NCL may pull out of Florida over DeSantis' rules forbidding proof of vaccination

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

@KennyFla Well said, buddy. How people can blame the cruise lines for not complying with rules which are clearly self-contradictory, arbitrary and outrageous is beyond me. Putting the mask back on between bites/sips? Are they out of their minds? I wouldn't comply, either, it's ridiculous.

Please tell me where in the CDC requirements that you have to put the mask on between bites/sips.  The intent, if you are reading it in any reasonable state of mind, is to prevent what has happened for months on planes, where a person takes 6 hours to finish the 20 peanuts in the little bag, and keeps their mask off "because I'm eating".

[DCGuy64]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Please tell me where in the CDC requirements that you have to put the mask on between bites/sips.  The intent, if you are reading it in any reasonable state of mind, is to prevent what has happened for months on planes, where a person takes 6 hours to finish the 20 peanuts in the little bag, and keeps their mask off "because I'm eating".

That came from an interview with Frank del Rio and likely refers to this section of the Covid-19 operations manual:

"While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order."

 

And yeah, the TSA actually said that.

https://www.wishtv.com/news/national/man-kicked-off-flight-for-not-wearing-mask-between-bites-of-twizzlers/

 

CDC, TSA, take your pick of the alphabet soup of Federal agencies micromanaging everything down to how you eat. Good Lord..

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, DCGuy64 said:

That came from an interview with Frank del Rio and likely refers to this section of the Covid-19 operations manual:

"While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order."

 

And yeah, the TSA actually said that.

https://www.wishtv.com/news/national/man-kicked-off-flight-for-not-wearing-mask-between-bites-of-twizzlers/

 

CDC, TSA, take your pick of the alphabet soup of Federal agencies micromanaging everything down to how you eat. Good Lord..

Well, I certainly don't think the CDC is responsible for how the TSA interprets a requirement, and it certainly doesn't affect Mr. Del Rio's business.  And, yes, as I said, while the CDC sets the requirements, the industry is supposed to set the how, and rather than lash out in fury about something that should have been planned for months ago by Del Rio, he could set up the company's plan with definitions of "brief period" and "extended meal service or beverage consumption".  That would be the how.  They don't even want to explain the how of vaccination mandate, in order to get things dialed back.

[DCGuy64]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, I certainly don't think the CDC is responsible for how the TSA interprets a requirement, and it certainly doesn't affect Mr. Del Rio's business.  And, yes, as I said, while the CDC sets the requirements, the industry is supposed to set the how, and rather than lash out in fury about something that should have been planned for months ago by Del Rio, he could set up the company's plan with definitions of "brief period" and "extended meal service or beverage consumption".  That would be the how.  They don't even want to explain the how of vaccination mandate, in order to get things dialed back.

It has been reported that the CDC will appoint people to sail on cruises and oversee whether passengers and crew are adhering to protocols. It's not too much of a stretch to say they'll be looking to see how long people remove their masks in order to eat and drink. Take too long, and you'll get in trouble. This is Stasi-style snooping, folks. Your tax dollars at work.

[KennyFla]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, I certainly don't think the CDC is responsible for how the TSA interprets a requirement, and it certainly doesn't affect Mr. Del Rio's business.  And, yes, as I said, while the CDC sets the requirements, the industry is supposed to set the how, and rather than lash out in fury about something that should have been planned for months ago by Del Rio, he could set up the company's plan with definitions of "brief period" and "extended meal service or beverage consumption".  That would be the how.  They don't even want to explain the how of vaccination mandate, in order to get things dialed back.

I posted this on the MSC board.  If MSC is not currently sailing out of the US, after sailing out of Europe since August, if they can not follow the CSO no one can.

 

The fact is it is unworkable.  The cruise lines have offered vaccinated cruises the CDC won't acknowledge.  This is ALL on the CDC.  HAL just announced today resumption out of Greece.

 

The rest of this squabbling is smoke and mirrors.  Cover is supplied by a slanted media.

Edited May 10, 2021 by KennyFla

[chengkp75]

52 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

It has been reported that the CDC will appoint people to sail on cruises and oversee whether passengers and crew are adhering to protocols. It's not too much of a stretch to say they'll be looking to see how long people remove their masks in order to eat and drink. Take too long, and you'll get in trouble. This is Stasi-style snooping, folks. Your tax dollars at work.

If you really believe the CDC will have the money, and the desire to have people placed on cruise ships for "mask police", you really need to check your tin-foil hat at the counter.  They will have auditors during simulated cruises, and on some restricted cruises, doing snapshot audits, not on a full time basis, just like they come onboard for VSP inspections.  And, the cruise lines are free to hire their own third party auditors in place of the CDC, as Carnival Corp has announced.

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

I posted this on the MSC board.  If MSC is not currently sailing out of the US, after sailing out of Europe since August, if they can not follow the CSO no one can.

 

The fact is it is unworkable.  The cruise lines have offered vaccinated cruises the CDC won't acknowledge.  This is ALL on the CDC.  HAL just announced today resumption out of Greece.

 

The rest of this squabbling is smoke and mirrors.  Cover is supplied by a slanted media.

Has MSC submitted their action plan to the CDC for approval?  Have they obtained the port/service agreements?  Have the cruise lines outlined how they will set up this vaccine mandate, or how they will verify it?  This is what the CDC has not acknowledged; how the cruise lines will actually get there.  The cruise lines are still offering "promises" of vaccinated cruises, without any plan on how to do it.

[DCGuy64]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If you really believe the CDC will have the money, and the desire to have people placed on cruise ships for "mask police", you really need to check your tin-foil hat at the counter.  They will have auditors during simulated cruises, and on some restricted cruises, doing snapshot audits, not on a full time basis, just like they come onboard for VSP inspections.  And, the cruise lines are free to hire their own third party auditors in place of the CDC, as Carnival Corp has announced.

It's a relief to hear you say that, @chengkp75. I hope it will calm the fears of our fellow CC posters who claim they're certain loads of Americans will be permanently banned from cruise ships for failing to keep masked up all of the time (except when in their cabins). I think people who argue that have tin foil hats of their own. As I say on here from time to time, I'm here just to give my opinions, not to convince others or change others' minds. If people don't agree with me, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. What kind of pathetic person would I be if other people's opinions of me on a freaking cruise forum were the foremost thing in my mind? That would be sad.

[KennyFla]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Has MSC submitted their action plan to the CDC for approval?  Have they obtained the port/service agreements?  Have the cruise lines outlined how they will set up this vaccine mandate, or how they will verify it?  This is what the CDC has not acknowledged; how the cruise lines will actually get there.  The cruise lines are still offering "promises" of vaccinated cruises, without any plan on how to do it.

Other countries seem happy with the cruise lines protocols.  I guess the CDC just knows better than everyone else.

 

 

[DCGuy64]

6 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

Other countries seem happy with the cruise lines protocols.

This is a great point. MSC has had fantastic success sailing the Mediterranean since last August without implementing the kind of strict protocols demanded by the CDC. What does the CDC know that European authorities don't? How has MSC done so well without requiring vaccines, setting up laboratories on board, coordinating with local hospitals in every port, and without simulated sailings?

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

That came from an interview with Frank del Rio and likely refers to this section of the Covid-19 operations manual:

"While the Order permits temporarily removing a mask for brief periods of time while eating or drinking, removal of the mask for extended meal service or beverage consumption would constitute a violation of this Order."

 

 

That's Frank Del Rio's hyperbole, not an accurate interpretation of the cruise rule.  He says a lot of stuff that's basically theatrics for the media.

[harkinmr]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

It has been reported that the CDC will appoint people to sail on cruises and oversee whether passengers and crew are adhering to protocols. It's not too much of a stretch to say they'll be looking to see how long people remove their masks in order to eat and drink. Take too long, and you'll get in trouble. This is Stasi-style snooping, folks. Your tax dollars at work.

Such drama! 🙄

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, KennyFla said:

Other countries seem happy with the cruise lines protocols.  I guess the CDC just knows better than everyone else.

 

 

 

There are those you will never convince that the cruise lines are worthy of anything, especially cruising.  It's a waste of time.

[At Sea At Peace]

9 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

That's Frank Del Rio's hyperbole, not an accurate interpretation of the cruise rule.  He says a lot of stuff that's basically theatrics for the media.

 

Such drama.  😲

[DCGuy64]

Just now, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Such drama.  😲

Right? FdR's comments are theatrics, but apparently Dr Rochelle "Impending Doom" Wolensky's aren't.

🙄

[At Sea At Peace]

13 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Right? FdR's comments are theatrics, but apparently Dr Rochelle "Impending Doom" Wolensky's aren't.

🙄

 

Yep.

 

It's getting to the point where, if there isn't a noticeable change, the continued wearing of masks and distancing by fully vaccinated people, and the draconian requirement to continue such after vaccinations, there is no blame to the unvaccinated who are choosing to wait and see.

 

If there is no benefit, no relative change in required behavior of those vaccinated and those not vaccinated then those requiring the continued restricted behavior are the ones responsible for the fall off in those seeking the vaccinations.

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, At Sea At Peace said:

It's getting to the point where, if there isn't a noticeable change, the continued wearing of masks and distancing by fully vaccinated people, and the draconian requirement to continue such after vaccinations, there is no blame to the unvaccinated who are choosing to wait and see.

So, how do you identify those who are vaccinated or not?  Do you wear a large, red "C" on your shirt?

[DCGuy64]

9 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

If there is no benefit, no relative change in required behavior of those vaccinated and those not vaccinated then those requiring the continued restricted behavior are the ones responsible for the fall off in those seeking the vaccinations.

Bingo. This right here.

It's another case of the law of unintended consequences:

Step 1: Get as many people vaccinated as possible so life can return to normal.

Step 2: Tell people that mask wearing, social distancing and other restrictions will still remain in place even after people are vaccinated.

Step 3: The unvaccinated "fence sitters" decide "what's the point?" and don't get vaccinated.

Step 4: Blame the fence sitters for not getting vaccinated.

Good grief!

[At Sea At Peace]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, how do you identify those who are vaccinated or not?  Do you wear a large, red "C" on your shirt?

 

Why would I need to identify anyone else to determine if "they" are vaccinated?

 

We are told that the vaccines work.  

 

As far as a shirt?  What the heck is a red "C?"  Wouldn't a symbol of vaccination be a "V?"

 

Which, IMO, that is not required either.

 

[sr4mjc]

I saw a person at Magic Kingdom last weekend wearing a Mickey pin with 'Vaccinated' on it.  Guess they just wanted everyone to know. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by sr4mjc

[skywonder]

8 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Bingo. This right here.

It's another case of the law of unintended consequences:

Step 1: Get as many people vaccinated as possible so life can return to normal.

Step 2: Tell people that mask wearing, social distancing and other restrictions will still remain in place even after people are vaccinated.

Step 3: The unvaccinated "fence sitters" decide "what's the point?" and don't get vaccinated.

Step 4: Blame the fence sitters for not getting vaccinated.

Good grief!

So true, the whole thing is ridicules and people keep buying into it lol.

[KennyFla]

This just in:

 

A stunning New York Times report claims that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's estimate that the risk of coronavirus transmission while outdoors is around 10% is greatly exaggerated. 

The CDC has cited the estimate to back up its recommendation that vaccinated individuals do away with masks in certain outdoor situations, but should keep wearing masks during others.

According to the Times, the 10% benchmark is based "partly on a misclassification" of some virus transmission in Singapore at various construction sites that may have actually taken place in indoor settings. Singapore also classified settings that were a mix of indoors and outdoors as outdoors, including construction building sites, the

 

Can we get the CSO dropped or amended for vaccinated cruises?

Edited May 11, 2021 by KennyFla

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, KennyFla said:

This just in:

 

A stunning New York Times report claims that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's estimate that the risk of coronavirus transmission while outdoors is around 10% is greatly exaggerated. 

The CDC has cited the estimate to back up its recommendation that vaccinated individuals do away with masks in certain outdoor situations, but should keep wearing masks during others.

According to the Times, the 10% benchmark is based "partly on a misclassification" of some virus transmission in Singapore at various construction sites that may have actually taken place in indoor settings. Singapore also classified settings that were a mix of indoors and outdoors as outdoors, including construction building sites, the

 

 

That article is REALLY worth reading.

If people who have bought into that 10% outdoor transmission figure continue to hold that view even though the scientific data shows it's exaggerated 10-fold, that'll tell me whether those people truly believe science or only when the science affirms their own beliefs.

 

 

[KennyFla]

17 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

That article is REALLY worth reading.

If people who have bought into that 10% outdoor transmission figure continue to hold that view even though the scientific data shows it's exaggerated 10-fold, that'll tell me whether those people truly believe science or only when the science affirms their own beliefs.

 

 

If I read the article correctly the CDC based the outdoor guidelines of estimates from a construction site in Singapore, that was actually indoors.  The CDC defenders will have a hard time with this.

 

Can we get back to our lives now?

Edited May 11, 2021 by KennyFla

[At Sea At Peace]

56 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

That article is REALLY worth reading.

If people who have bought into that 10% outdoor transmission figure continue to hold that view even though the scientific data shows it's exaggerated 10-fold, that'll tell me whether those people truly believe science or only when the science affirms their own beliefs.

 

 

 

It could be exaggerated even more than 10-fold; i.e., like 10 times 10-fold.  😲  Sadly, this continued disclosure of the false guidance by the CDC (and the silent U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases head) will further suppress the willingness of those not vaccinated to get vaccinated.  

 

"Epidemiologists who spoke to the Times say the actual rate of outdoor transmission is less than 1% and may even be below 0.1%. If outdoor transmission does occur, it happens in crowded places or during close conversation, the Times' David Leonhardt reported.