every dose used is one step taken toward herd immunity. For that reason I’m not too apologetic about First World countries getting earlier access. Let’s not waste this gift, though, get vaccinated!

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, cangelmd said:

As TeeRick said, the efficacy is in their Phase 3 trial, not just a laboratory observation. 
I don’t want to sound like an entitled, spoiled American, but the first doses will be shunted to places where cold logistics are available, but that isn’t just in North America - first responders and healthcare workers in many other countries could rapidly get access, because of centralized administration. Will that cover every elderly person in the world, sadly, no, but every dose used is one step taken toward herd immunity. For that reason I’m not too apologetic about First World countries getting earlier access. Let’s not waste this gift, though, get vaccinated!

And wear your mask and use PPE!

[dreaminofcruisin]

Pfizer is doing their own packaging of their vaccine which might help with some of the issues related to the extremely cold storage:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/pfizer-readies-herculean-effort-distribute-coronavirus-vaccine-n1247147

 

"...

Each package will be equipped with a GPS-tracked thermal sensor to monitor location and temperature, which the company says will “proactively” prevent “deviations” — such as accidents or theft. The company is bypassing its usual wholesale distribution partners, including McKesson, which is also the main partner for the government’s Operation Warp Speed vaccine project, and spent over $2 billion to create its own direct distribution network. Once the packages are delivered, receivers can store them in ultra-low temperature freezers for up to 6 months, inside a refrigeration unit for up to 5 days, or they can refill the box with new dry ice for up to 15 days of storage...."

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, cangelmd said:

As TeeRick said, the efficacy is in their Phase 3 trial, not just a laboratory observation. 
I don’t want to sound like an entitled, spoiled American, but the first doses will be shunted to places where cold logistics are available, but that isn’t just in North America - first responders and healthcare workers in many other countries could rapidly get access, because of centralized administration. Will that cover every elderly person in the world, sadly, no, but every dose used is one step taken toward herd immunity. For that reason I’m not too apologetic about First World countries getting earlier access. Let’s not waste this gift, though, get vaccinated!

And wear your mask and use PPE!

[Ride-The-Waves]

Question earlier on the World Health Organization and the implied relationship to the world wide global COVID-19 pandemic.  As a youngster growing up in Geneva, Switzerland we lived across the street from WHO headquarters - they have long since moved to larger facilities.  

 

From Wiki:

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) is a specialized agency of the United Nations responsible for international public health. The WHO Constitution, which establishes the agency's governing structure and principles, states its main objective as "the attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health." It is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, with six semi-autonomous regional offices and 150 field offices worldwide.

 

The WHO's broad mandate includes advocating for universal healthcare, monitoring public health risks, coordinating responses to health emergencies, and promoting human health and well being. It provides technical assistance to countries, sets international health standards and guidelines, and collects data on global health issues through the World Health Survey. 

 

The WHO has played a leading role in several public health achievements, most notably the eradication of smallpox, the near-eradication of polio, and the development of an Ebola vaccine. Its current priorities include communicable diseases, particularly HIV/AIDS, Ebola, malaria and tuberculosis; non-communicable diseases such as heart disease and cancer; healthy diet, nutrition, and food security; occupational health; and substance abuse.

 

The WHA (World Health Assembly), composed of representatives from all 194 member states, serves as the agency's supreme decision-making body. It also elects and advises an Executive Board made up of 34 health specialists. 

 

The International Sanitary Conferences, originally held on 23 June 1851, were the first predecessors of the WHO. A series of 14 conferences that lasted from 1851 to 1938, the International Sanitary Conferences worked to combat many diseases, chief among them cholera, yellow fever, and the bubonic plague. 

 

The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis, known worldwide as the "Yellow Card" or "Carte Jaune," is issued by WHO and recognized internationally and is required by some countries as proof of vaccination against communicable diseases for entry.  Its likely there will be a need for certification of COVID-19 vaccination for travel and cruising.  WHO's "Yellow Card" will be the venue for that certification.

[sfaaa]

21 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

The WHO's broad mandate includes advocating for universal healthcare, monitoring public health risks, coordinating responses to health emergencies, and promoting human health and well being. It provides technical assistance to countries, sets international health standards and guidelines, and collects data on global health issues through the World Health Survey. 

 

 

Universal?

[LGW59]

21 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

And wear your mask and use PPE!

Yea, what you said!

[Ex-Airbalancer]

33 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

Universal?

Most of the world does have some kind universal healthcare

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, Airbalancer said:

Most of the world does have some kind universal healthcare

as it should be

[Ride-The-Waves]

Its closer to this:

 

We toured India's Golden Triangle in 2014 as part of a Mumbai-Athens cruise on Azamara: five days in New Delhi, Agra and Jaipur.  Fascinating since at that same time India, world's largest democracy, was going through its elections serving 800million voters.  India has a universal healthcare system and also a private system used by the middle and upper classes.  But they do have care available for everyone.

[sfaaa]

2 hours ago, LGW59 said:

as it should be

Yes except WHO is not following its own mandate lately.

[Doubt It]

18 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Its closer to this:

 

We toured India's Golden Triangle in 2014 as part of a Mumbai-Athens cruise on Azamara: five days in New Delhi, Agra and Jaipur.  Fascinating since at that same time India, world's largest democracy, was going through its elections serving 800million voters.  India has a universal healthcare system and also a private system used by the middle and upper classes.  But they do have care available for everyone.

 

Health care is not free in Canada. There is a very significant cost starting with a 13% consumption tax on everything, very high gas taxes and very high income tax. We do not consider it free whatsoever. All this tax $ disappears into the government coffers and no one has a say on the health system.

 

While we do not pay a monthly premium, the overall tax impact on our family is very, very significant. There is no customization, ie premium for a single, couple or family, universal yes.  For all the significant tax I pay, I am waiting to get a family doctor, I have none, and my wait is approaching 11 months. Approximately 21% of people in Ontario do not have a family doctor.

 

We prefer the very common approach of a small universal system combined with optionality for private purchase. 

 

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

22 minutes ago, Doubt It said:

 

Health care is not free in Canada. There is a very significant cost starting with a 13% consumption tax on everything, very high gas taxes and very high income tax. We do not consider it free whatsoever. All this tax $ disappears into the government coffers and no one has a say on the health system.

 

While we do not pay a monthly premium, the overall tax impact on our family is very, very significant. There is no customization, ie premium for a single, couple or family, universal yes.  For all the significant tax I pay, I am waiting to get a family doctor, I have none, and my wait is approaching 11 months. Approximately 21% of people in Ontario do not have a family doctor.

 

We prefer the very common approach of a small universal system combined with optionality for private purchase. 

 

 

Nothing is "free" in this world.  We all pay for the security we enjoy, be it healthcare, police, military to secure the borders, etc.  Your last sentence sounds like what the Swiss enjoy: health insurance is managed by cantons (states/provinces) and premiums (paid like a tax) are based on local costs.  Swiss have the option of purchasing additional insurance.

 

Having some form of healthcare is a basic human right and has been practiced since the dawn of man, be it by the local "with doctor," shaman, country doctor, or tribal doctor.  And it never has been "free."  Cost sharing has always been intrinsic to humans healthcare.  

 

Healthcare on cruise ships is likely to become much more expensive and built-in to the price of transportation as protocols are developed and medical centers and staff expanded.  A good question is how will this be paid for those who have good health care insurance?  Percentage of the fare?  Per person cost (same for all fare levels)?  Some way to offset based on personal or national health insurance?  A required insurance policy just for travel?

[Ex-Airbalancer]

1 hour ago, Doubt It said:

 

Health care is not free in Canada. There is a very significant cost starting with a 13% consumption tax on everything, very high gas taxes and very high income tax. We do not consider it free whatsoever. All this tax $ disappears into the government coffers and no one has a say on the health system.

 

While we do not pay a monthly premium, the overall tax impact on our family is very, very significant. There is no customization, ie premium for a single, couple or family, universal yes.  For all the significant tax I pay, I am waiting to get a family doctor, I have none, and my wait is approaching 11 months. Approximately 21% of people in Ontario do not have a family doctor.

 

We prefer the very common approach of a small universal system combined with optionality for private purchase. 

 

 

I would disagree with you , our health system it not the best , but it better than most