P&O cancellation / Medical questionnaire

[wowzz]

26 minutes ago, Host Sharon said:

I'll let posts 228 and 230 stand in this instance but please do not discuss Princess on this P&O board as they will be deleted. P&O and Princess are different and do not necessarily have the idential T&C so is irrelevant here. Thanks.

Sharon - your post is #200.

Are you being clairvoyant about posts #228 and #230 ?😃

[HalifaxYorksCruiser]

We got back on Saturday from 7 day Iona cruise. From day one lots of  passengers were coughing - clearly many people lie when completing the health form in order to avoid cancellation. I don’t blame them as I would do the same. On another matter it was very interesting that there was absolutely no attempt by staff on Iona to encourage hand washing or use of gels when embarking or entering restaurants- I am surprised Norovirus wasn’t rampant.

[yorkshirephil]

7 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Sharon - your post is #200.

Are you being clairvoyant about posts #228 and #230 ?😃

It is Halloween

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Teddy123 said:

The problem aired in this thread is people refused boarding because they say they have a symptom (eg a cough) which might, or might not, mean they have Covid.  The complaint in other threads is that ships are (allegedly) full of people who do have Covid.  The obvious solution would seem to be for P&O to ask those who say they have a symptom to take a test to show if the symptom is caused by Covid.  Only if the test is positive would boarding then be denied - and presumably insurance would cover the loss. This would stop unnecessary denial and reduce the number of people on board with Covid (assuming honest questionnaire responses, of course) - although it would still mean anybody with a highly infectious strain of flu would be allowed on board to spread it, something P&O's draconian approach is aimed at preventing.

Ironically cancellation from flu would be covered under insurance.

[GSPG]

34 minutes ago, HalifaxYorksCruiser said:

We got back on Saturday from 7 day Iona cruise. From day one lots of  passengers were coughing - clearly many people lie when completing the health form in order to avoid cancellation. I don’t blame them as I would do the same. On another matter it was very interesting that there was absolutely no attempt by staff on Iona to encourage hand washing or use of gels when embarking or entering restaurants- I am surprised Norovirus wasn’t rampant.

I travelled on the two week Canaries cruise before your voyage. I too noticed coughing at the start, but by the second week this became less noticeable, even gone. Early in week 2, the staff were allowed to take their masks off. Poor things a number seemed tentative to start with having to endure these things for well over a year. But gradually in all areas the staff demasked, and was great to see!

[wowzz]

15 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Ironically cancellation from flu would be covered under insurance.

But wouldn't you need a doctor's letter as proof ? Not easy to get if the doctor has to see you in person.

[Megabear2]

5 minutes ago, wowzz said:

But wouldn't you need a doctor's letter as proof ? Not easy to get if the doctor has to see you in person.

The doctor's letter comes at the point he submits the form to the insurance company.  Anyone with real influenza, not a viral sniffle, would need to seek medical attention anyway.

 

It is very easy to overthink this.  To report you are unwell you need to call your GP surgery and speak to a medical professional, ie a surgery nurse, a doctor etc.  This then records your illness and symptoms on your medical records and lo and behold you can make an insurance claim.  At the point you submit your cancellation claim to your insurer he sends a form to your doctor's surgery who note what's in your records, holds his hand out for his fee and says thank you very much.

 

There I'd of course a significant difference between real 'flu and the common cold etc but if you have just been refused boarding for anything, even covid, you would be very well advised to get it noted on your GP records that you are unwell.

[Cathygh]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

They have exonerated IC completely stating that being locked in a port by the cruise line, together with the failed assistance not being within their remit.

I thought that if someone is left stranded abroad, for whatever reason, then the company who supplied the ATOL certificate has to help you. Is ABTA saying neither the TA or the cruise line is responsible? Thanks

[Megabear2]

13 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

I thought that if someone is left stranded abroad, for whatever reason, then the company who supplied the ATOL certificate has to help you. Is ABTA saying neither the TA or the cruise line is responsible? Thanks

No.  They are saying the TA is not liable as it was a cruise line issue. The cruise line is refusing to speak to them or us - they are apparently under no obligation to do so.  I'm now told next step would be arbitration which of course costs but no idea who we arbitrate with. It's not clear cut due to the exceptional circumstances which I cannot discuss on this forum.

[Snow Hill]

32 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

I thought that if someone is left stranded abroad, for whatever reason, then the company who supplied the ATOL certificate has to help you. Is ABTA saying neither the TA or the cruise line is responsible? Thanks

ATOL certificates only apply to airlines, Air Travellers Operating Licence (ATOL), you wouldn’t get a certificate for cruise unless it’s a fly cruise with the certificate issued for the flights. For a cruise you would be covered by ABTA scheme in most circumstances of a company failing.

 

 

https://www.atol.org/about-atol/what-does-atol-protection-mean/

Edited October 31, 2022 by Snow Hill

[Cathygh]

41 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

ATOL certificates only apply to airlines, Air Travellers Operating Licence (ATOL), you wouldn’t get a certificate for cruise unless it’s a fly cruise with the certificate issued for the flights. For a cruise you would be covered by ABTA scheme in most circumstances of a company failing.

 

 

https://www.atol.org/about-atol/what-does-atol-protection-mean/

Thank you for the clarification. I only mentionied ATOL as I knew Megabear was referring to a fly cruise.

[Cathygh]

47 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

No.  They are saying the TA is not liable as it was a cruise line issue. The cruise line is refusing to speak to them or us - they are apparently under no obligation to do so.  I'm now told next step would be arbitration which of course costs but no idea who we arbitrate with. It's not clear cut due to the exceptional circumstances which I cannot discuss on this forum.

Ah, thank you. I wish you well with arbitration, I guess there are specialist firms like https://travelarbitration.co.uk/ who would arbitrate between your self and the cruise line

[Mad4WDW]

3 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

No.  They are saying the TA is not liable as it was a cruise line issue. The cruise line is refusing to speak to them or us - they are apparently under no obligation to do so.  I'm now told next step would be arbitration which of course costs but no idea who we arbitrate with. It's not clear cut due to the exceptional circumstances which I cannot discuss on this forum.

Why don't you just pursue you claim through the small claims court and bypass arbitration?

[Megabear2]

15 minutes ago, Mad4WDW said:

Why don't you just pursue you claim through the small claims court and bypass arbitration?

There's apparently no clear liability with anyone.  We are pursing the insurance company through the Ombudsman.  Unfortunately there is no direct financial loss attributable to either the t/a or cruise line so apart from the medical bill cost being taken from me and then returned and the cruise line having now threatened us with legal action we cannot seek any financial redress.  The complaint is about failure in duty of care.  I have a lawyer who is looking at compensation and this is why arbitration is considered at this stage a better solution.

 

I'm pretty sure these posts will disappear rather quickly but thanks for everyone's concern.

[Mad4WDW]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

There's apparently no clear liability with anyone.  We are pursing the insurance company through the Ombudsman.  Unfortunately there is no direct financial loss attributable to either the t/a or cruise line so apart from the medical bill cost being taken from me and then returned and the cruise line having now threatened us with legal action we cannot seek any financial redress.  The complaint is about failure in duty of care.  I have a lawyer who is looking at compensation and this is why arbitration is considered at this stage a better solution.

 

I'm pretty sure these posts will disappear rather quickly but thanks for everyone's concern.

😕 I hope you can reach a satisfactory outcome. I successfully sued a tour company some years ago so know how frustrating it can be at times, your perseverance will pay off I'm sure. Good Luck 

[Son of Anarchy]

5 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

There's apparently no clear liability with anyone.  We are pursing the insurance company through the Ombudsman.  Unfortunately there is no direct financial loss attributable to either the t/a or cruise line so apart from the medical bill cost being taken from me and then returned and the cruise line having now threatened us with legal action we cannot seek any financial redress.  The complaint is about failure in duty of care.  I have a lawyer who is looking at compensation and this is why arbitration is considered at this stage a better solution.

 

I'm pretty sure these posts will disappear rather quickly but thanks for everyone's concern.

Sounds an absolute nightmare.

 

Hope it gets resolved soon.

[Host Sharon]

6 hours ago, wowzz said:

Sharon - your post is #200.

Are you being clairvoyant about posts #228 and #230 ?😃

Ah! Of course I see all the hidden/removed posts so my numbering is different! Didn't think of that.

[wowzz]

15 minutes ago, Host Sharon said:

Ah! Of course I see all the hidden/removed posts so my numbering is different! Didn't think of that.

Crikey - that means you have removed at least thirty ! You have been busy, and some of us must have been very naughty !

[molecrochip]

2 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

There's apparently no clear liability with anyone.  We are pursing the insurance company through the Ombudsman.  Unfortunately there is no direct financial loss attributable to either the t/a or cruise line so apart from the medical bill cost being taken from me and then returned and the cruise line having now threatened us with legal action we cannot seek any financial redress.  The complaint is about failure in duty of care.  I have a lawyer who is looking at compensation and this is why arbitration is considered at this stage a better solution.

 

I'm pretty sure these posts will disappear rather quickly but thanks for everyone's concern.

You are correct that whilst your TA has an obligation to take up the case with the cruise line, there is no obligation for the cruise line to respond.

 

If they are threatening to sue you to reclaim funds, they won't want to respond through fear of prejudicing their own arguments. One of the best legal moves is to send your Letter Before Action threatening to sue them.

 

Happy to discuss further in abstract offline - drop me an email.

[Kopchadder8]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:59 PM, Megabear2 said:

Unfortunately we cannot say that is the case.  The problem being faced by everyone is that travel insurance policies separate covid from other illnesses and treat claims in a separate way.  The rules they have in place in their policies are actually quite out of date in the modern covid era but it very much suits them.  Having a specific separate covid policy within a policy (which is what they effectively offer) means claims are in very grey areas with crusing.

 

The cruise lines are sailing on terms made up on the hoof, also very out of date, and as a result the passenger is caught in the middle.  Prior to covid the health questionnaire was a relatively small piece of paper handed to you at the terminal and to be frank was mainly looking for signs of norovirus.  Anyone refused boarding at the port would have a valid cancellation insurance claim, simple and straightforward. Now with the three day before online job it's become draconian and unfair.  The current purpose of the questionnaire is to search for covid but the questionnaire is so generic it includes almost any common ailment.  Not fit for either purpose at this stage in the pandemic. The insurer is left to choose which section he wants to judge a claim under and in many cases if the word "covid" rears its head that section is chosen and consequently there is deemed no valid claim.

 

However if it is looked at under the "normal" terms of cancellation there may well be a valid claim in some instances.  The original poster on this thread had an illness which was technically not covid and being treated by a doctor.  Her claim under the cancellation clause would most likely succeed but those denied boarding with her would have difficulty.  Similarly Kopchadder's wife is unwell, albeit with the common cold.  Normally no one would make an insurance claim for having the common cold but in light of P&O denying boarding based on their questionnaire and a refusal to even discuss the issue it may well be that is the route Kopchadder takes.  Again, however, his in laws will have difficulty.

 

Until the letter from P&O is seen and the reason for refused boarding is fully explained it is therefore impossible to say whether or not an insurance claim will succeed.  

 

Everything depends on the use of the covid being the reason for cancellation.

Firstly let me say since we were kicked off the boat we have had one conversation with P and O, to ask for the insurance letter. It has arrived and it says "we were not permitted to travel due to failing the precruise health declaration and we incurred the cancellation charge of £3058 ( full cruise costs) as per p and o standard Terms and conditions". Can't imagine this will sway our insurance. Not heard anything more from p and o, nothing at all from the Exec contact, and just the standard kick it into the long grass get back to you in 28 days from guest support complaint line. We went to the media, not really in the hope of them getting our money back, but trying to get P and O to stop this unjust and immoral process to save the hundreds of people like us having to go through this emotional roller-coaster of immediate cancellation. No-one from the media has replied  so it seems it will continue.

[Megabear2]

21 minutes ago, Kopchadder8 said:

Firstly let me say since we were kicked off the boat we have had one conversation with P and O, to ask for the insurance letter. It has arrived and it says "we were not permitted to travel due to failing the precruise health declaration and we incurred the cancellation charge of £3058 ( full cruise costs) as per p and o standard Terms and conditions". Can't imagine this will sway our insurance. Not heard anything more from p and o, nothing at all from the Exec contact, and just the standard kick it into the long grass get back to you in 28 days from guest support complaint line. We went to the media, not really in the hope of them getting our money back, but trying to get P and O to stop this unjust and immoral process to save the hundreds of people like us having to go through this emotional roller-coaster of immediate cancellation. No-one from the media has replied  so it seems it will continue.

Thank you for your update. Would you kindly post the text of the letter,  not your personal details along with the number of people on your booking, whether they are on one policy, details of if they live at the same address? I have been in communication with P&O's Executive Office today and mentioned your case, albeit as just we have spoken by chat online.

 

If you are willing to provide the requested information above NOT any personal information, I hope I may be able to help.

 

Meanwhile check the date for your first communication - presumably by telephone on the day they cancelled you but also when you wrote and received the generic reply and let me know what date the 28 days will be up.

 

I'm currently involved with the FCA and my MP on this - the latter is a bit busy but is waiting to see P&O's final reply before raising the issue elsewhere.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Megabear2

[Megabear2]

I promised to update everyone interested on my discussions with P&O after Adam Edinburgh of Holiday Extras replied on the issue.  I have behind the scenes put the relevant clauses to most of the major travel insurers and to a man they agreed with Adam Edinburgh that there would be little or no cover based on P&O's website clauses.  This has led me to speak with both FCA and ABTA and between us we have concluded this is a P&O problem of unfair terms and conditions.  I have also spoken with a couple of legal contacts who also believe this to be the case.  As a result I made contact with P&O on 3 October informing them of my concerns.  A couple of brief conversations have occurred in which the agents have stated they are not allowed to discuss insurance issues and I need to wait for the results of an investigation at the highest level.  I have therefore allowed the 28 day period from 3 October to conclude, this expiring today.

 

As a result I wrote this morning to the Executive Office asking for my promised reply.  The text was as follows (some personal information as been redacted from this but hopefully you get the gist):

 

Quote

Good morning.  Further to my email of 3 October and your acknowledgement of 6 October as set out below, it is now 28 days since I first wrote to you on this issue, although my initial enquiry on your guest relations email address remains unacknowledged, as does the contact from your legal team promised in April this year when I first raised my query on insurance issues.  

As explained in my email of 3 October my enquiry on insurance matters has become important once more due to the imminent cruises to be taken by my family in December. It is many months since you were originally asked for clarification and since September you have stopped all forms of future cruise credit in the event a passenger has problems which makes clarification even more essential. 

Since raising this issue with you in October and asking for full clarity on your knowledge of the cover offered by your own recommended insurer, Holiday Extras, I have carried out a large amount of research within the UK travel insurance market and also on social media and cruise forums. 

This research has confirmed that the bulk of the UK travel insurers would not offer cover for the two clauses in your terms and conditions that I asked Mr Edinburgh for his company's stance on.  They are as one: these are not insurable risks as per Mr Adam Edinburgh's reply to me and it would therefore appear my fears of being uninsured in the event you refuse boarding for any of the items on your questionnaire are correct. 

I have also come across three recent incidents on social media where you have refused boarding and cancelled bookings, including third parties from non related households, at the time of completion and submission of your health questionnaire.  All three of this reported cases involved a common cold or a long standing cough which were not in any way covid related.  I am aware from online chat with one of these unfortunate people that your response has been to send him a letter to forward to his insurer to allow him to claim.  I have not seen this letter but after discussing these types of event unofficially with ABTA and the FCA, they have indicated it is extremely doubtful that a claim would succeed, particularly for the gentleman's extended family who also had their bookings cancelled without any supplemental questions or looking into the "illness" which caused the cancellation. 

As previously mentioned I have already spoken to ABTA in light of Mr Edinburgh's reply to me that these events would not be, in his opinion, insurable.  This contact led to my writing to your offices to offer your company a fair chance to investigate and discuss the position fully with UK insurers, in particular your recommended one, Holiday Extras.  It was hoped that you would use this 28 days to understand the complexities of the UK travel insurance industry and find and publish a suitable solution for these apparently uninsurable events.   

If, as P&O and Cunard state, these are insurable events, it would be helpful to hear from you under which section of a policy and on what grounds.  As you have seen from Mr Edinburgh's reply to me, a medical practitioner would be required to provide a medical certificate for a claim to be considered.  The common cold is not something you are encouraged to call your doctor to discuss, particularly at a time when the NHS are under extreme pressure with major illnesses, and yet the gentleman I have chatted with informs me that was what his wife had at the point he and his family had their cruise cancelled.  I would politely suggest it is unreasonable to expect your customers to place such a ridiculously small matter on the shoulders of the NHS at this time. 

I would be extremely grateful to hear from you as a matter of urgency, by the close of business on Friday 4 November. Failing this I will be forced to raise the issue as a formal complaint with ABTA and also to speak with my MP, Mr John Glen.  This appears to be a fairly major issue.  I am aware that for in excess of 20 years successive governments have been concerned about misleading terms surrounding travel insurance and clarity of policies.  In this case it would appear the clarity and understanding of what policies cover rests with Carnival Corporation UK rather than the insurers. 

Incidentally, I wonder why the other sister company to P&O and Cunard, Princess, apparently appears to still offer FCC in these circumstances?  I have looked at their update of 21 October and their terms are far more favourable to the passenger and do not rely on Holiday Extras paying out on refusal of boarding or cabin confinement due to covid. 

I look forward to your urgent reply as requested. 

 

Unquote

 

Surprisingly a reply has been received two hours after my sending the above:

 

Quote

Thank you for your further email and we’re extremely sorry that our comprehensive reply has taken a little longer than expected.

Please rest assured that your complaint is being investigated and we will be in contact as  soon as possible.

Thank you for your ongoing patience in this regard.

Unquote

 

I have replied again:

 

Quote

 

Thank you for your acknowledgement to my email this morning.  I appreciate that at least your company has chosen on this occasion to at least offer a reply.

I note your statement that you require further time to provide a comprehensive answer, however there is no indication as to how long you are intending to take before replying.  I also note that I do not have a case reference in this issue.  Sadly my previous experience with P&O on this and other issues leads me to believe that without a case reference any complaints go back into the mix with a further 28 days for you to investigate.  I'm afraid I would not find this acceptable on such a major personal issue.

My six family members sail on Aurora on 6th December and my husband and I fly to join Britannia on 16th December.  Time is therefore of the essence if we are to travel knowing we have the comfort of a full and proper insurance policy covering all eventualities.  At present we do not have this.

I should therefore be grateful to hear when we may expect the promised full reply or at the very least an update on where your investigations currently are and with whom.

I hope you will appreciate as very loyal customers of both P&O and Cunard neither I nor my family have any desire to have to resort to ABTA, our MPs or any other medium such as consumer groups.  However without a full explanation and answer to our very valid and direct concerns I feel we are being put in a most difficult situation.

I would therefore appreciate an indication of your time frame to fit with our upcoming cruise dates.

 

Unquote

 

Just for information, I do indeed have an opportunity to discuss this with my MP and failing a suitable outcome will be making an appointment.

 

Sorry for the length of time for an update and also for the length of this post.  I am as promised still working away in my family and all cruisers' interests.

 

[Dermotsgirl]

Fantastic work, Megabear 

[Cathygh]

Amazing, very impressive Megabear and thank you for your work on this matter which affects us all

[Happy afloat]

Amazing! Thank you for this and your continued efforts. Very much appreciated.