Rhine water levels 2023 and similar topics

[notamermaid]

48 minutes ago, moonriver54 said:

@notamermaid --  Perhaps a bit off-topic....however if you don't mind...as best I recall, last winter was extremely dry in Central Europe, with many locations in the Alps having almost no snow.  Although I understand it's been unseasonably warm this winter, has all this moisture since the end of October brought larger quantities of snow to the Alps?  If so, is it accumulating or melting because of the warmer temperatures?

Oooohhh, I am afraid that goes beyond my ability to research. Sorry. Something like this should be on a Swiss website, I am sure. What I know is that Lake Constance is very well filled so there has been snow melt when there should not have been and additional rain, meaning more than the average for December. The ground is saturated and it has been unseasonable warm. However, the high Alps are of course always in snow in autumn and winter so I cannot say anything more about the topic.

 

I must admit that I am a bit worried about January and February. If we do not get lower temperatures and less rain we will see flooding again. The Rhine will remain high and Maxau gauge is still just above the threshold of flood mark I (for navigation). We will get rain just after New Year and the Upper Rhine (around Maxau) may well return to official flooding status then.

 

notamermaid

 

[moonriver54]

1 hour ago, notamermaid said:

Oooohhh, I am afraid that goes beyond my ability to research. Sorry. Something like this should be on a Swiss website, I am sure. What I know is that Lake Constance is very well filled so there has been snow melt when there should not have been and additional rain, meaning more than the average for December. The ground is saturated and it has been unseasonable warm. However, the high Alps are of course always in snow in autumn and winter so I cannot say anything more about the topic.

 

I must admit that I am a bit worried about January and February. If we do not get lower temperatures and less rain we will see flooding again. The Rhine will remain high and Maxau gauge is still just above the threshold of flood mark I (for navigation). We will get rain just after New Year and the Upper Rhine (around Maxau) may well return to official flooding status then.

 

notamermaid

 

After a little research I think I just got an answer to my question.  Current northern Alps snowfall levels are 225% above normal.  Wow.

 

https://www.onthesnow.co.uk/northern-alps/skireport#

[Host Jazzbeau]

2 hours ago, moonriver54 said:

After a little research I think I just got an answer to my question.  Current northern Alps snowfall levels are 225% above normal.  Wow.

 

https://www.onthesnow.co.uk/northern-alps/skireport#

So we should expect flooding next spring when it starts to melt?

[notamermaid]

8 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

So we should expect flooding next spring when it starts to melt?

I must admit that this is a worry. If we get a sudden thaw we may be up a certain creek without a paddle. A large part of Switzerland drains its water into the Rhine and of that the Aare river is the biggest contributor, carrying more water than the High Rhine itself. Just beyond the ridge South of the source is the Rhone glacier, that river as we know flows into France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aare

 

Fun geography fact. The town at the confluence of the Aare with the Rhine is called - Koblenz!

 

notamermaid

 

[ural guy]

21 hours ago, notamermaid said:

I had not noticed earlier: ural guy is also on the Alruna.

 

notamermaid

 

Yes we are on the Alruna.

 

 

Weather and river conditions always can have an impact.  We're 4 out of 5 cruises that have had some water level issues.

 

BUT:  yesterday was 53f in Breisach, and gorgeous.  From a visitor to swan class,

 

 

To a nice wander up to the cathedral,

 

 

and a nice sunset, from the vineyards above town.

 

[ural guy]

23 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

We are on the Alruna from Amsterdam to Basel NOW, and we are so lucky that we have not had to change ships or be bussed.  We have hear of parts of the Rhine where one cruise changed ships twice.  We have had minor inconveniences - MINOR - only.  Docking a couple of locations that were 10 minutes away because the docks were under water where we should have docked.

 

Still, there are so many people grumbling about these things.   River cruises have this risk Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter.  You can have low or high water levels.  When you leave for a River Cruise you just have to understand that you may have water levels that are impact your experience.  Rather, all these things are part of the experience.

I agree with you, except that no way in Koln Viking Winter Haven is 10 minutes away from our planned docking.  We were over an hour from the Dom, 30 minutes to the zoo.

 

Understand why this had to happen.  We were supposed to dock at 1230, tour to begin at 1400.

Instead, we arrive at 0800.  This was 'unexpected'?  How?  we were sailing against the flood level currents.  

 

And Viking wasn't using their own buses. No shuttle buses were made available.  They were 'working' on it.  So we walked.  Shuttle buses never happened.  No idea why we weren't on Viking buses from start...unless it being Christmas changed something?

 

And later saw that the #18 tram had a stop about 10 minutes from our docking location.   This info was never shared.  A simple dry erase board in the guest service area would be a big help with information flow when it's a changeable situation.

 

Viking has done a lot right, but this wasn't good.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by ural guy
clarity, hopefully

[Pushka]

19 minutes ago, ural guy said:

I agree with you, except that no way in Koln Viking Winter Haven is 10 minutes away from our planned docking.  We were over an hour from the Dom, 30 minutes to the zoo.

 

Understand why this had to happen.  We were supposed to dock at 1230, tour to begin at 1400.

Instead, we arrive at 0800.  This was 'unexpected'?  How?  we were sailing against the flood level currents.  

 

And Viking wasn't using their own buses. No shuttle buses were made available.  They were 'working' on it.  So we walked.  Shuttle buses never happened.  No idea why we weren't on Viking buses from start...unless it being Christmas changed something?

 

And later saw that the #18 tram had a stop about 10 minutes from our docking location.   This info was never shared.  A simple dry erase board in the guest service area would be a big help with information flow when it's a changeable situation.

 

Viking has done a lot right, but this wasn't good.

 

Their communications have been poor this month. And there were little things they could have done to make it better. Like Shuttle buses. The Strasbourg markets. The last shuttle was 4.30pm even though we were not moving for the next three nights. So another night market missed (Speyer, Rudesheim also). We were on a Viking branded bus on a day trip to  Colmar and Riquehar. We had to ride from Strasbourg as Breisach was flooded. So much longer drive. Even the guide wasn't happy as she lived in Breisach. The crows were significant but as there was no water on the Viking bus we had to queue for ages to use the bathroom there. That took us 25 minutes in Riquehar when we only had just over an hour at these markets. Because we had to be back onboard at 4pm. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Pushka

[notamermaid]

10 hours ago, ural guy said:

And Viking wasn't using their own buses. No shuttle buses were made available.

I have seen the dedicated Viking tour buses parked along the Moselle and occasionally in traffic on the Rhine river roads. Unless tour bus drivers and local drivers were all off work and with their families for Christmas that shuttle should have been there. Viking, do better next time. In winter or in the dark I find that it is not acceptable to ask passengers to rely on public transport and not even provide ideas for safe transport, tram/taxi, etc. Hanging around for a shuttle? There are small 8-seaters (taxi/chauffeur companies) for hire. I could be an option at least for a few not so mobile people. As I have been to Niehl I will say that even during the day I would not feel comfortable walking around there for long. I have travelled on trains, trams, I find it perfectly fine but trying to find your way out of an industrial harbour to get to the city centre is asking too much, especially in a foreign country with foreign language (Niehl is a former fishing village, now a suburb, do not expect to bump into an Anglophone at every corner). No way is this good, that is not luxury river cruise line, that is sub-standard logistics and communication.

@Pushka roads close to the river can flood, tour bus organizing can be tricky and the logistics of docking for a large river cruise ship can be likewise. There are not that many docking areas of comfort for passengers in that area. Speyer to Cologne is much easier. But again, like I mentioned the occurrence of using Nierstein dock, there are ways around it and a company, as I indicated before, can always admit "defeat" and cancel the (remainder of the) trip. It can be done and has been done. Viking has the policy of taking you everywhere in a coach and end the trip on the day it is supposed to end in the place it is supposed to end. They have completed their service and given you a complete journey. From a European Union customer point of view, well, that is not enough to justify the expense. You in Australia have it appears similarly good customer policies. Let us say, I would demand more of my company for the thousands of dollars paid. Again, logistics are a challenge but Viking has been on the rivers for enough years to know the geography, the supply chains, etc. And have dealt with low and high water enough times to know what it is like. The landing stages at Cologne flooded? Let's just say that for the locals there are plans, graphs and lists of what road floods at what centimetre, i.e. river level height. Check it once, remember it and note it down for all ships across the fleet. Perhaps this is already done of course. The details for the KD docking for example are all online: https://www.riverdocking.com/de/anleger/koeln-altstadtufer

This season we have had unfortunately few glances into how other companies have reacted. I will put a question to that effect in the Christmas market cruises thread.

Phew, difficult to get back to calmer thoughts after this. I just get a tad dare I say annoyed when I read the same woes with one company again and again. I guess the positive mantra for this is: there is always room for improvement.

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

Music. New Year's Eve is a day of fun, laughter and - if you are in Germany - the day to watch a British comedy sketch almost unknown to the British...

 

So to lift the mood from my previous post here is my suggestion for uplifting music. If you are keen on the more classical stuff and prefer the Danube, Johann Strauss jr.'s Waltz "Blue Danube" is a festive piece. So uplifting.

 

Fitting for the day in name, I have chosen for my dinner's last preparation the Music for Fireworks by Händel. A British composer - hang on, the a Umlaut? Yes, I tend to go with the original spelling as Händel was German. The fireworks music was commissioned not for a day like this or a royal birthday or such. He wrote it for the celebrations of the peace treaty of Aix-La-Chapelle in 1748 and it was first performed in London.

 

We are ahead of most of you here on CC - Happy New Year to Australia and New Zealand! - so if you would like to see our Lichtermeer - the sea of lights - and the fireworks why not check out Feratel. This is Koblenz for example: https://www.feratel.com/en/webcams/germany/koblenz.html

 

I hope life is good and peaceful where ever you are when you are reading this and you can celebrate with the music of your choice and much laughter.

 

notamermaid

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

27 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

New Year's Eve is a day of fun, laughter and - if you are in Germany - the day to watch a British comedy sketch almost unknown to the British...

Don't keep us in suspense.  What British comedy sketch???

[notamermaid]

Grin. Sorry. Was actual not my intention. I mentioned it - not sure - three years ago?

 

Dinner for One.

 

It really is true, until a few years ago it was virtually unknown in Britain. Here is a short clip about the phenomenon, which I have only just found:

I cannot find a version with the German introduction. Here is one without: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORvvK47EZqw

 

 

notamermaid

 

[rcaruso]

20 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

Grin. Sorry. Was actual not my intention. I mentioned it - not sure - three years ago?

 

Dinner for One.

 

It really is true, until a few years ago it was virtually unknown in Britain. Here is a short clip about the phenomenon, which I have only just found:

I cannot find a version with the German introduction. Here is one without: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORvvK47EZqw

 

 

notamermaid

 

Happy New Year!  I was just going to mention a Dinner for One.  My German friends turned me on to it several years ago.  Also, the marzipan pink pigs for luck.

 

[notamermaid]

Happy New Year to you!

17 hours ago, rcaruso said:

Also, the marzipan pink pigs for luck.

I never knew that the pink pigs are not a tradition outside of Germany. We also say "Schwein gehabt" ((have) had pig) for someone who got luckily out of a mishap. Marzipan is of course a very German thing (although most likely being originally oriental) so I should have guessed that this is not really an international New Year's gift. Or has anyone seen this somewhere else?

 

A little plant of clover (Glücksklee) with a wire chimney sweep figure is also typical as a gift.

 

Still a few notes and reports of water levels before we end 2023 in writing. The flooding in other regions of Germany unfortunately continues. Along the Rhine we will see the levels rise again and the official flooding status for Maxau gauge is still expected to return on 3/4 January. But with few ships now on the river I will reduce the reporting to a minimum.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[notamermaid]

By the way, I have in the back of my mind the info that Viking is sailing throughout winter this year. I still do not think it is a good idea on the Rhine. But let's see how it goes. It is this itinerary and incidentally the ship that has just carried two of our river cruisers here on CC up the river this last week, will have the honour of sailing in January proper, not just over New Year, down "my" river: the Viking Alruna. Together with her sister ship Viking Tialfi sailing upstream:

https://www.vikingrivercruises.com/cruise-destinations/europe/treasures-of-the-rhine/2024-amsterdam-basel/pricing.html

 

notamermaid

 

[moonriver54]

My wife and I have been watching river cruise line offerings for late winter.  I notice Ama Waterways has several (deeply discounted) river cruises scheduled for the month of February.

[notamermaid]

46 minutes ago, moonriver54 said:

 I notice Ama Waterways has several (deeply discounted) river cruises scheduled for the month of February.

Interesting. Not sure that I would enjoy that much going in February but the prices do look good: https://www.amawaterways.com/destination/europe-river-cruises/2024/enchanting-rhine/dates-prices

March 17 on the Amalucia is an inviting date, but March 21 on the Amasiena is also good. Wonder why the latter is so much discounted.

 

notamermaid

 

[moonriver54]

2 hours ago, notamermaid said:

Interesting. Not sure that I would enjoy that much going in February but the prices do look good: https://www.amawaterways.com/destination/europe-river-cruises/2024/enchanting-rhine/dates-prices

March 17 on the Amalucia is an inviting date, but March 21 on the Amasiena is also good. Wonder why the latter is so much discounted.

 

notamermaid

 

We watched prices this time last year and Avalon began publishing deep discounts for the 2023 season during January.  So far from what I've observed only Ama Waterways has been deeply discounting their 2024 season trips...and only for late winter...February/March.  Hopefully we'll see some April/May 2024 discounts published over the next few weeks.  That said, European travel is supposed to be up about 20% this season...France is hosting the Summer Olympics from 26 July to 11 August...so perhaps we won't see as many good deals.  Fingers crossed!

Edited January 1 by moonriver54

[notamermaid]

I linked in the Christmas market thread to Adam Coulter's trip on the Rhine. He too got caught in the flooding and a small part of his itinerary was changed. During his sailing he sent one report and included photos of the unplanned stop from Andernach. I must say that there are worse places to be stranded in and certainly far worse docking locations. This is what happened: https://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/news/live-from-tui-skyla-how-high-water-levels-affect-a-river-cruise-in-europe

The company TUI has a real advantage with those flights over other companies.

 

About the geyser in the article. This is officially the highest cold water geyser in the world. It works on the basis of CO2 build-up in the ground. Originally this was a bore hole for "mining" carbon dioxide for commercially producing mineral water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andernach_Geyser

It is closed at night and in winter with a valve. The CO2 then rises up naturally and escapes through the ground and water.

 

notamermaid

 

[Pushka]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:08 PM, notamermaid said:

I have seen the dedicated Viking tour buses parked along the Moselle and occasionally in traffic on the Rhine river roads. Unless tour bus drivers and local drivers were all off work and with their families for Christmas that shuttle should have been there. Viking, do better next time. In winter or in the dark I find that it is not acceptable to ask passengers to rely on public transport and not even provide ideas for safe transport, tram/taxi, etc. Hanging around for a shuttle? There are small 8-seaters (taxi/chauffeur companies) for hire. I could be an option at least for a few not so mobile people. As I have been to Niehl I will say that even during the day I would not feel comfortable walking around there for long. I have travelled on trains, trams, I find it perfectly fine but trying to find your way out of an industrial harbour to get to the city centre is asking too much, especially in a foreign country with foreign language (Niehl is a former fishing village, now a suburb, do not expect to bump into an Anglophone at every corner). No way is this good, that is not luxury river cruise line, that is sub-standard logistics and communication.

@Pushka roads close to the river can flood, tour bus organizing can be tricky and the logistics of docking for a large river cruise ship can be likewise. There are not that many docking areas of comfort for passengers in that area. Speyer to Cologne is much easier. But again, like I mentioned the occurrence of using Nierstein dock, there are ways around it and a company, as I indicated before, can always admit "defeat" and cancel the (remainder of the) trip. It can be done and has been done. Viking has the policy of taking you everywhere in a coach and end the trip on the day it is supposed to end in the place it is supposed to end. They have completed their service and given you a complete journey. From a European Union customer point of view, well, that is not enough to justify the expense. You in Australia have it appears similarly good customer policies. Let us say, I would demand more of my company for the thousands of dollars paid. Again, logistics are a challenge but Viking has been on the rivers for enough years to know the geography, the supply chains, etc. And have dealt with low and high water enough times to know what it is like. The landing stages at Cologne flooded? Let's just say that for the locals there are plans, graphs and lists of what road floods at what centimetre, i.e. river level height. Check it once, remember it and note it down for all ships across the fleet. Perhaps this is already done of course. The details for the KD docking for example are all online: https://www.riverdocking.com/de/anleger/koeln-altstadtufer

This season we have had unfortunately few glances into how other companies have reacted. I will put a question to that effect in the Christmas market cruises thread.

Phew, difficult to get back to calmer thoughts after this. I just get a tad dare I say annoyed when I read the same woes with one company again and again. I guess the positive mantra for this is: there is always room for improvement.

notamermaid

 

We didn't even make it to the final port though (Basel) and Breisach was an arrival at 2am and we were dispatched at 7.30 am in the dark. Several had to disembark at 2.30am for the longer drive to Basel airport. 
 

Is it reasonable to say that on the 10 December that the floods upstream were going to continue, or worsen, especially as early as December 1 ships were already prevented from berthing in Breisach? Was this the kind of information that was readily available at the time?  I fully understand that berths were simply unusable. At the point of our departure in Koblenz, after which it became a cobble bus trip, then I'd have been happy to have been given the option to leave. I understand many did, likely at their own cost. 
 

 

[ural guy]

Pushka- Understand your frustrations. We had minor hiccups, and sailing a day earlier may have given us bigger problems.

 

Still frustrated about information flow.  In Breisach, we were scheduled to leave at 2400, that was moved up to 2300.  An announcement was made roughly 2100 or so?, I heard it in cabin, daughter/bf/wife were in lounge, announcement came in garbled there.

 

I go out for walk around 2100, super nice front desk lady (fdl)calls out to make sure I know about earlier departure, thumbs up.  Daughter/bf leave for walk about an hour later, and fdl is helping another cruiser, and daughter wanders off.  Fdl calls my wife around 2230 asking if daughter is back on board.  Nope.

 

Luckily bf has a data plan, wife calls using ships wifi, and they return, crisis averted.  My point, is a 25 Euro white erase board would solve this information flow issue.  Several times we had to stick our head into the hallway from as our cabin system wasn't working.  (Volume knob doesn't have positive stop, so it spins and spins...I think if it went completely around sometimes it would quit working.  Daughters cabin had same issue, system would reset after a bit.)

 

Lastly: I did text the moved up return time to the group, they thought it meant the tour tomorrow was moved somehow?  No idea, they were playing UNO in their own happy little world.

 

On Riviera for the wife's retirement cruise in October 24, nice to have another comparison point.

 

 

[ural guy]

18 hours ago, notamermaid said:

By the way, I have in the back of my mind the info that Viking is sailing throughout winter this year. I still do not think it is a good idea on the Rhine. But let's see how it goes. It is this itinerary and incidentally the ship that has just carried two of our river cruisers here on CC up the river this last week, will have the honour of sailing in January proper, not just over New Year, down "my" river: the Viking Alruna. Together with her sister ship Viking Tialfi sailing upstream:

https://www.vikingrivercruises.com/cruise-destinations/europe/treasures-of-the-rhine/2024-amsterdam-basel/pricing.html

 

notamermaid

 

 We had been comparatively lucky with temperatures in the high 40's, lights were still up, we found a few Winter markets running so got our gluhwein fix in.  It looked pretty for winter.

 

At one point,  I was walking behind some people during a tour, and heard the comment, 'I guess all the lights come down in a bit...wow, this could be really grey in February'.  Having lived in Germany for 4 winters, I couldn't agree more.

 

For people who have cruised in the past, and have seen the castles and town squares in their glory, I would say to go and have fun, especially if you find a good deal.  

 

For any first timer, I would say to wait until spring.  Having cold rain or snow all day, it being a Sunday with shops closed, and you're in port until 2300?  That would get old, and the cobblestones would be so slick.

 

[ural guy]

Remembered I sent this to spouse/daughter, our Winterhaven route to freedom, lucky we were only 4 ships deep.

 

I don't think Viking ever put out cones to show the route out of port if you wanted to walk.  Spouse provided guidance to some lost souls, I alerted the front desk that there was an elderly couple coming along and there was no way they were going to make it up that gang plank that was at about a 30° angle. They may have wanted to have posted a sailor there, or at least the ship's phone number and a note to call for assistance. The dock area was empty at that time, there was no way that couple was getting up without help.

 

Viking had guides at Heathrow airport to make sure we got from one jetway to another. That was unexpected and very nice. They could have done better in Winter Haven.

 

[notamermaid]

41 minutes ago, ural guy said:

I don't think Viking ever put out cones to show the route out of port if you wanted to walk. 

If that is the case, I do find that unacceptable. We need to bear in mind that Viking uses this location albeit with a coach trip involved on a regular itinerary. And in low water. I was there in broad daylight - and for fun - and still needed quite a few minutes to actually find the entrance to the Viking dock. It is a large confusing industrial area with more than one basin.

 

7 hours ago, Pushka said:

Is it reasonable to say that on the 10 December that the floods upstream were going to continue, or worsen, especially as early as December 1 ships were already prevented from berthing in Breisach? Was this the kind of information that was readily available at the time?  I fully understand that berths were simply unusable.

Not sure that I could get the timeline together and help you with any more details. But will give it a try some time later. I will post the graph for Maxau gauge when I do the recap for December.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

2 hours ago, ural guy said:

 We had been comparatively lucky with temperatures in the high 40's, lights were still up, we found a few Winter markets running so got our gluhwein fix in.  It looked pretty for winter.

 

At one point,  I was walking behind some people during a tour, and heard the comment, 'I guess all the lights come down in a bit...wow, this could be really grey in February'.  Having lived in Germany for 4 winters, I couldn't agree more.

 

For people who have cruised in the past, and have seen the castles and town squares in their glory, I would say to go and have fun, especially if you find a good deal.  

 

For any first timer, I would say to wait until spring.  Having cold rain or snow all day, it being a Sunday with shops closed, and you're in port until 2300?  That would get old, and the cobblestones would be so slick.

 

I agree. The temperatures are pleasant if you do not miss the snow. If you do not like the cold you are in luck right now. The lights are only up till 6 January normally. Then we go into "hibernation" and that is how I still see it for river cruising. Rest, sleep, recover. Come to Europe in spring.

 

It can be fun to see the castles in winter but going up to Marksburg Castle in the rain on the cobblestones with your winter jacket on, bracing the wind above the Rhine valley? Not for me. Walking tour of Speyer, Mainz, etc. - that would be okay. Unless it is Sunday with the shops closed and the locals at home.

 

Arosa is another company that now offers river cruises in winter. Those are return trips of four nights, a bit more laid-back and marketed mostly as a short time out of everyday life combined with spa and wellness if you so wish (I am not sure but I think you buy a package for that). Focus on the ship experience for a few days of calm and be happy when the weather cooperates - that sounds alright to me.

 

You do not want to see the drab weather with rain we have today, and it is bound to stay this way. Wind also. I am certainly not going out further than to the shops and then retire to the sofa and hot chocolate (I am off work for another few days).

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

I said to @Pushka in previous post that finding a docking location from Speyer to Cologne is easier than further upstream. That is correct, as they are very frequent there, but the experience of Adam Coulter has made me think. With apparently so many submerged in water and not usable, space along the Rhine must be tight in places. Where do you put all the ships? While commercial shipping just needs a suitable anchor space with a gangplank, a river cruise ship needs a more sophisticated, safe berth for people to get onto land and several landing stages are not suitable for 135m ships. Tricky.

 

@ural guy posted a photo of Boppard. I found a video of the previous flooding wave earlier in December. Here it is. At 1:36 you can see that the landing stage of Viking is flooded and inaccessible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqY7i31jLQA

 

By the way, the promenade in Boppard is very nice to stroll along, I enjoyed it a couple of years ago in a dryer state shortly before Christmas.

 

notamermaid