COVID-19 Surging Across Europe

[ipeeinthepool]

2 hours ago, Doubt It said:

While we do not pay a monthly premium, the overall tax impact on our family is very, very significant. There is no customization, ie premium for a single, couple or family, universal yes.  For all the significant tax I pay, I am waiting to get a family doctor, I have none, and my wait is approaching 11 months. Approximately 21% of people in Ontario do not have a family doctor.

 

The waiting is certainly what we see from the Canadian health care system, particularly diagnostic testing.  We live in the Detroit area and there are numerous independent testing companies for MRI's, CT scans, ultrasound, etc and a large component of there business are patients coming from Canada and paying for tests themselves because there is a long wait in Canada or at least the Windsor area.  At least this was the case before Covid, I guess there are no other options now.

 

No thank you for the national health care system in Canada, I'll keep the US system with private health care insurance.  There's plenty of room for improvement and cost reduction but nationalizing the system isn't the answer.

[ipeeinthepool]

On 11/6/2020 at 3:32 PM, Ride-The-Waves said:

As infection rise in Europe we are seeing leadership make difficult decisions.  Culling 15million minks in Denmark, the whole industry, is serious.  Apparently minks were infected from human, the vuri=us mutated and pumped back to humans infecting 12 people with a new strain offering fear that current proposed vaccines could be ineffective.

 

I never realizing that there were 3 minks for every person in Denmark.  😉  Apparently Europe has not realized that fur coats are not politically correct.

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

I would disagree with you , our health system it not the best , but it better than most 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Ranking of countries' health systems vary, but Canada usually does quite well. For example, these two websites rate the same countries as falling in the top three, but in different order.

 

US News:

1. Canada

2. Denmark

3. Sweden

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system

 

Cigna:

1. Denmark

2. Sweden

3. Canada

https://www.cignaglobal.com/top-10-countries-best-heathcare-system

 

The variations are quite understandable, as different reports place different weighting on different factors. Cigna's rankings included this comment: "Canada holds a remarkably high life expectancy rate, which many attribute to the efficiency of its health care system."

 

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Vice Provost for Global Initiatives and chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania, comment as follows:

 

I know this is an evasive answer, but the honest truth is it depends what your criteria are and what you actually care about. If you’re a health policy wonk, a lot of what you’ll care about is: Do you get universal coverage and how expensive is it? Do you have some mechanism to control the total expenditures in the country? By that criteria, we don’t do well but other countries do well.

 

A lot of people care about: Do I have choice of doctor and hospital unlimited choice? By that criteria, places like Germany or Switzerland or France are at the top. Other people don’t want to have co-pays at the point of care and no deductibles. There you see that Britain and Canada and, at least for public hospitals, Australia are good. Some people want low drug prices. For that, you’ve got Norway, Taiwan, Australia. Some people want no waiting times. Well, obviously, Canada, Norway, Britain are not on your list but Switzerland and Germany are very high on your list.

 

It really depends what the criteria or set of criteria are. 

 

 

[Arizona Wildcat]

21 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I couldn't agree more. Ranking of countries' health systems vary, but Canada usually does quite well. For example, these two websites rate the same countries as falling in the top three, but in different order.

 

US News:

1. Canada

2. Denmark

3. Sweden

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system

 

Cigna:

1. Denmark

2. Sweden

3. Canada

https://www.cignaglobal.com/top-10-countries-best-heathcare-system

 

The variations are quite understandable, as different reports place different weighting on different factors. Cigna's rankings included this comment: "Canada holds a remarkably high life expectancy rate, which many attribute to the efficiency of its health care system."

 

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Vice Provost for Global Initiatives and chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania, comment as follows:

 

I know this is an evasive answer, but the honest truth is it depends what your criteria are and what you actually care about. If you’re a health policy wonk, a lot of what you’ll care about is: Do you get universal coverage and how expensive is it? Do you have some mechanism to control the total expenditures in the country? By that criteria, we don’t do well but other countries do well.

 

A lot of people care about: Do I have choice of doctor and hospital unlimited choice? By that criteria, places like Germany or Switzerland or France are at the top. Other people don’t want to have co-pays at the point of care and no deductibles. There you see that Britain and Canada and, at least for public hospitals, Australia are good. Some people want low drug prices. For that, you’ve got Norway, Taiwan, Australia. Some people want no waiting times. Well, obviously, Canada, Norway, Britain are not on your list but Switzerland and Germany are very high on your list.

 

It really depends what the criteria or set of criteria are. 

 

 

It certainly does matter what you use as your criteria.  Australia is absolutely wonderful for care in an urgent or emergency care situation.  Something not urgent like a rotator cuff surgery that you would have done in a week or two in the US will take years or never be done if you are two old. 

The biggest problems with the US health "system" is some 15 million who are not legal residents and 20 million mostly 20-35 year olds who choose not to purchase insurance because they "don't need insurance".  We also have some 8-10 million poor that are eligible for basically free health care and have not signed up.  In Arizona 1/3 of children from poor families have no insurance - again the parents did not sign up.  

[PTC DAWG]

Waiting 11 months for a Doc sounds real ideal, I’ll pass. 

[Ride-The-Waves]

3 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I never realizing that there were 3 minks for every person in Denmark.  😉  Apparently Europe has not realized that fur coats are not politically correct.

Read that Denmark decided to not cull the minks!  Good for the minks...

[ipeeinthepool]

14 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Read that Denmark decided to not cull the minks!  Good for the minks...

 

I think you are overstating the situation.  The Danish government realized they did not have the authority to order culling the minks.  They are asking for voluntary compliance to cull the minks and working on options to completely cull the population.  In any case it's not good to be a mink on a Danish mink farm.  At best it's only a temporary reprieve from a guaranteed future.

[zap99]

3 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I never realizing that there were 3 minks for every person in Denmark.  😉  Apparently Europe has not realized that fur coats are not politically correct.

No mink farms in UK, 5000 in the EU, which we left.

[SeaHunt]

This is the ship that didn't require masks (at first):

 

"SeaDream Yacht Club is heading back to Barbados, after a passenger tested positive for COVID-19.

 

The ship, SeaDream I, was on its first Caribbean cruise since the pandemic caused sailing to cease in March. The line had already had a successful transatlantic sailing, picking up passengers from Oslo, Rotterdam, the U.K. and Funchal, Madeira.

 

Passengers on the current cruise had boarded the ship on Saturday. The ship had already called at St Vincent, Canouan, the Tobago Cays and Union Island, with trips ashore to empty beaches and for snorkelling in a carefully orchestrated bubble, with no contact allowed with local people.

 

Passengers were required to take a COVID-19 test at home before flying to the island and test negative within 72 hours of travel. They then were given another PCR test by the cruise line's ship doctor at the dock before boarding.

 

Passengers werer going to take another test today, as per Barbados protocols to take a test several days into the sailing. The passenger who tested positive asked for an additional test as they were feeling ill".

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5727/

Edited November 12, 2020 by SeaHunt

[Ride-The-Waves]

Just read that Sea Dream I can carry 112 passengers and a crew of 95, keeping total complement under the CDC's 250 for its framework for conditional sailing.

 

Extensive, multilayer testing for Covid-19 has been an integral part of SeaDream's efforts to create a Covid-19 negative bubble aboard its ships. 

Passengers were tested both in advance of traveling to the ship and also before boarding the ship, Sloan said.

"And SeaDream also was testing passengers four days into the trip," he said. "We were scheduled to be tested again today. That's a more rigorous testing plan than most lines had been discussing for their restarts."

 

...the captain informed passengers of the preliminary positive test over the ship's intercom system shortly before lunchtime on Wednesday.

Passengers were instructed to return to their cabins and remain isolated there, he said.

 

Disconcerting.  If a very small ship taking all these precautions and protocols can become infected what is going too happen with the ships we normally sail?

[ipeeinthepool]

8 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

If a very small ship taking all these precautions and protocols can become infected what is going too happen with the ships we normally sail?

 

Probably shouldn’t surprise anyone.  It’s well known that you can carry the virus for ten days before it develops.  Unless you put passengers and crew in a bubble for at least 10 days prior to the cruise this will continue to happen.   The passenger may have had the virus for longer than 5 days or he could heave caught it from the taxi driver on the way to the port.

 

if you are going to return to cruising the challenge will be to prevent spread onboard and to get the sick passengers the care they need.  This is why you will need to wear your mask and social distance if cruising resumes before a vaccine.

[d9704011]

9 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Disconcerting.  If a very small ship taking all these precautions and protocols can become infected what is going too happen with the ships we normally sail?

Much like ipeeinthepool, I don’t find this at all disconcerting; it’s predictable and ought to be anticipated no matter the size of the ship. Cruising, at this time, is a high-risk activity.

[Ride-The-Waves]

The disconcerting aspect is that so many still go about thinking, and apparently believing, that COVID-19 is not to a threat to them, family or others - those they have  contact with.  Over 150,000 new cases in the US today, and over 1,400 deaths.  Even states with "disbeliever" governors are now mandating masks.  The new administration may follow Australia and New Zealand's lead with restrictions on movement and limits on numbers meeting together.  Professional and university sports teams have had to curtail practices and cancel some games 0 and these athletes are already isolated.  In the northern hemisphere with the onset of winter this could be very serious if some safety standards are not established across the country, funding provided for those who need assistance, and people held accountable.  This is coming from epidemiologists.  An effective vaccine will help at the end of a restricted period to stabilize and normalize protocols.  Until then, for get about cruising!  Sadly...  And hopefully the stores have stocks of TP and comfort food!

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ride-The-Waves

[SeaHunt]

Per The Points Guy (who is onboard)

 

[The_Big_M]

15 hours ago, d9704011 said:

Much like ipeeinthepool, I don’t find this at all disconcerting; it’s predictable and ought to be anticipated no matter the size of the ship. Cruising, at this time, is a high-risk activity.

 

It's not cruising that's a high risk activity. However, your passenger base is.

 

Taking on a majority US passenger base as Seadream did where the virus is widespread and uncontrolled, assures that you will get passengers with it onboard. 

 

OTOH, compare Dream cruises operating out of Taiwan and now Singapore without a single case, for 4 months. When you manage the virus, you can operate activities in a controlled way assuredly. When you don't manage it, you can't control anything around it.

[Ride-The-Waves]

In the meantime 10,000 people have signed up for a "mock" cruise with Royal Caribbean.  Whatever that implies.  Sea Dream is using significantly stricter protocols for screening passengers and crew over what CRG will be doing with a much larger and diverse group of people (Sea Dream I has 56 passengers and 66 crew on board).  Way too early for fake cruising as cases in the US spike over 150,000 each day.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ride-The-Waves

[OnTheJourney]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:17 PM, Ride-The-Waves said:

Disconcerting.  If a very small ship taking all these precautions and protocols can become infected what is going too happen with the ships we normally sail?

 

Totally agree. No matter how many protocols are put in place, a problem could likely be how people find a way to circumvent them. "If there's a will....."  

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by OnTheJourney

[OnTheJourney]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Way too early for fake cruising as cases in the US spike over 150,000 each day.

 

12 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

Taking on a majority US passenger base as Seadream did where the virus is widespread and uncontrolled, assures that you will get passengers with it onboard. 

 

 

It COULD be going better here, but there is too much disagreement on how the virus situation should be handled. 

[OnTheJourney]

13 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

And hopefully the stores have stocks of TP and comfort food!

 

Beginning to somewhat stock up again on TP and paper towels, especially since our local store once again is only allowing 1 pack (of paper towels) per family. Appliance orders are severely backordered. We have an order in with the local dealer for a dishwasher (specific model however) and might have to wait a few months. I suspect we'll see further disruptions and delays as more cases are arising and disrupting the transportation chain, etc. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by OnTheJourney

[ECCruise]

18 hours ago, SeaHunt said:

Per The Points Guy (who is onboard)

 

Currently that number is 7.  Out of a total of 53 pax.

[SeaHunt]

6 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Currently that number is 7.  Out of a total of 53 pax.

 

Yes and Ben and David (onboard) say "apparently all negative passengers will all be free to leave the ship and travel and fly home tomorrow". How can that be possible with more cases being reported? SMH.

 

[SeaHunt]

Ben & David were allowed on deck for some fresh air - seems some of the other passengers still don't "get it" 🙄

 

[Covepointcruiser]

You must don’t realize how special those passengers are.   Bad things like COVID would certainly never infect them.   At least in Maryland, everyone wears a mask indoors or when close to others outdoors since April.   Of course we do have some “special people” who wear masks below their nose.   Except for the areas with demonstrations or demonstrators we have kept the COVID rate lower than other states.

[hcat]

8 hours ago, OnTheJourney said:

 

Beginning to somewhat stock up again on TP and paper towels, especially since our local store once again is only allowing 1 pack (of paper towels) per family. Appliance orders are severely backordered. We have an order in with the local dealer for a dishwasher (specific model however) and might have to wait a few months. I suspect we'll see further disruptions and delays as more cases are arising and disrupting the transportation chain, etc. 

Try a National Chain for Appliances....even odd sizes.

Our dtr had a  special size glass cooktop on order with a fairly large  local  chain...It would be months before she "might"  get it ..4th on a waiting list. They grilled all summer, used hot plates,  and a baby bottle warmer,   The store mgr was not even sure it would ever arrive and could never get an answer from his supplier

 

They  ended up buying  it from Home Depot. It was delivered intact in less than 10 days, installed by an electrician and the local store gave her a complete refund although it was a special order.

 

Day to day issues are impacted  as well as gen health & prevention!

We are still good with  sanitizers, wipes and soap..just hope the tp lasts!

[OnTheJourney]

52 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

we do have some “special people” who wear masks below their nose.  

 

Yeah...gotta love those partial maskers. Wonder when they learned to both inhale and exhale through only their mouth but never the nose. I must have been absent the day those instructions were given out?  🤪