PVSA OPINION - legal or not

[HS2BS]

I booked b2b(June 2021) the Millennium(5/3/22) from San Diego to Vancouver then to Alaska, originally Celebrity took the booking. Then in August said it violated PVSA and Celebrity cancelled the Alaskan part. Now, other passengers are booking b2b2b, San Diego to Vancouver, Vancouver to Seward, Seward to Vancouver and Celebrity says that’s ok, and will allow it. Violation or not?

 

Hal

[wrk2cruise]

I think the difference is in your example they are transporting you from a US port to US port.   In the second example it's US port to Canadian port.

[1025cruise]

As long as the cruiser starts in a US port and ends in Canada, its legal. San Diego to Seward is not.

[cruisestitch]

24 minutes ago, HS2BS said:

I booked b2b(June 2021) the Millennium(5/3/22) from San Diego to Vancouver then to Alaska, originally Celebrity took the booking. Then in August said it violated PVSA and Celebrity cancelled the Alaskan part. Now, other passengers are booking b2b2b, San Diego to Vancouver, Vancouver to Seward, Seward to Vancouver and Celebrity says that’s ok, and will allow it. Violation or not?

 

Hal

No violation if you start in US and end in Canada

[Turtles06]

1 hour ago, wrk2cruise said:

I think the difference is in your example they are transporting you from a US port to US port.   In the second example it's US port to Canadian port.

 

1 hour ago, 1025cruise said:

As long as the cruiser starts in a US port and ends in Canada, its legal. San Diego to Seward is not.

 

1 hour ago, cruisestitch said:

No violation if you start in US and end in Canada

Exactly

[GottaKnowWhen]

Ouch! I was hoping to go south b2b from Seward to Vancouver and then to LA. You’re saying that won’t work? I was also planning a third leg, LA to LA (Mexican Riviera). Don’t know if adding that Mexico portion makes any difference…

[Fouremco]

1 minute ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

Ouch! I was hoping to go south b2b from Seward to Vancouver and then to LA. You’re saying that won’t work? I was also planning a third leg, LA to LA (Mexican Riviera). Don’t know if adding that Mexico portion makes any difference…

Yes, adding Mexico makes your b2b2b permissible, whereas your b2b isn't.

[tunaman2011]

5 minutes ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

Ouch! I was hoping to go south b2b from Seward to Vancouver and then to LA. You’re saying that won’t work? I was also planning a third leg, LA to LA (Mexican Riviera). Don’t know if adding that Mexico portion makes any difference…

Greetings

 

If you start in one US port and end in another US port without stopping at a "Far Foreign Port" you are in violation.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[Turtles06]

14 minutes ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

Ouch! I was hoping to go south b2b from Seward to Vancouver and then to LA. You’re saying that won’t work? I was also planning a third leg, LA to LA (Mexican Riviera). Don’t know if adding that Mexico portion makes any difference…

 

10 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, adding Mexico makes your b2b2b permissible, whereas your b2b isn't.

I don’t think it does, because to go from one U.S. port (Seward) to another (LA) the ship must stop at a “distant foreign port.”  Unless I’m mistaken (and I hope someone will correct me if I’m wrong), ports in Mexico and Central America are not “distant foreign ports” under the PVSA. 

[tunaman2011]

7 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

 

I don’t think it does, because to go from one U.S. port (Seward) to another (LA) the ship must stop at a “distant foreign port.”  Unless I’m mistaken (and I hope someone will correct me if I’m wrong), ports in Mexico and Central America are not “distant foreign ports” under the PVSA. 

Greetings

 

The ABC islands and any port in South America are the only options in this hemisphere.  That's why transcanal cruises stop at either Cartegena or the ABC's.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[gerelmx]

Many cruise lines uses Ensenada, MX to avoid the PSVA

[cdn_tbird]

I don't understand why the OP's original B2B wouldn't qualify. I can book a 7 day round trip Alaska cruise out of Seattle, and the only foreign port is Victoria BC. If that is allowable then why wouldn't a B2B that is US to Can / Can to US not be allowed? Since the OP would have to go through customs between the two cruises you could argue that their cruises either ended or started in a foreign country, and not that it is one long cruise.

 

Given that I've never done a B2B, I'm hoping to learn something about this.

[D C]

6 minutes ago, cdn_tbird said:

I don't understand why the OP's original B2B wouldn't qualify. I can book a 7 day round trip Alaska cruise out of Seattle, and the only foreign port is Victoria BC. If that is allowable then why wouldn't a B2B that is US to Can / Can to US not be allowed? Since the OP would have to go through customs between the two cruises you could argue that their cruises either ended or started in a foreign country, and not that it is one long cruise.

 

Given that I've never done a B2B, I'm hoping to learn something about this.

 

Because of the silliness of the PVSA, a round-trip back to the originating port is ok but a 1-way trip is not.  Go figure.  

[bigbenboys]

7 minutes ago, cdn_tbird said:

I don't understand why the OP's original B2B wouldn't qualify. I can book a 7 day round trip Alaska cruise out of Seattle, and the only foreign port is Victoria BC. If that is allowable then why wouldn't a B2B that is US to Can / Can to US not be allowed? Since the OP would have to go through customs between the two cruises you could argue that their cruises either ended or started in a foreign country, and not that it is one long cruise.

 

Given that I've never done a B2B, I'm hoping to learn something about this.

There are others on CC that understand better than I. I think that if you would overnight in a hotel in Vancouver and leave the next day on a cruise to the US you would be fine.

If you cruise on Millie then spend 2 nights in Vancouver then get on Eclipse June 12th for a Alaska cruise.

[ORV]

28 minutes ago, cdn_tbird said:

I don't understand why the OP's original B2B wouldn't qualify. I can book a 7 day round trip Alaska cruise out of Seattle, and the only foreign port is Victoria BC. If that is allowable then why wouldn't a B2B that is US to Can / Can to US not be allowed? Since the OP would have to go through customs between the two cruises you could argue that their cruises either ended or started in a foreign country, and not that it is one long cruise.

 

Given that I've never done a B2B, I'm hoping to learn something about this.

Here’s the way it works. Seattle to Seattle is called a closed loop cruise. As long as it stops anywhere in Canada that is considered a near foreign port. Acceptable. 
 

if you go from Seattle to Seward, Anchorage, or any other US port  you need to make a stop at a distant foreign port, none of which is available in that area. Substitute any two US ports and the situation is the same. This is for foreign flagged ships. 

[cruisestitch]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:35 AM, HS2BS said:

I booked b2b(June 2021) the Millennium(5/3/22) from San Diego to Vancouver then to Alaska, originally Celebrity took the booking. Then in August said it violated PVSA and Celebrity cancelled the Alaskan part. Now, other passengers are booking b2b2b, San Diego to Vancouver, Vancouver to Seward, Seward to Vancouver and Celebrity says that’s ok, and will allow it. Violation or not?

 

Hal

Let’s look at each

 

the first trip would start in one US city, San Diego, And end in a different US city.  To be legal, this trip would need to visit a distant foreign port and there are no distant foreign ports on the west coast visit. So it has been denied.

 

The second option starts in one US city and ends in a foreign city. The PVSA only refers to cruises which start and end in US cities. So it is allowed.

[cruisestitch]

37 minutes ago, cdn_tbird said:

I don't understand why the OP's original B2B wouldn't qualify. I can book a 7 day round trip Alaska cruise out of Seattle, and the only foreign port is Victoria BC. If that is allowable then why wouldn't a B2B that is US to Can / Can to US not be allowed? Since the OP would have to go through customs between the two cruises you could argue that their cruises either ended or started in a foreign country, and not that it is one long cruise.

 

Given that I've never done a B2B, I'm hoping to learn something about this.

To be in compliance with the PVSA, every cruise which goes round trip out of the US must visit a foreign port.

 

So round trips out of Seattle that stop in Victoria are fine.

 

The PVSA looks at where you get on the ship and where you get off.  
 

What you are trying to do is to say that a cruise that starts in Seward, ending in Vancouver followed immediately by a Vancouver to San Diego is two separate cruises.  But not to the PVSA.  You would be getting on in Seward and off in San Diego without benefit of a distant foreign port, so PVSA would deny it.

[cruisestitch]

12 minutes ago, bigbenboys said:

There are others on CC that understand better than I. I think that if you would overnight in a hotel in Vancouver and leave the next day on a cruise to the US you would be fine.

If you cruise on Millie then spend 2 nights in Vancouver then get on Eclipse June 12th for a Alaska cruise.

Yes, that is allowed because you are changing ships.

[cruisestitch]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, adding Mexico makes your b2b2b permissible, whereas your b2b isn't.

No it doesn’t make it permissible.  Mexican ports are not distant foreign ports as defined in the PVSA.

[cruisestitch]

1 hour ago, gerelmx said:

Many cruise lines uses Ensenada, MX to avoid the PSVA

They are not avoiding the PVSA, they are abiding by it. Ensenada Mexico is a foreign port, so it can be used in a closed loop cruise to satisfy the PVSA.

 

 

[GottaKnowWhen]

2 minutes ago, cruisestitch said:

To be in compliance with the PVSA, every cruise which goes round trip out of the US must visit a foreign port.

 

So round trips out of Seattle that stop in Victoria are fine.

 

The PVSA looks at where you get on the ship and where you get off.  
 

What you are trying to do is to say that a cruise that starts in Seward, ending in Vancouver followed immediately by a Vancouver to San Diego is two separate cruises.  But not to the PVSA.  You would be getting on in Seward and off in San Diego without benefit of a distant foreign port, so PVSA would deny it.

The 2022 itineraries for the Coastal cruise south from Vancouver to LA stops in Victoria BC. Assuming the 2023 is the same, I guess this still doesn't help me since I am starting in Seward USA and ending in LA USA no matter how many intervening ports there are. But then, how do ships get from California to Hawaii? (I knew I should have gone into law school. Then maybe I could figure this out...)

[cruisestitch]

They start in Vancouver (or end there) or the do a round trip and return to their same port with a stop in Ensenada.

[bigbenboys]

8 minutes ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

The 2022 itineraries for the Coastal cruise south from Vancouver to LA stops in Victoria BC. Assuming the 2023 is the same, I guess this still doesn't help me since I am starting in Seward USA and ending in LA USA no matter how many intervening ports there are. But then, how do ships get from California to Hawaii? (I knew I should have gone into law school. Then maybe I could figure this out...)

A stop in Ensenada Mexico.  Carnival Miracle is do that in Jan 2022.

[Turtles06]

1 hour ago, tunaman2011 said:

Greetings

 

The ABC islands and any port in South America are the only options in this hemisphere.  That's why transcanal cruises stop at either Cartegena or the ABC's.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

 

Yes, thanks, exactly what I thought.   (One of our Panama Canal full transits stopped in Santa Marta, Colombia -- it needn't be Cartagena!  ☺️)

[dkjretired]

If there’s anything you learn from this thread follow what the cruise line says, they deal with this all the time and their decision is FINAL.