COVID-19 Surging Across Europe

[BND]

7 hours ago, ECCruise said:

There are some obvious answers to this, but if you would like the whole scientific explanation, you will find it below.  In summary, masks, stay at home orders, closures.  Common sense, really.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6937a6.htm

So, you're saying masks and stay at home order, closures, prevents the flu, but doesn't prevent Covid?  Think about that for a second.

Edited November 18, 2020 by BND

[SeaHunt]

"SeaDream Yacht Club announced that it has canceled its scheduled Caribbean cruises for the remainder of 2020 due to the recent COVID-19 incident aboard its cruise ship. The SeaDream 1 was sailing its first weekly cruise from Barbados and was the only cruise ship scheduled to offer Caribbean cruises this winter.

 

Barbados health authorities reported that seven passengers and two crew members tested positive at the end of last week for COVID-19. The cruise ship had a total of 53 passengers aboard and a crew of 66. 

 

“The company will now spend time to evaluate and see if it is possible to operate and have a high degree of certainty of not getting Covid,” the statement said. SeaDream noted that it successfully operated more than 20 sailings during the pandemic without any cases sailing its two small, luxury cruise ships in Norway in the summer and a trans-Atlantic crossing aboard the SeaDream 1 with passengers to reposition for the Caribbean Cruises. SeaDream also noted that “further improvements were made to protocols before the Barbados season.”

Despite requiring multiple negative PCR tests before the guests boarded, SeaDream said it was not sufficient to prevent the introduction of Covid-19 onboard. Passengers had been required to have a negative test before leaving home to fly to Barbados and a second negative test administered by the cruise line on the pier before boarding".

 

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/seadream-cancels-2020-caribbean-cruises-after-covid-19-outbreak

 

Also interesting (to me) from the rest of the article:

 

"The newspapers in Barbados reported that the passengers who tested positive were moved from the ship on November 13 to a quarantine facility on shore. Unconfirmed reports suggested that those passengers later chartered a private plane to leave the island".

 

$$$$$$!

[emmas gran]

12 hours ago, markeb said:

The complete lack of understanding of influenza epidemiology aside, what do US influenza rates have to do with COVID in Europe?

 

I wondered the same - topics vary from don't talk about religion , Sea Dream Covid cases and influenza in US . This is Covid -Europe thread

[Ride-The-Waves]

It was more my observation that AMCITs cannot travel to Europe to cruise because of EU restrictions.  That has not changed.  What has is that both continents are suffering from rapidly expanding and uncontrolled coronavirus breakout restricting travel in both directions.  Not that anyone in their right mind would even consider traveling from one center of contagion into another.  

 

Europe is handling COVID-19 much better than the US which is still suffering under a leadership void that considers COVID-19 nothing more than a common cold, if that.  With its "America First" perspective the US leadership has risen to the top of the list of countries with the worst COVID-19 response: over 250,000 Americans dead from and over 11million cases of this virulent virus.  Epidemiologists today are expecting the US to soon reach the infamous status of averaging 2,000 deaths per day while some politicians profess blindness to the crisis and decline to provide assistance to those in need.  

 

In the meantime we are not rescheduling any cruises or looking at being able to travel to Europe for vacations of any sort.  Good TV program on the Bernina Express in Switzerland yesterday.  It is apparently still running on the Swiss side but not on the Italian.  The Glacier Express will not begin its winter schedule until mid-December, agains because of COVID-19.  We did a late spring Glacier run three years ago and it was fabulous.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

Good overview of the COVID-19 crisis in Europe this morning, much of it coming from WHO's regional director:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-europe-death-who-second-wave-slowing/2020/11/19/09e29bfe-29cc-11eb-9c21-3cc501d0981f_story.html

 

- Someone in Europe dies from COVID-19 every 17 seconds this past week

- This was up 18 percent from the previous week

- COVID-19 deaths running 75 percent higher in Europe than in the US

- Rolling average on new cases per person per day is now higher in the US than Europe

- Small drop in new cases down to 1.8million from 2.0million - but over 28,000 new cases in one day in France alone

- Swiss and French intensive care beds are maximized

- Mask wearing is below 60 percent - WHO states that mask wearing is as effective as societal lockdown

- Good declines in cases in Belgium and the Czech Republic

- In Germany the number of new cases (22,609) declined following closures of bars and restaurants

 

[Arizona Wildcat]

6 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

It was more my observation that AMCITs cannot travel to Europe to cruise because of EU restrictions.  That has not changed.  What has is that both continents are suffering from rapidly expanding and uncontrolled coronavirus breakout restricting travel in both directions.  Not that anyone in their right mind would even consider traveling from one center of contagion into another.  

 

Europe is handling COVID-19 much better than the US which is still suffering under a leadership void that considers COVID-19 nothing more than a common cold, if that.  With its "America First" perspective the US leadership has risen to the top of the list of countries with the worst COVID-19 response: over 250,000 Americans dead from and over 11million cases of this virulent virus.  Epidemiologists today are expecting the US to soon reach the infamous status of averaging 2,000 deaths per day while some politicians profess blindness to the crisis and decline to provide assistance to those in need.  

 

In the meantime we are not rescheduling any cruises or looking at being able to travel to Europe for vacations of any sort.  Good TV program on the Bernina Express in Switzerland yesterday.  It is apparently still running on the Swiss side but not on the Italian.  The Glacier Express will not begin its winter schedule until mid-December, agains because of COVID-19.  We did a late spring Glacier run three years ago and it was fabulous.  

What is the leadership in the US?  For COVID it is Definately I would argue an issue for the state's.  In the spring Montana had almost no COVID while at the same time care homes in Washington were being ravaged.  A one size fits all did not and does not make sense.  Australia and Canada also have regulation at the State/Provincial or local level.  Things there worked better because in my opinion Americans are VERY independent and do not follow directions well.

In Europe which in total is about the size of the US, the rules for COVID vary from area to area within countries and from country to country.

Again this thread is about EUROPE, not the US.

[OnTheJourney]

25 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

What is the leadership in the US? 

Hmmmm......not sure I should even delve into this since it's highly controversial and the virus has been very much polliticized. Suffice it to say that the torch is soon to be passed. Some, though, would venture to question how much "leadership" has actually taken place in recent years. The individual state governors have basically had control over the guidelines as to dealing with covid restrictions, etc. Also controversial and little consistency across the board. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by OnTheJourney

[OnTheJourney]

27 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

in my opinion Americans are VERY independent and do not follow directions well.

 

That pretty much tells the story. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by OnTheJourney

[Ride-The-Waves]

Part of America's problem is not "independence."  Its more lack of sense of country which can be traced back to the end of the draft in 1973.  Many reasons for that, of course, much attributed to disillusionment with government.  Mistrust of government today is at an all time high.  Problem is that, as Pogo said, "them is us."  You get the government you elect - or don't elect.  The draft built a sense of national community or commitment or understanding, a national pride in solving problems together as a country.  I would not advocate returning to a draft, but as some who have served country for long periods have suggested some form of national service should be part of one's education.  Most American's today could not pass even the simplest citizenship test.

[ipeeinthepool]

10 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Part of America's problem is not "independence."  Its more lack of sense of country which can be traced back to the end of the draft in 1973.  Many reasons for that, of course, much attributed to disillusionment with government.  Mistrust of government today is at an all time high.  Problem is that, as Pogo said, "them is us."  You get the government you elect - or don't elect.  The draft built a sense of national community or commitment or understanding, a national pride in solving problems together as a country.  I would not advocate returning to a draft, but as some who have served country for long periods have suggested some form of national service should be part of one's education.  Most American's today could not pass even the simplest citizenship test.

 

No I don't think so.  The problem originates with identity politics.  The position that if you don't agree with me, you are a terrible human being and there is no compromise on anything.   No one ever gets 100 percent of what they want, everyone needs to re-learn the art of compromise.

[sfaaa]

47 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Part of America's problem is not "independence."  Its more lack of sense of country which can be traced back to the end of the draft in 1973.  Many reasons for that, of course, much attributed to disillusionment with government.  Mistrust of government today is at an all time high.  Problem is that, as Pogo said, "them is us."  You get the government you elect - or don't elect.  The draft built a sense of national community or commitment or understanding, a national pride in solving problems together as a country.  I would not advocate returning to a draft, but as some who have served country for long periods have suggested some form of national service should be part of one's education.  Most American's today could not pass even the simplest citizenship test.

This problem is the same in all western countries and not just an American problem. Many draftees were ineffective soldiers with discipline problems including open drug use, low morale,  insubordination and in some cases fragging. Not the best way to build a modern, effective and disciplined fighting force.

[grandgeezer]

35 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

This problem is the same in all western countries and not just an American problem. Many draftees were ineffective soldiers with discipline problems including open drug use, low morale,  insubordination and in some cases fragging. Not the best way to build a modern, effective and disciplined fighting force.

I spent 13 months in Viet Nam in the mid 1960s as a combat infantry man

(mos 11B10 for vets). Most of us were draftees and all I saw was some minor drug use. The morale was down some but I saw no insubordination or fragging. The morale problem was mostly caused by what was going on back in the states regarding the war. 

[sfaaa]

My apology if I offended anyone who answered the call and served. It was not my intention and I respect very much your service and scarifies. 

[emmas gran]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:31 AM, emmas gran said:

 

I wondered the same - topics vary from don't talk about religion , Sea Dream Covid cases and influenza in US . This is Covid -Europe thread

Sorry guys but now the Vietnam war-- I respect you but this is COVID/Europe thread

[MamaFej]

I am always eager to learn, even if the subject is tangential to the original intent of a thread. 

 

I have acquaintances (parents of friends)  who were to visit Vietnam in February, as a commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the husband's service there, I spoke to them quite a bit about a year ago, about their planned trip, and about the one I had planned to some of the same places, and others, that I should be on now. My father was stationed domestically with the Navy during the Vietnam conflict, but always on alert (I apologize if that is not the right term) to deploy during the early years of the conflict, if needed. He was honorably discharged around 1965, I believe. 

 

Thank you to all who contributed to my learning.

 

I understand and respect the concerns of those who would prefer that the thread stay on topic. 

[Gracie115]

11 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 Most American's today could not pass even the simplest citizenship test.

 

THIS is unfortunately so true.....

 

[OnTheJourney]

3 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

 

THIS is unfortunately so true.....

 

Yeah..or..even more amazing...school kids denying that the Holocaust even happened. This reportedly occurred in our county when a WWII vet visited a classroom to talk about his war experiences, etc. A student replied something about "there's no way that this actually could have taken place". Hopefully the story isn't really true, but I think it is and can believe it. As the article recalled it, the vet was simply dumbfounded and didn't even know how to respond. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by OnTheJourney

[Ride-The-Waves]

It been 47 years since the US ended the draft and 59 years since President Kennedy asked Americans "...what you can do for your country."  "Identity politics" is formed, in part, when citizens lose the sense of statehood/nationality.  Andrew Bacevich (West Point, COL USA (Ret), PhD, professor of international relations) describes what I call "faux patriotism" much better than I ever could:  https://www.commondreams.org/views/2011/07/28/cheap-grace-and-american-patriotism   Symbolism and "flag waving" without any actual effort to give back to your country, whichever country is your identity.

 

The COVID-19 pandemic in the US, and it appears now this may so in some other countries, has become a "me first" issue.  "Freedom" to do what you personally want, not "freedom" of the collective to protect everyone.  American myth of the rugged frontiersman is just that - myth.  The US west was settled by families who helped each other through difficult times, traveled together and shared food and shelter.  Humans are individuals - yes, but they cannot exist alone.  

 

Eschewing masks and other PPE is the antithesis of the human experience.  It's not "individualism" or the desire to identify with one or anther group.  That is politics.   The current US president claims he is for "America First" at the expense of all other humans.  Problem is that since the closure of the US frontier at the end of the 1890s the US has had to rely on international trade and movement of peoples to fuel its economy.  Today that is true for world commerce.  This of us who have traveled the seas know that the movement of cargo via large container and bulk carrier ships is vital to the world economy.  Global equities markets are intertwined.  Global health is critical to global trade.

 

We are all in this together.  It's a fight for all humans everywhere.  We will not be able to return to any sense of "normal" without everyone pitching in to the effort.   

 

My wife and I want to get back to traveling and even more so now to cruising.  We are judicious in the use of PPE wherever we go.  Yet I sense the virus encroaching on our lives: my spouse's beautician just reported that she in infected and now in isolation.  

 

Traveling to Europe is currently out of the question.  Air travel anywhere is dangerous (Kiwi report that a flight from Dubai to Aukland infected 7 people - all who tested negative before the flight (New Zealand quarantines arriving travelers)).  Vaccines are not a panacea - they will not solve the pandemic.  The  major cruise lines have not yet solved (or at least informed us) of how they expect to really keep us safe from COVID-19 while onboard.  

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 11/19/2020 at 4:30 PM, Ride-The-Waves said:

Part of America's problem is not "independence."  Its more lack of sense of country which can be traced back to the end of the draft in 1973.  Many reasons for that, of course, much attributed to disillusionment with government.  Mistrust of government today is at an all time high.  Problem is that, as Pogo said, "them is us."  You get the government you elect - or don't elect.  The draft built a sense of national community or commitment or understanding, a national pride in solving problems together as a country.  I would not advocate returning to a draft, but as some who have served country for long periods have suggested some form of national service should be part of one's education.  Most American's today could not pass even the simplest citizenship test.

Really?  The end of the end of the draft ended a sense of community?  Just like today, America was highly polarized.  Anti and pro war.  We're did have a sense of purpose against the Communists but you are talking about an event 47 years ago.  Most Americans were not born then.

Society for better and worse has changed.  People want more and more stuff and much today is disposable that one 50 years ago repaired.  

FWIW in Eastern Europe and many places in the World things are repaired and in small towns worldwide there is mostly a strong community value.

[OnTheJourney]

5 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

you are talking about an event 47 years ago.  Most Americans were not born then.

Explain....??  

[hcat]

Can  everyone please  stop bashing Americans and the USA ?   Esp disheartening  to see Americans joining  the chorus!

 

It is off topic  here and many posts are not within guidelines.

[markeb]

4 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

Explain....??  

 

The current US population (as of 2019) is around 328M. Of that, 23M were born before the end of WWII, 72M are boomers, born before 1964, and 65M are Gen X born before 1980. Even if I assign ALL of Gen X to 1980, that's 160M born since 1980, I get (328-160)/328=.49. Since probably at least half of those 65M were born within that last 47 years, then those born within the last 47 years would exceed 50%; if it's as much as 1/2, it's 60%.

 

Which again, has nothing to do with COVID in Europe...

[Arizona Wildcat]

7 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

The current US population (as of 2019) is around 328M. Of that, 23M were born before the end of WWII, 72M are boomers, born before 1964, and 65M are Gen X born before 1980. Even if I assign ALL of Gen X to 1980, that's 160M born since 1980, I get (328-160)/328=.49. Since probably at least half of those 65M were born within that last 47 years, then those born within the last 47 years would exceed 50%; if it's as much as 1/2, it's 60%.

 

Which again, has nothing to do with COVID in Europe...

The question, I think, was what did the ending of the draft in 1973 have to do with either Covid or the current state of anxiety in the US.

[markeb]

1 minute ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

The question, I think, was what did the ending of the draft in 1973 have to do with either Covid or the current state of anxiety in the US.

 

The "Most Americans were not born then" statement was bolded in the reply. I assumed that's what the explain comment referenced. Could be wrong.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

4 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

The question, I think, was what did the ending of the draft in 1973 have to do with either Covid or the current state of anxiety in the US.

Or this thread 

“COVID-19 Surging Across Europe”

😉

 

4 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said: