Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids

[sc4125]

I have an August cruise booked on the Mardi Gras.  I am vaccinated, but really don't want to go if it means I have to wear a mask every minute and deal with socially distancing if CCL isn't allowed to ask who is and who isn't vaccinated.  At this point, my emails said that Carnival is going to require 95% vaccinated but it was before the judge's decision.  

 

So, will I be allowed to get a full refund if they change the rules?  I have no interest in cruising if it means wearing a mask and socially distancing, or getting stuck in my cabin because the unvaxed test positive.

[MrMarc]

1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

Misinformation spread intentionally or unintentionally that masks protect the wearer. No, masks help protect other people from the mask wearer. Nothing is 100% effective which is why a multi-layer approach was and is needed.

I believe they have found that a mask provides a minimal amount of protection to the wearer, but it

s main purpose is to put a hurdle in place that the virus has to go over to spread.

[sailingships]

2 minutes ago, sc4125 said:

I have an August cruise booked on the Mardi Gras.  I am vaccinated, but really don't want to go if it means I have to wear a mask every minute and deal with socially distancing if CCL isn't allowed to ask who is and who isn't vaccinated.  At this point, my emails said that Carnival is going to require 95% vaccinated but it was before the judge's decision.  

 

So, will I be allowed to get a full refund if they change the rules?  I have no interest in cruising if it means wearing a mask and socially distancing, or getting stuck in my cabin because the unvaxed test positive.

Which week in August? The final day for cancelling with full refund for Aug 14 is next Tuesday, June 21, so the 21st and the 28th should be later in the month and July.

[Joebucks]

20 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

It is not, and never has been about stopping individual viruses, it is to decrease and limit the spread of small droplets.  Individual viruses do not create a contagious load, its the aerosols, which the masks are very good at decreasing.  And they have always said it was not perfect, just a barrier to help prevent spreading.  Then you add social distancing as another "hurdle" that the virus has to go over to spread. If you want to see if it works, put a mask on, put your hand in front of it and blow air out.  Now do the same thing without a mask.  You just proved that masks help to stop the spread.

 

Where does it say masks stopped aerosols? It was intended for the large and small droplets. Aerosol laughs at masks and can stay suspended in the air for hours.

 

The underrated safety measure all of this time has been air circulation/filtration. I mean hell, we just recently removed mask mandates for outdoor spaces. The systems many cruise ships are installing are perhaps one of the most important measures they can take. 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/In-Covid-fight-cruise-lines-are-focusing-on-clearing-the-air

[TNcruising02]

32 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

It is not, and never has been about stopping individual viruses, it is to decrease and limit the spread of small droplets.  Individual viruses do not create a contagious load, its the aerosols, which the masks are very good at decreasing.  And they have always said it was not perfect, just a barrier to help prevent spreading.  Then you add social distancing as another "hurdle" that the virus has to go over to spread. If you want to see if it works, put a mask on, put your hand in front of it and blow air out.  Now do the same thing without a mask.  You just proved that masks help to stop the spread.

I can cite studies too:

 

"Median viral loads did not differ significantly when comparing coughing samples of COVID-19 patients without a mask, with a surgical mask, and with a cloth mask, suggesting these masks were ineffective at filtering SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, reported Sung-Han Kim, MD, of University of Ulsan College of Medicine in Seoul, South Korea, and colleagues.

In a letter published in Annals of Internal Medicine, they cited the size of viral particles as a possible reason for masks' poor ability to filter the virus, despite their effectiveness against other respiratory infections. In particular, prior studies found surgical masks, as well as N95 respirators (which were not tested in the current analysis), help prevent dissemination of influenza virus."

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814

[jerseygirl3]

32 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

This is not trashing Americans, it's simply true.  We, as a society, tend to think more about ourselves than those around us and are naturally rebellious when compared to other societies.  A great example is the temper tantrum people are throwing about wearing a mask.  It is not a great burden, but people have no problem lying about medical conditions to get around wearing one, or simply not wearing it.  And you can explain the logic of the masks a thousand times, but they won't care because the CDC is evil an they read something on the internet. These are facts, the only opinion is that masks are not a big deal, but they are not.

I continue to be amazed by the “adults” who are so against wearing a mask. A grocery clerk was shot to death when she insisted that a customer wear a mask. My 3,4, and 7 year olds grandchildren think nothing about wearing a mask. They have to do it and they have never once balked. Maybe some of these adults should start acting like children!  

[broberts]

2 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Well, since people who wore masks and "followed the rules" still got covid, then blaming lack of following simple rules doesn't fly.  

 

Wonderful logic 🙄.  Sort of like tossing all criminal laws since those that follow them still become victims.

 

16 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

I can cite studies too:

 

"Median viral loads did not differ significantly when comparing coughing samples of COVID-19 patients without a mask, with a surgical mask, and with a cloth mask, suggesting these masks were ineffective at filtering SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, reported Sung-Han Kim, MD, of University of Ulsan College of Medicine in Seoul, South Korea, and colleagues.

In a letter published in Annals of Internal Medicine, they cited the size of viral particles as a possible reason for masks' poor ability to filter the virus, despite their effectiveness against other respiratory infections. In particular, prior studies found surgical masks, as well as N95 respirators (which were not tested in the current analysis), help prevent dissemination of influenza virus."

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814

 

From the last link:

"Editor's Note: The Annals of Internal Medicine retracted this paper cited below on June 2 because the authors said they had "not fully recognized the concept of limit of detection" of the in-house assay, rendering the values below the limit of detection "unreliable" and the authors' findings "uninterpretable."

[BlerkOne]

29 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

Where does it say masks stopped aerosols? It was intended for the large and small droplets. Aerosol laughs at masks and can stay suspended in the air for hours.

 

The underrated safety measure all of this time has been air circulation/filtration. I mean hell, we just recently removed mask mandates for outdoor spaces. The systems many cruise ships are installing are perhaps one of the most important measures they can take. 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/In-Covid-fight-cruise-lines-are-focusing-on-clearing-the-air

Nothing by itself is 100% effective - that is why you need a combination of safety measures. Including masks.

[kbandwb]

I just want our cruise to feel like pre-covid, or post covid (if there is such a thing) and if that means everyone needs to be vaccinated for now. So be it.  No masks, no social distancing, and little worry or talk of covid...not to mention a nice drink in hand. Sounds phenomenal right now. 

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, sm3ds said:

MSc cruises is requiring everyone get a rapid test before boarding. Unvaccinated must by insurance. Everyone wears a mask indoors. No masks required outdoors by anyone. The protocols are fine with me. It’s better than my land trips and theme park vacations I took over the last year. I’m not sure if these protocols came out before or after the judges decision or how long they’ll be in place. 

That is not a complete list.

 

For example

- Discover in protected excursions: If you wish to go ashore during your cruise, you can only do so by participating in one of our MSC Shore Excursions to ensure the same high standards of health and safety ashore as on board.

[MrMarc]

46 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

I can cite studies too:

 

"Median viral loads did not differ significantly when comparing coughing samples of COVID-19 patients without a mask, with a surgical mask, and with a cloth mask, suggesting these masks were ineffective at filtering SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, reported Sung-Han Kim, MD, of University of Ulsan College of Medicine in Seoul, South Korea, and colleagues.

In a letter published in Annals of Internal Medicine, they cited the size of viral particles as a possible reason for masks' poor ability to filter the virus, despite their effectiveness against other respiratory infections. In particular, prior studies found surgical masks, as well as N95 respirators (which were not tested in the current analysis), help prevent dissemination of influenza virus."

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814

https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20  https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248099

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2452199X20301481

 

And there are many more.  NO. Masks are not perfect.  The do however block and slow down some of the aerosols responsible for spreading COVID.  Yes, you can find studies that disagree with these.  But interestingly, I could not find studies that compared the velocity of the particles with and without masks, but common sense makes me believe that it would be lower.   So if we don't know, err on the side of caution. 

[firefly333]

7 minutes ago, kbandwb said:

I just want our cruise to feel like pre-covid, or post covid (if there is such a thing) and if that means everyone needs to be vaccinated for now. So be it.  No masks, no social distancing, and little worry or talk of covid...not to mention a nice drink in hand. Sounds phenomenal right now. 

Cozumel requires masks in public except beaches. Idk about other ports. ..depends what ports you go to. I'm betting mahogany bay is unmasked since its owned by carnival. 

 

Wear one to board. .. dont leave your mask home. ..you probably will wear it some for now or break rules.

[TNcruising02]

29 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Wonderful logic 🙄.  Sort of like tossing all criminal laws since those that follow them still become victims.

 

 

From the last link:

"Editor's Note: The Annals of Internal Medicine retracted this paper cited below on June 2 because the authors said they had "not fully recognized the concept of limit of detection" of the in-house assay, rendering the values below the limit of detection "unreliable" and the authors' findings "uninterpretable."

Ok, we can go back and forth.  Social distancing was really the only way to not get covid.  Covid goes right through a mask. So wearing one sitting next to someone in a plane did little good.

People who love masks can call us names all they want, but I wore a mask when required by a business every single time.  Some people are adult enough to obey the laws even if they don't agree with them.  
 

"In Physics of Fluids, by AIP Publishing, researchers tested how five different types of mask materials impacted the spread of droplets that carry the coronavirus when we cough or sneeze.

Every material tested dramatically reduced the number of droplets that were spread. But at distances of less than 6 feet, enough droplets to potentially cause illness still made it through several of the materials.

"A mask definitely helps, but if the people are very close to each other, there is still a chance of spreading or contracting the virus," said Krishna Kota, an associate professor at New Mexico State University and one of the article's authors. "It's not just masks that will help. It's both the masks and distancing."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201222132057.htm

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[MrMarc]

5 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Ok, we can go back and forth.  Social distancing was really the only way to not get covid.  Covid goes right through a mask. So wearing one sitting next to someone in a plane did little good.

People who love masks can call us names all they want, but I wore a mask when required by a business every single time.  Some people are adult enough to obey the laws even if they don't agree with them.  
 

"In Physics of Fluids, by AIP Publishing, researchers tested how five different types of mask materials impacted the spread of droplets that carry the coronavirus when we cough or sneeze.

Every material tested dramatically reduced the number of droplets that were spread. But at distances of less than 6 feet, enough droplets to potentially cause illness still made it through several of the materials.

"A mask definitely helps, but if the people are very close to each other, there is still a chance of spreading or contracting the virus," said Krishna Kota, an associate professor at New Mexico State University and one of the article's authors. "It's not just masks that will help. It's both the masks and distancing."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201222132057.htm

 

I think you two agree, but just don't realize it.

[TNcruising02]

Just now, MrMarc said:

I think you two agree, but just don't realize it.

Maybe.  LOL.  Masks are my trigger. 🤣  I wore those dang things for a year when I had to, but I hated every minute of it.  Time for me to move on. 

[BlerkOne]

7 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Ok, we can go back and forth.  Social distancing was really the only way to not get covid.  Covid goes right through a mask. So wearing one sitting next to someone in a plane did little good.

There are studies that say social distancing is irrelevant. For any study with one conclusion, there is another study with a different conclusion. What I don't see are studies that combine all of the mitigating actions that can be taken.

[jimbo5544]

6 hours ago, MrMarc said:

Reading between the lines.  The Judge talks about how important vaccinations are a number of times, and then sends the parties back to mediation.  From what I know, which is only from reports and some Court records, the only real bargaining chip Florida has is giving that up.  And then there is the intangible gut feeling.  

As i mentioned earlier, both the state and Carnival (at least) seem to think this will not be an issue at the end of the day... 

Edited June 19, 2021 by jimbo5544

[sm3ds]

20 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

That is not a complete list.

 

For example

- Discover in protected excursions: If you wish to go ashore during your cruise, you can only do so by participating in one of our MSC Shore Excursions to ensure the same high standards of health and safety ashore as on board.

My son will be thrilled he doesn’t have to leave the ship. We’ve been to these ports several times don’t really care. I also like shipboard excursions. 

 

[TNcruising02]

If the CDC comes back with new rules, it looks like those rules must be backed up by current data that supports it:

 

"However, to further safeguard the public’s health while this action pends, CDC may propose not later than JULY 2, 2021, a narrower injunction both permitting cruise ships to sail timely and remaining within CDC’s authority as interpreted in this order. The motion for the proposed injunction must support the proposed terms with current scientific evidence and fully disclose — if unavailable to the public — scientific evidence, including methodology, raw data, analysis, and the like and the names and qualifications of the scientists participating in the study, modeling, or the like. If CDC moves under this paragraph, Florida must respond within seven days."

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[BlerkOne]

Just now, jimbo5544 said:

The vaccines are just as effective against the delta variant (vaccinated, no problem).  India has very little vaccines and horrid conditions. 

 

The vaccines are effective, but not as effective as with the original flavor. With each variant, a little less effective. The UK has vaccinated many but still is having issues with Delta.

 

Just now, jimbo5544 said:

 

 See you on lido.  

If Lido is open. I'll find out next month.

[BlerkOne]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

If the CDC comes back with new rules, it looks like those rules must be backed up by data that supports it:

 

"However, to further safeguard the public’s health while this action pends, CDC may propose not later than JULY 2, 2021, a narrower injunction both permitting cruise ships to sail timely and remaining within CDC’s authority as interpreted in this order. The motion for the proposed injunction must support the proposed terms with current scientific evidence and fully disclose — if unavailable to the public — scientific evidence, including methodology, raw data, analysis, and the like and the names and qualifications of the scientists participating in the study, modeling, or the like. If CDC moves under this paragraph, Florida must respond within seven days."

There should be plenty of data to back up mandating vaccines.

[firefly333]

1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:

If the CDC comes back with new rules, it looks like those rules must be backed up by data that supports it:

 

"However, to further safeguard the public’s health while this action pends, CDC may propose not later than JULY 2, 2021, a narrower injunction both permitting cruise ships to sail timely and remaining within CDC’s authority as interpreted in this order. The motion for the proposed injunction must support the proposed terms with current scientific evidence and fully disclose — if unavailable to the public — scientific evidence, including methodology, raw data, analysis, and the like and the names and qualifications of the scientists participating in the study, modeling, or the like. If CDC moves under this paragraph, Florida must respond within seven days."

Cdc probably will just appeal. So far twice they havent bothered to present any data. Why would they now.....just keep on being wrong and dragging it out and cruises will restart and cdc thinks that means they won. Everyone knows they react too slow.

[TNcruising02]

3 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Cdc probably will just appeal. So far twice they havent bothered to present any data. Why would they now.....just keep on being wrong and dragging it out and cruises will restart and cdc thinks that means they won. Everyone knows they react too slow.

It does seem more likely that they would appeal rather than submit current scientific data supporting their requirements.  If they had any current data that supported their requirements, they would have already submitted it.  It will be interesting to see what happens next.  The CDC really needs to show us the current data.  People need to see it.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TNcruising02

[caniuseit]

1 hour ago, TNcruising02 said:

I can cite studies too:

 

"Median viral loads did not differ significantly when comparing coughing samples of COVID-19 patients without a mask, with a surgical mask, and with a cloth mask, suggesting these masks were ineffective at filtering SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, reported Sung-Han Kim, MD, of University of Ulsan College of Medicine in Seoul, South Korea, and colleagues.

In a letter published in Annals of Internal Medicine, they cited the size of viral particles as a possible reason for masks' poor ability to filter the virus, despite their effectiveness against other respiratory infections. In particular, prior studies found surgical masks, as well as N95 respirators (which were not tested in the current analysis), help prevent dissemination of influenza virus."

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814

From the article

 

The researchers acknowledged that the study didn't examine actual transmission of COVID-19 illness nor whether the masks "shorten the travel distance of droplets during coughing."

Whether face masks decrease transmission from asymptomatic individuals with COVID-19 or those who are not coughing needs further study, they added.

[TNcruising02]

It is also interesting to note that it appears the CDC simply has guidelines for other modes of transportation and not requirements:

 

"However, the preliminary injunction is STAYED until 12:01 a.m. EDT on JULY 18, 2021, at which time the conditional sailing order and the measures promulgated under the conditional sailing order will persist as only a non-binding “consideration,” “recommendation” or “guideline,” the same tools used by CDC when addressing the practices in other similarly situated industries, such as airlines, railroads, hotels, casinos, sports venues, buses, subways, and others. (Docs. 45-4; 45-5;45-6; 46-4)"