PVSA OPINION - legal or not

[nocl]

2 hours ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

Ouch! I was hoping to go south b2b from Seward to Vancouver and then to LA. You’re saying that won’t work? I was also planning a third leg, LA to LA (Mexican Riviera). Don’t know if adding that Mexico portion makes any difference…

No it does not because you still start in a US port and end in a US port without going to a distant far port.  Still a violation.

[nocl]

39 minutes ago, bigbenboys said:

A stop in Ensenada Mexico.  Carnival Miracle is do that in Jan 2022.

Yes, The stop in Ensenada only makes a closed loop cruise legal, those that start and end in same port. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, adding Mexico makes your b2b2b permissible, whereas your b2b isn't.

No it does not.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, gerelmx said:

Many cruise lines uses Ensenada, MX to avoid the PSVA

Only for close loop cruises.  It is still not a far distant port to allow travel from one US port to another.

[nocl]

Just as a point of interest Canada has a similar law.  If you do not think so try booking a small ship cruise that goes starts in a Canadian city on the Great Lakes and ends in a US port, B2B with the next cruise from that US port to a different Canadian city.  You will run into the same problem there as happens with the US PVSA.

[tunaman2011]

Greetings

 

And another point is that the fine for a violation is now $762/person so it is starting to be a steep price if the law is violated.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[sanger727]

Where people make mistakes on the PVSA is by focusing on where the cruise goes. What matters is where YOU go. If you stay one ship and spend every night on board, it doesn't matter how many cruises you book you are on one cruise. And YOU cannot start your journey in one US city and end in different US city without a distant foreign port (aka, not mexico, canada, or most of the caribbean). So if you board in Hawaii and disembark in Alaska, it's a violation. The reason the cruises can run is because they plan to let all passengers off in Canada and pick up all new passengers in Canada. Cruises running between Hawaii and Canada, California and Canada, and Alaska and Canada are all fine. It's when a cruise puts those together and ends up going from Hawaii to Alaska that it's a problem. As long as you ultimately board the ship or disembark permanently in Canada or Mexico, you'll be fine for these itineraries. You will also be fine if you start and end in the same US city. Anything else will be a violation.

[gerelmx]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Only for close loop cruises.  It is still not a far distant port to allow travel from one US port to another.

 

Ensenada is also used with the Hawaii to LA or San Diego or the Hawaii RT

Edited December 17, 2021 by gerelmx

[GottaKnowWhen]

22 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

Where people make mistakes on the PVSA is by focusing on where the cruise goes. What matters is where YOU go. If you stay one ship and spend every night on board, it doesn't matter how many cruises you book you are on one cruise. And YOU cannot start your journey in one US city and end in different US city without a distant foreign port ...

Thanks. The part I bolded & underlined above is very helpful to my understanding of this.

Stan

[tunaman2011]

15 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

 

Ensenada is also used with the Hawaii to LA or San Diego or the Hawaii RT

Greetings

 

If they start and end in the same port then Ensenada is necessary to assure there is a stop at a foreign port.  For closed loop cruises any foreign port will suffice.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[nocl]

16 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

 

Ensenada is also used with the Hawaii to LA or San Diego or the Hawaii RT

No it cannot be used for one way cruises that start in Hawaii and end in LA or end in San Diego.

 

There were a few cruises a couple of years ago that were marketed that way (Celebrity for example), but the passengers all had to disembark in Ensenada and get bused to SD or LA.  Same with the cruises that were marketed as being from SD or LA one way.  The passengers would check in, then get bused to Ensenada where the cruise would actually start from.  Making them legal under PVSA.  Those were legal because the passengers disembarked or embarked in a non-US city.   That experiment did not last long because the passengers really did not like the bus rides to/from Ensenada.

 

A cruise that goes one way from a Hawaiian City to a US city on the west coast is a violation of PVSA.

 

Ensenada is used for close loop cruises which only need a close in foreign city

[Guppy99]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:35 AM, HS2BS said:

I booked b2b(June 2021) the Millennium(5/3/22) from San Diego to Vancouver then to Alaska, originally Celebrity took the booking. Then in August said it violated PVSA and Celebrity cancelled the Alaskan part. Now, other passengers are booking b2b2b, San Diego to Vancouver, Vancouver to Seward, Seward to Vancouver and Celebrity says that’s ok, and will allow it. Violation or not?

 

Hal

How many maritime lawyers do you think post on this board?

[tunaman2011]

1 hour ago, Guppy99 said:

How many maritime lawyers do you think post on this board?

Greetings

 

Celebrity is on the hook for the fine if there is a violation so they will make the decision.  Sometimes violations related to multiple cruises slip by and are allowed to be booked but the total itinerary is later reviewed and then Celebrity acts to modify the reservation to avoid the fines.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[jhskick]

Lets all agree if the government is involved it is never going to benefit the consumer. 

[canderson]

On 12/17/2021 at 11:14 AM, tunaman2011 said:

Greetings

 

And another point is that the fine for a violation is now $762/person so it is starting to be a steep price if the law is violated.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

Is that all?  I can easily envision a number of B2Bs where I'd chip in that much to stay on the boat.  Just add it to my cruise fare.

[nocl]

4 minutes ago, canderson said:

Is that all?  I can easily envision a number of B2Bs where I'd chip in that much to stay on the boat.  Just add it to my cruise fare.

Of course if a cruise line is found to be voluntarily violating the over all penalty can go far beyond the fine.

[rmalbers]

Wait a minute, I thought congress passed a law that said that cruises  from mainland US to Alaska was ok, for a certain period of time.  I don't remember the time frames.  I'm fairly sure I didn't dream it!  

[cruisestitch]

That was for the summer and early fall of 2022 and not for next year, and only referred to a specific number of closed loop cruises leaving out of Seattle.

[markeb]

14 minutes ago, rmalbers said:

Wait a minute, I thought congress passed a law that said that cruises  from mainland US to Alaska was ok, for a certain period of time.  I don't remember the time frames.  I'm fairly sure I didn't dream it!  

 

HR 1318/Public Law 117-14. It applies to cruise ships traveling from Washington State to Alaska and expires March 31, 2022.

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, rmalbers said:

Wait a minute, I thought congress passed a law that said that cruises  from mainland US to Alaska was ok, for a certain period of time.  I don't remember the time frames.  I'm fairly sure I didn't dream it!  

Only until Canada reopens to cruise ships.

[ORV]

FYI, the person that is referred to in the original question has posted on the Roll Call that Celebrity has said their B2B2B is NOT legal and they'll have to change or cancel it.