Vaccine proof not good enough

[PelicanBill]

If you're counting on the CDC to figure this out and SAFELY clear the cruise industry to restart, read this. It's shocking.  Pay attention to the detail on how they fumbled bringing the Princess Diamond people home.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cdc-response-speci/special-report-how-u-s-cdc-missed-chances-to-spot-covids-silent-spread-idUSKBN29R1E7?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

 

[Castaway Cowgirl]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:03 PM, HuliHuli said:

The thought that the USA would have an internet site with names of individuals and associated health information (vaccination status) that a cruise line could access is antithetical to the concept of patient privacy under the requirements of HIPAA (the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act).  Such information would fall under the definition of "Protected Health Information."  To wit:

 

"Protected Health Information. The Privacy Rule protects all "individually identifiable health information" held or transmitted by a covered entity or its business associate, in any form or media, whether electronic, paper, or oral. The Privacy Rule calls this information "protected health information (PHI)."

“Individually identifiable health information” is information, including demographic data, that relates to:

• the individual’s past, present or future physical or mental health or condition,
• the provision of health care to the individual, or
• the past, present, or future payment for the provision of health care to the individual,

and that identifies the individual or for which there is a reasonable basis to believe it can be used to identify the individual.  Individually identifiable health information includes many common identifiers (e.g., name, address, birth date, Social Security Number)."

I agree this will never happen.  

[sugcarol]

I am retired nurse. I feel that sailing with proof of vaccination is much more accurate than having to do covid testing which are notorious for false positives. If everyone on the ship, plane  has been vaccinated, what is the risk?

[EleventyBangBang]

And what if we recently had COVID, and can provide a positive antibodies test?

 

[ScratchTheRat]

On 1/16/2021 at 5:55 PM, Peachypooh said:

I received an unsolicited  call from Norwegian ( from a PCC that is new to me). I am Platinum. There were

two cruises I had put on hold but let expire because things are so up in the air I just didn't

want to commit. Anyway, he more or less asked me why I did this and if he can be of

any help to help me commit. I said that I am waiting to see what the new requirements for

boarding are going to be and also waiting until I am vaccinated. He told me that for now

they are requiring a negative covid test for everyone. I said that if I am vaccinated what do I

need that for? He said that NCL thinks it is easier to require a test rather than a vaccine.

I just said well when the vaccine is good enough I will make my plans. 

A vaccine stops you from getting sick, it doesn't stop you carrying and therefore spreading the virus to others. You can be COVID positive after the vaccine and be asymptomatic. You'd still bring the virus on board to infect others. Hence the negative test being the most important!

[ScratchTheRat]

16 hours ago, sugcarol said:

I am retired nurse. I feel that sailing with proof of vaccination is much more accurate than having to do covid testing which are notorious for false positives. If everyone on the ship, plane  has been vaccinated, what is the risk?

What about everyone in the port of call? Or anyone you're in contact with from the moment you leave your home til the ship? There's too many chances to pick it up.

[DCGuy64]

Just now, ScratchTheRat said:

A vaccine stops you from getting sick, it doesn't stop you carrying and therefore spreading the virus to others. You can be COVID positive after the vaccine and be asymptomatic. You'd still bring the virus on board to infect others. Hence the negative test being the most important!

Just a side note: you can RECOVER from COVID-19 and still test positive for the virus while not being contagious (and this is before a vaccination). How do I know this? Because my wife and I are in this same exact situation. There are so many different scenarios to consider (asymptomatic carrier, positive for antibodies, positive for COVID-19, recovered from COVID-19, vaccinated after recovering, vaccinated but never had symptoms, etc.) It's very difficult to know what anything means anymore, frankly.

[ScratchTheRat]

Just now, DCGuy64 said:

Just a side note: you can RECOVER from COVID-19 and still test positive for the virus while not being contagious (and this is before a vaccination). How do I know this? Because my wife and I are in this same exact situation. There are so many different scenarios to consider (asymptomatic carrier, positive for antibodies, positive for COVID-19, recovered from COVID-19, vaccinated after recovering, vaccinated but never had symptoms, etc.) It's very difficult to know what anything means anymore, frankly.

Yeah, it's a tough one with so many variables!

 

Basically, each line have to choose a policy and stick to it. Is it vaccine only? Is it COVID negative only? Choose one and stick with it. If people don't like it, they won't sail, better than currently when NOBODY can sail.

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, ScratchTheRat said:

Yeah, it's a tough one with so many variables!

 

Basically, each line have to choose a policy and stick to it. Is it vaccine only? Is it COVID negative only? Choose one and stick with it. If people don't like it, they won't sail, better than currently when NOBODY can sail.

Agreed, but my point is that with so many variables, how are border agents, airlines, excursion providers, cruise lines, hotels, restaurants, bars, etc supposed to make a policy that applies to everyone? It's a nightmare. Ex: My wife and I had to cancel a trip to the Dominican Republic earlier this month when we both came down with COVID. We've since recovered, but could test positive for several more weeks. We'd like to rebook our trip, but we have to deal with not just the airlines, but also the border patrol in the DR where they do random testing and if you're positive, you have to quarantine, EVEN IF YOU'VE RECOVERED AND ARE NO LONGER A THREAT. And we'd face a potential quarantine on our return to the US or possibly not be allowed to board a plane back home. Not going to travel given those odds, and I doubt we're alone. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in which the already struggling tourism industry faces more and more cancellations due to these constantly shifting and confusing policies. There are already hotel workers being laid off in Mexico and the DR due to cascading cancellations and local occupancy limits. As you've pointed out, even wearing a mask and/or getting vaccinated is no guarantee. Basically, we're screwed.

[ScratchTheRat]

1 minute ago, DCGuy64 said:

Agreed, but my point is that with so many variables, how are border agents, airlines, excursion providers, cruise lines, hotels, restaurants, bars, etc supposed to make a policy that applies to everyone? It's a nightmare. Ex: My wife and I had to cancel a trip to the Dominican Republic earlier this month when we both came down with COVID. We've since recovered, but could test positive for several more weeks. We'd like to rebook our trip, but we have to deal with not just the airlines, but also the border patrol in the DR where they do random testing and if you're positive, you have to quarantine, EVEN IF YOU'VE RECOVERED AND ARE NO LONGER A THREAT. And we'd face a potential quarantine on our return to the US or possibly not be allowed to board a plane back home. Not going to travel given those odds, and I doubt we're alone. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in which the already struggling tourism industry faces more and more cancellations due to these constantly shifting and confusing policies. There are already hotel workers being laid off in Mexico and the DR due to cascading cancellations and local occupancy limits. As you've pointed out, even wearing a mask and/or getting vaccinated is no guarantee. Basically, we're screwed.

 

We're all gonna have to put our big boy (or girl) pants on and deal with the fact that life isn't risk free. We can all do our best to protect ourselves as best we can but no plan is foolproof.

 

I will follow whatever rules are in place and take my risks, understanding those around me will do the same. We are all willing and able to look at some rules and decide if we're happy with them or not. Those who are anti maskers can choose not to cruise on masked cruises. Same with vaccines. 

[luckyinpa]

will doing all 'whatever' happens in the future. mean no more masks. no more 6 feet, and letting me wander a foreign countryside all on my own? if not, i dont see the point. id hate to go thru all the 'medicine' then be given the SAME exact restrictions in place today. thats pointless.

 

also a guarantee that a covid case/s wont cut my trip short etc is needed. there are enough non covid emergencies that happen on cruises that if this continues to make ships turn around and cut short trips or keep people in their rooms 14 days that theres no way id get on a ship again.  plus cannot imagine ships refunding people 75% of their fare they paid cause the trip was cut short, and them continuing to be profitable. wouldnt make sense for them to reopen either

[DCGuy64]

10 minutes ago, ScratchTheRat said:

 

We're all gonna have to put our big boy (or girl) pants on and deal with the fact that life isn't risk free. We can all do our best to protect ourselves as best we can but no plan is foolproof.

 

I will follow whatever rules are in place and take my risks, understanding those around me will do the same. We are all willing and able to look at some rules and decide if we're happy with them or not. Those who are anti maskers can choose not to cruise on masked cruises. Same with vaccines. 

Well, I hope you have deep pockets, because in order to sail at all, the cruise lines are gonna charge a premium to people like you in order to get the ship off the dock. The way I see it, there are just too many people saying "no" to cruising for now. You might be alone on that ship. Good luck to you. (and I don't know if you meant it this way, but I hope you aren't implying that I'm an anti-masker or "choose not to cruise on masked cruises." I'd be fine with those things) My point is just that I might not be allowed on at all, through no fault of my own.

[ScratchTheRat]

2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Well, I hope you have deep pockets, because in order to sail at all, the cruise lines are gonna charge a premium to people like you in order to get the ship off the dock. The way I see it, there are just too many people saying "no" to cruising for now. You might be alone on that ship. Good luck to you. (and I don't know if you meant it this way, but I hope you aren't implying that I'm an anti-masker or "choose not to cruise on masked cruises." I'd be fine with those things) My point is just that I might not be allowed on at all, through no fault of my own.

No no, not at all! 🙂

 

I have every respect for you and any choices you make my friend.

 

What I was saying was that we all need to make choices based on what we are comfortable with. With cruises likely sailing at 50% capacity when they resume, I'm pretty sure no matter what rules the lines go by, they will fill their cabins!

[DCGuy64]

3 minutes ago, ScratchTheRat said:

No no, not at all! 🙂

 

I have every respect for you and any choices you make my friend.

 

What I was saying was that we all need to make choices based on what we are comfortable with. With cruises likely sailing at 50% capacity when they resume, I'm pretty sure no matter what rules the lines go by, they will fill their cabins!

Thanks. I agree with you that we need to make choices based on what we are comfortable with. But the choices we make are necessarily tied to things like company policy and laws which we have no control over. I might say I'm comfortable traveling now, but US law (or the laws of the countries to which I'd like to travel) might prevent me from going there. And the airlines and/or cruise lines may have policies in place that, frankly, discriminate against me and my wife because we caught the virus and recovered from it. I'm sure that the heads of the major cruise lines are looking at these conditions right now and deciding whether it's worth the risk to sail at all. While it's true that large cruise ships can remain profitable while sailing at less than full capacity, there's a break-even point below which they'd rather not go at all. Only time will tell whether they resume sailing or not. I'm just glad I don't own stock in any of these companies, because I'd be very nervous right now if I did!

[sugcarol]

3 hours ago, ScratchTheRat said:

What about everyone in the port of call? Or anyone you're in contact with from the moment you leave your home til the ship? There's too many chances to pick it up.

But if you are vaccinated and the people on the ship or plane are vaccinated, then it doesnt matter if you are exposed to it, you cant pass it to another vaccinated person. If a person does not want to be vaccinated then that is their choice, but they just wont be allowed to fly or sail. To me, that is the simplest solution.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by sugcarol
Spelling

[tosteve1]

1 minute ago, sugcarol said:

But if you are vaccinated and the people on the ship or plane are vaccinated, then it doesnt matter if you are exposed to it, you cant pass it to another vaccinated person. If a person does not want to be vaccinated then that is their choice, they just wont be allowed to fly or sail. To me, that is the simplest solution.

 

Yes, vaccines should be required for cruisers and ship staff. No question. As for the hypothetical question of vaccinated people still spreading the virus, I would like to hear of examples of other vaccines where this has occurred in significant numbers. It must be exceptionally rare to the point of being a trivial occurrence. Polio comes to mind but largely eliminated from the majority of the world. Flu vaccine doesn’t count due to its low efficacy. As stated above, there is no zero risk situation. If zero risk is the goal, say goodbye to traveling again!

[ScratchTheRat]

47 minutes ago, sugcarol said:

But if you are vaccinated and the people on the ship or plane are vaccinated, then it doesnt matter if you are exposed to it, you cant pass it to another vaccinated person. If a person does not want to be vaccinated then that is their choice, but they just wont be allowed to fly or sail. To me, that is the simplest solution.

 

You can actually pass it to another vaccinated person, it just wont get them sick.

 

But think of those in the ports of call, you can certainly give it to them!

[ScratchTheRat]

34 minutes ago, tosteve1 said:

Yes, vaccines should be required for cruisers and ship staff. No question. As for the hypothetical question of vaccinated people still spreading the virus, I would like to hear of examples of other vaccines where this has occurred in significant numbers. It must be exceptionally rare to the point of being a trivial occurrence. Polio comes to mind but largely eliminated from the majority of the world. Flu vaccine doesn’t count due to its low efficacy. As stated above, there is no zero risk situation. If zero risk is the goal, say goodbye to traveling again!

I am saying the opposite of this.

 

I am saying that we have to accept some risk as the vaccine isnt a magic silver bullet.

[roger001]

There has not yet been made a determination as to whether a vaccinated person can then pass the virus.  Several medical opinions I read said they think that to be very unlikely.  But, just not determined yet.  Factually, don't know.  

[sugcarol]

27 minutes ago, ScratchTheRat said:

You can actually pass it to another vaccinated person, it just wont get them sick.

 

But think of those in the ports of call, you can certainly give it to them!

Then they should get vaccinated too. We are all  responsible for our own health. If a person doesn't want the vaccine then that is their problem and their risk. The only way to control is with the vaccine. You can wear 5 masks and stay 20 feet away and it wont protect. 

[ScratchTheRat]

11 minutes ago, sugcarol said:

Then they should get vaccinated too. We are all  responsible for our own health. If a person doesn't want the vaccine then that is their problem and their risk. The only way to control is with the vaccine. You can wear 5 masks and stay 20 feet away and it wont protect. 

It's not that simple.

 

Do you really think the poor folk working for $2 an hour in Belize can get easy access to a vaccine?

 

I'm a healthy middle class white man and I can't so what chance in hell is there for them?

[sugcarol]

Im sorry, but we are all responsible for ourselves. If people cant or wont protect themselves then they cant blame others for giving it to them. Our lives changed drastically when this curse started, we do what we can to fight it. I have done all I can do to protect myself. There will be many, many people that will not be able to do what they once did, sad but true.

[ziggyuk]

19 minutes ago, sugcarol said:

Im sorry, but we are all responsible for ourselves. If people cant or wont protect themselves then they cant blame others for giving it to them. Our lives changed drastically when this curse started, we do what we can to fight it. I have done all I can do to protect myself. There will be many, many people that will not be able to do what they once did, sad but true.

 

That has to be one of the most entitled, me, me, me statements I have ever heard
Think yourself lucky you like in a rich western country, it's not all about you.

[ScratchTheRat]

10 hours ago, ziggyuk said:

 

That has to be one of the most entitled, me, me, me statements I have ever heard
Think yourself lucky you like in a rich western country, it's not all about you.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

If you replace COVID with any other illness, it becomes clear how heartless that statement is!

 

It's like saying "A child born with cancer is at fault for it themselves" - The whole point of the lockdown and wearing masks is NOT to protect ourselves, it's to protect OTHERS. The masks are to stop your breath getting out and infecting others.

 

If you're focused solely on yourself, the world will never be back to normal!

[ziggyuk]

45 minutes ago, ScratchTheRat said:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

If you replace COVID with any other illness, it becomes clear how heartless that statement is!

 

It's like saying "A child born with cancer is at fault for it themselves" - The whole point of the lockdown and wearing masks is NOT to protect ourselves, it's to protect OTHERS. The masks are to stop your breath getting out and infecting others.

 

If you're focused solely on yourself, the world will never be back to normal!

 

It's worse than that, we are talking about a vacation!

The statement is... If I kill others who are unable to get a vaccine, well its their lookout! I'm on vacation and got my vaccine!