CDC says no more masks for the vaccinated, so now what?

[ltcpda]

Here in FL are awaiting a judge's ruling on our governor's law against vaccine passports.  

[nocl]

3 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Yes, my thought is that we are only talking about cruises in the nearest future - requiring passengers be vaccinated and relaxing rules. I don't know at all how long this will last - ?maybe until the CSO expires? That's about enough time to get information from the original vaccine study participants about durability of immunity, although the only way that can really be judged is by rising cases within the study cohort, we already know that the measurable humoral immunity wanes, we don't know when or if actual protection wanes. Also time to get children vaccinated.

 

If a cruiseline chooses to go forward without "95% vaccination" (?Carnival, ?Disney), they will have to do the test cruises from the earlier guidelines and will have to come up with some way to distinguish vaccinated from non-vacced passengers. That all sounds like a big mess, so yes, my assumption is that if the financials of the cruise line allow it,everyone will be expected to be vaccinated. I think that will work for Celebrity and other adult predominant lines - I think they will work out some of the protocols for their sister lines in the larger groups.

As far as testing I like what MSC did this last year.  Everyone had to take an antigen test at the pier. If anyone tested positive they did a PCR test to confirm.  The odds of a false positive on both is extremely low.

[Bluewake]

2 hours ago, ltcpda said:

Here in FL are awaiting a judge's ruling on our governor's law against vaccine passports.  

The federal judge hearing the case ruled that the matter must go to formal mediation. He ordered attorneys for the state of Florida and those representing the CDC to do so and gave them until June 1st.  Seems to be a rather tight timeline.

 

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/floridas-lawsuit-against-cdc-over-cruise-lines-sent-to-mediation 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bluewake

[wrk2cruise]

38 minutes ago, Bluewake said:

The federal judge hearing the case ruled that the matter must go to formal mediation. He ordered attorneys for the state of Florida and those representing the CDC to do so and gave them until June 1st.  Seems to be a rather tight timeline.

 

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/floridas-lawsuit-against-cdc-over-cruise-lines-sent-to-mediation 

I don't believe this case had anything to do with vaccine passports.   It was a case to get an injunction against the CDC and the CSO.

 

I've not heard of a case challenging the FL law preventing requiring proof of vaccination.  Anyone have a link?

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Bluewake said:

The federal judge hearing the case ruled that the matter must go to formal mediation. He ordered attorneys for the state of Florida and those representing the CDC to do so and gave them until June 1st.  Seems to be a rather tight timeline.

 

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/floridas-lawsuit-against-cdc-over-cruise-lines-sent-to-mediation 

That case has nothing to do with the Florida law preventing vaccine passports.

 

That case is the suit from Florida trying to overturn the CSO.

[Oville]

7 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

Masks required,  walking outside?  What a joke at any time.  

There were only a few places on Cape Cod and the Islands that did this.  It was linked with contact tracing and found P-town Commercial Ave, Main St Nantucket and maybe Chatham on the Cape had issues.  I could be wrong about Chatham but P-town and Nantucket I remember clearly.

[NMTraveller]

8 hours ago, nocl said:

It seems like you are assuming that the ships are going to require vaccination and the only unvaccinated will be those that lie on their boarding documents.

 

I will remind you that at this time the only major cruise line company that has said that they will require vaccination for cruises from the US is NCL. And that they have not submitted the documentation to the CDC that legally commits them to do so. Putting even more doubt on that stand is that NCL has sent out letters asking for volunteers for test cruises.  Something that would not be needed if they are going the fully vaccinated (atleast the 95/98%) route.

 

Neither of the other companies (RCL or CCL) have made a commitment in one direction or another.  Until they do we cannot eliminate that cruises will depart the US that do not require vaccination.

 

That is why I made the comment concerning the gap that if you have a cruise that does not require vaccination and therefore have a substantial percentage of unvaccinated on board, and do not test those vaccinated you do have an area of exposure for the virus to enter the environment and then have an opportunity for transmission.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming 1. that the cruise lines will require vaccination or 2. that the relaxed rules for those vaccinated on board (masking, excursions, testing) will automatically apply to all cruises.

 

The CDC stated that the cruise line could apply those measures to those vaccinated at their option.  Which would mean that they would have to address in their plan for cruises how exactly that would be managed on board.  Not that they would automatically apply to all vaccinated on all cruises.

You come across as anti vaccination.  You split hairs over two extraordinary vaccines as not being 100%.  Yet they are 90 some percent.  These are some of the best vaccines we have seen to date.

 

The only 100% guarantee is death and taxes.

 

For myself I will not worry about the low probabilities.

Edited May 20, 2021 by NMTraveller

[nocl]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

You come across as anti vaccination.  You split hairs over two extraordinary vaccines as not being 100%.  Yet they are 90 some percent.  These are some of the best vaccines we have seen to date.

 

The only 100% guarantee is death and taxes.

Actually I am pro vaccine

 

But I also know the limitations of the vaccines.

 

In this case the issue is not about fully vaccinated cruises, but instead that the cruise lines have not committed to fully vaccinated cruises out of the US.  People are acting like the decision is made and that cruises from the US will be fully vaccinated.

 

My points are that those decisions have not been made and communicated.  The cruise lines have not filed the paper work that would make them obligated to require vaccination.

 

In the case of a cruise that is not fully vaccinated, but where those that are not vaccinated are not tested, does create the potential of a vaccinated individual with asymptomatic illness that makes it on board could easily spread the illness to those that are unvaccinated on board.

 

The data from the UK study with both AZ and Pfizer was pretty clear that while vaccines reduce the spread in the case of those living in the same household the reduction was only 40-50% with vaccinated vs unvaccinated individual as the initial case.  The only place that has demonstrated higher spread than people living in the same household is cruise ships.

 

Not an issue if they require everyone to be fully vaccinated (for practical purposes I consider the 95/98% level to be fully vaccinated) However, if they do not require everyone to be vaccinated then they should test everyone boarding the ship.

[TeeRick]

9 hours ago, nocl said:

Actually I am pro vaccine

 

But I also know the limitations of the vaccines.

 

In this case the issue is not about fully vaccinated cruises, but instead that the cruise lines have not committed to fully vaccinated cruises out of the US.  People are acting like the decision is made and that cruises from the US will be fully vaccinated.

 

My points are that those decisions have not been made and communicated.  The cruise lines have not filed the paper work that would make them obligated to require vaccination.

 

In the case of a cruise that is not fully vaccinated, but where those that are not vaccinated are not tested, does create the potential of a vaccinated individual with asymptomatic illness that makes it on board could easily spread the illness to those that are unvaccinated on board.

 

The data from the UK study with both AZ and Pfizer was pretty clear that while vaccines reduce the spread in the case of those living in the same household the reduction was only 40-50% with vaccinated vs unvaccinated individual as the initial case.  The only place that has demonstrated higher spread than people living in the same household is cruise ships.

 

Not an issue if they require everyone to be fully vaccinated (for practical purposes I consider the 95/98% level to be fully vaccinated) However, if they do not require everyone to be vaccinated then they should test everyone boarding the ship.

You are making points about cruises and cruiselines that are not fully vaccinated or do not require vaccines at all.  Fair points.  Those are very risky cruises until the pandemic is over IMO.  Agree with you.  But I believe some of us have really been trying to focus here on the fully vaccinated cruises or very near fully vaccinated cruises (95-100%).  Those cruises are what I consider very low risk to those of us vaccinated.  I never said zero risk which of course is not achievable.  Yes I agree that if they allow 1-5% non-vaccinated on board they should be tested and monitored.  And should wear masks on board and off the ship.  As you said before, the simplest thing for all of us is to require 100% vaccination for now.  The CDC has created the wiggle room at this point but the cruise lines requiring 100% will be the ones that are the absolute safest.  

[nocl]

7 hours ago, TeeRick said:

You are making points about cruises and cruiselines that are not fully vaccinated or do not require vaccines at all.  Fair points.  Those are very risky cruises until the pandemic is over IMO.  Agree with you.  But I believe some of us have really been trying to focus here on the fully vaccinated cruises or very near fully vaccinated cruises (95-100%).  Those cruises are what I consider very low risk to those of us vaccinated.  I never said zero risk which of course is not achievable.  Yes I agree that if they allow 1-5% non-vaccinated on board they should be tested and monitored.  And should wear masks on board and off the ship.  As you said before, the simplest thing for all of us is to require 100% vaccination for now.  The CDC has created the wiggle room at this point but the cruise lines requiring 100% will be the ones that are the absolute safest.  

Once the cruise lines actually commit to 100% or atleast the 95/98% threshold I will agree with you.  But until that commitment is made and locked in one must still consider what happens if they do not go that way and vaccinations are not required to cruise.

[TeeRick]

10 minutes ago, nocl said:

Once the cruise lines actually commit to 100% or atleast the 95/98% threshold I will agree with you.  But until that commitment is made and locked in one must still consider what happens if they do not go that way and vaccinations are not required to cruise.

It seems like we are saying the same thing already.