Gratuity is Out Of Hand

[Potstech]

As long as their is a daily gratuity we will only tip our room steward an amount we feel is proper for services rendered.  That is and will always be the way we do it. It is not up to the customer to increase the pay for all the employees of the cruise line.  That is what the cruise fare is for.  We agree that the tipping culture is getting out of hand and will no longer participate.  Let the cruise lines pay a "decent" salary as we will no longer subsidize it.

[Guest ldtr]

8 minutes ago, Rudy888 said:

I believe that Tips were/are for 1 to 1 service. Employers can monitor the quality of food, the cleanliness of the sheets and towels but it is more difficult to monitor the performance of 1 to 1 service though it can be done. I do not believe tips were/are for distribution to everyone in the chain even though they contribute to 1 to 1 service. The employer has the responsibility to fairly compensate the cooks, janitors, dishwashers etc.

If the cruise lines were to do away with the current tip system and raise the salaries of those that are part of the tip pool system to the same degree and rolled that additional amount into the basic fares it would negatively impact the passengers, the cruise lines and the employees.

 

1. Passengers - Tips are paid on board, not in advance.  If the tips are done away with and rolled into fares then the fare would increase.  While the total amount spent with fares and tips would be the same other expenses that are based upon the fare such as trip insurance would increase resulting in a higher overall cost to some passengers.

 

2. Cruise line.  Under the current gratuity system, the money paid is not considered to be revenue or expense for the cruise line under US accounting law.  If that changed then it would the money collected would be revenue and the monies paid out would be expense.  This would impact reported net margin which could impact stock price.  It also might mean under some countries that the cruise line could be responsible for more payroll taxes. The cruise line may also have to pay more in recruiting fees which are often salary based.

 

3. Crew - depending upon the countries that the crew is from gratuities may be treated differently then salary.  This may impact the amount of taxes that the crew member must pay even if the gross income were to be the same.

[Ken the cruiser]

2 hours ago, NavyCruiser said:

Our group of 14 just came back from a 7 nights Valentine's week cruise.  We all agree to pool our cash "tips" together for our Waiter, Asst Waiter, & Section Head Waiter, who took care of our tables of 6 & 8 in the MDR.  Also "tipped" our cabin attendant in cash.  All with cash "tips" half on first day & half on 6th day.  We "tipped" extra for lobster night.  It took less than 2 minutes at customer service desk to remove auto grats for all 7 cabins at the same time on the first day.  We all also "tipped" extra at breakfasts, lunches, & tea time for our group.

In all, think we all cash "tipped" 20% over & above the auto grats amount if we just left it alone, but everyone believed that we truly received Outstanding service for all staff.

This is our preferred way to "tip" as a group.

We've done it this way for 10+ group cruises, from groups of 12 - 40.

Not right.  Not wrong.  Just the perfect way for us, & don't really what others feel about it...

So exactly how does that work if some in your group paid extra for either the Plus or Premium package, since it’s a flat $60 per person now for gratuities, internet and beverages? Heck, if they booked their cruise early enough, it could have been as low as $40 pp/day. I imagine GS just refunds the daily gratuity charge to your account as nonrefundable OBC, or do they actually give it back to you as refundable OBC?

[SantaFeFan]

26 minutes ago, Potstech said:

As long as their is a daily gratuity we will only tip our room steward an amount we feel is proper for services rendered.  That is and will always be the way we do it. It is not up to the customer to increase the pay for all the employees of the cruise line.  That is what the cruise fare is for.  We agree that the tipping culture is getting out of hand and will no longer participate.  Let the cruise lines pay a "decent" salary as we will no longer subsidize it.

 

I laugh every time I read comments like this. People who feel this way have little understanding that it will ALWAYS be the customer who pays for the employee's salaries.

 

In fact, the customer also pays the captain's salary, the CEO of the company's salary, the purchase price of the ship when it was delivered, the fuel, the food, the company liability insurance, the rent for the land based headquarters, etc. etc. 

 

Do you actually think that salaries are paid with some kind of magic money printing machine that the company turns on when paychecks are due and that this isn't paid by the customer? SMH.  

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by SantaFeFan

[PurpleTraveller]

In Australia gratuities are included in the fare when booking a Princess cruise that has AUD as the on board currency but if sailing elsewhere then gratuities can either be prepaid or are added onto the on board account daily. When booking a Celebrity or Royal Caribbean cruise in Australia gratuities are included in the fare for all sailings. I much prefer to have the gratuities included in the fare than have to pay them later. Having the gratuities included in the fare is a positive not a deterrent and after sailing Princess for the last ten years I now have a number of future Celebrity cruises booked.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by PurpleTraveller

[wowzz]

2 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I saw this comparison chart on a recent NCL thread and thought it was an interesting comparison. From the way it looks, Princess' daily gratuity charges for a 7-day double-occupancy cruise looks pretty much in the middle when compared to the other cruise lines.

 

Cruise Line	Standard Service Fee	Premium Service Fee
Norwegian Cruise Line	$280.00	$350.00
Oceania Cruises	$252.00	$322.00
Celebrity Cruise Line	$245.00	$294.00
Carnival Cruise Line	$224.00	$252.00
Holland America Line	$224.00	$245.00
Princess Cruises	$224.00	$252.00
Royal Caribbean International	$224.00	$259.00
Disney Cruise Line	$203.00	$217.00
MSC Cruises	$196.00	$196.00
Costa Cruise Line	$168.00	$168.00
Windstar Cruises	$168.00	$168.00
Cunard Cruise Line	$161.00	$189.00

 

NCL wins the service charge race ! - Page 3 - Norwegian Cruise Line - Cruise Critic Community

 

 

I see the list excludes P&O (UK) where the amount in each column would be a big fat zero !

[antsp]

1 minute ago, wowzz said:

I see the list excludes P&O (UK) where the amount in each column would be a big fat zero !

P and O tips are included in the fare

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, antsp said:

P and O tips are included in the fare

Exactky, and fares have not increased as a consequence.

[Guest ldtr]

24 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Exactky, and fares have not increased as a consequence.

What is your basis for that conclusion?

 

Did they one time charge tips and then drop them without raising fares?

 

I have found that I am paying a higher amount on a P&O cruise to the same area in the same class cabin, than I am on Princess to the same area. The difference is a little more then Princess fare plus gratuities.

[cr8tiv1]

Let's compare apples to apples:  Cruise Hawaii

 

Cruise on Princess interior with beverage package = $2000 for 15 days

15 days = $1100/pp (average $1000 to $1200 (dependent on time of year)

Beverage package = $60 x 15 days = $900 (tip/wifi/beverages)

 

Cruise around Hawaii on NCL = $3278 for 7 days

7 days = $2998 (not current sale price of $1499/even then, more expensive per day)

includes:  Beverage package, specialty dining, wifi, and excursion(s).

Does not include gratuities $280 (as posted on page 1)

 

I did not add insurance nor taxes/fee nor airfare/hotel pre cruise.  

 

If Princess rolled gratuities into base fare, we would have to pay more for insurance and taxes. But by not including it, it allows passengers to remove gratuities.  

 

Keep in mind that NCL is required by law to pay their employees standard minimum wages since they are American flagged in Hawaiian waters.  That was part of the "agreement".  

 

Bottom line for me.  I would rather pay a lower base fare.  Then have the choice to do add ons (Beverage Package/additional tips (leave auto in place), excursions, specialty restaurants, etc.  From my one and done time on NCL, they had too many pay for dine restaurants.  You really have to do your comparison to see what is manageable for you.  

 

 

[wowzz]

2 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Did they one time charge tips and then drop them without raising fares?

Yes, in a word.

Giving the vagaries of cruise pricing, it is always difficult to compare like for like,  but the cost of my P&O cruises post the abolition of autotips have been roughly the same as pre-abolition. 

And my next two Princess cruises are more expensive than the P&O equivalents.

However,  the point remains that P&O have abolished autotips,  and their prices have remained competitive,  so it shows it can be done. 

[Guest ldtr]

24 minutes ago, Broadside said:

 

Your inability to provide any documented response at all to the reasonable question posed is not the non gotcha you think it is 

Most companies do not make public internal policies on compensation and personnel ratings.  So it was a question requesting public documentation that was unlikely to exist.

 

Even though most companies do not make such documentation public, employees do discuss such things and if you get to know them information can be obtained.

 

That said do not know what current policy is on cash tips  after removing gratuities. A few years ago it was standard practice that a list was distributed of those that removed gratuities and any tips received needed to be turned in. Cash tips given with gratuities left in place could be kept.

 

Now with open dining gratuities are less linked between specific employees and passengers about the only person that is tightly identified is the cabin steward.

 

Also with an increasing percentage of passengers on package fares the potential for gratuity removal is less impact full on the pool.

 

So have not heard how cash tips are handled these days.

[startedwithamouse]

Agreed.

 

They need to roll the extra $60 per day per person into the standard fare and include everything.

 

This would eliminate the "we take off the tips" crowd. 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by startedwithamouse

[PTMary]

10 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Yes, in a word.

Giving the vagaries of cruise pricing, it is always difficult to compare like for like,  but the cost of my P&O cruises post the abolition of autotips have been roughly the same as pre-abolition. 

And my next two Princess cruises are more expensive than the P&O equivalents.

However,  the point remains that P&O have abolished autotips,  and their prices have remained competitive,  so it shows it can be done. 

 

P&O eliminated tips in May 2019. Prices before were definitely cheaper. We have been pricing cruises on P&O out of Southampton for quite some time because we have friends we have been trying to convince to take a cruise with us. 

 

Pricing rose by about 20 percent immediately after the change, and have not come down much. 

 

Plus, the price difference between P&O and Princess is due to Princess being a more premium product, with P&O being more a budget product. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by PTMary

[Broadside]

1 hour ago, ldtr said:

Most companies do not make public internal policies on compensation and personnel ratings.  So it was a question requesting public documentation that was unlikely to exist.

 

Even though most companies do not make such documentation public, employees do discuss such things and if you get to know them information can be obtained.

 

That said do not know what current policy is on cash tips  after removing gratuities. A few years ago it was standard practice that a list was distributed of those that removed gratuities and any tips received needed to be turned in. Cash tips given with gratuities left in place could be kept.

 

Now with open dining gratuities are less linked between specific employees and passengers about the only person that is tightly identified is the cabin steward.

 

Also with an increasing percentage of passengers on package fares the potential for gratuity removal is less impact full on the pool.

 

So have not heard how cash tips are handled these days.

 

Thank you for your informative post. I can not claim any insider info on this matter either way but one imagines the situation you have described would be extremely impractical to police. 

 

There are also many potential variations to increase complexity where passengers reduce tips but leave an amount on. How would they have processed any cash tip pooling requirements in that situation. 

[RNRcruisers]

Our first cruise was in 1990. At that time there were suggested gratuities that were planned for and paid in cash at the end of the cruise. These were for the room steward and MDR waiters and head waiter. We would also add a tip to a drink from the bar. We didn’t tip all of the people behind the scenes and were not expected to. Now it is deducted automatically, for convenience supposedly. Did they change the way they pay everyone else? Why are we now tipping dishwashers and janitors? We don’t remove gratuities and we tip extra when it is warranted, but in my mind I am still tipping for good service, not to pay for salaries that the cruise lines don’t want to. 

[cr8tiv1]

13 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

Agreed. They need to roll the extra $60 per day per person into the standard fare and include everything. This would eliminate the "we take off the tips" crowd. 

 

The only part I disagree with your plan here...is...$60.  If they are going to roll it all in under fares, it should be less than $50.  $60 would imply that EVERYONE on the ship takes part in the beverages.  If it was $40-$50 a day (wifi = $15/crew appreciation = $17 (average)/total $32 + $18 = $50.  That doesn't even account for the number of elite on board that would get a 50% reduction in wifi charge.  Princess would still be coming out ahead.  

[Guest ldtr]

7 minutes ago, Broadside said:

 

Thank you for your informative post. I can not claim any insider info on this matter either way but one imagines the situation you have described would be extremely impractical to police. 

 

There are also many potential variations to increase complexity where passengers reduce tips but leave an amount on. How would they have processed any cash tip pooling requirements in that situation. 

My understanding from back then that list indicated those that removed gratuities. Do not know about those that only reduced the amount. They may or may not have been on the list. Never asked.

[PTMary]

12 minutes ago, Broadside said:

 

Thank you for your informative post. I can not claim any insider info on this matter either way but one imagines the situation you have described would be extremely impractical to police. 

 

There are also many potential variations to increase complexity where passengers reduce tips but leave an amount on. How would they have processed any cash tip pooling requirements in that situation. 

Not impactable at all. At the end of a cruise, all monetary matters are reconciled by the purser and his department. Every passenger's account is verified for expenditures made and if they are paid for. Every passenger's account will have recorded what package, if any, the passenger has, or whether that passenger has prepaid the gratuities if no package was purchased. If a passenger reduces their tips by 50%, it is recorded when the reduction is made, and the financial software onboard will attach it to the passenger's account.

 

If at the end of the cruise the system flags a passenger's reduction, it will be taken into account by the purser and adjustments will be made accordingly. All cash tips received must be submitted by the crew (which they are required to by contract obligations) and will be recorded in the crew member's account. If tips have not been reduced, they will be reimbursed that tip amount in their paycheck. If tips have been reduced, or removed completely, then the crew member's account will be deducted a comparable cash amount to what was submitted to be applied to the tip pool. 

 

Anyone in finance will see that this is a simple and easy process, helped greatly by advanced financial software. 

 

BTW: if a crew member tries to hide cash tips, they risk being disciplined, which could, in extreme cases, result in immediate firing.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by PTMary

[wowzz]

12 minutes ago, PTMary said:

Pricing rose by about 20 percent immediately after the change, and have not come down much. 

Sorry,  that has not been my experience.

Are you quoting saver or select fares, and have you taken obc into account ?

 

[Guest ldtr]

2 minutes ago, cr8tiv1 said:

 

The only part I disagree with your plan here...is...$60.  If they are going to roll it all in under fares, it should be less than $50.  $60 would imply that EVERYONE on the ship takes part in the beverages.  If it was $40-$50 a day (wifi = $15/crew appreciation = $17 (average)/total $32 + $18 = $50.  That doesn't even account for the number of elite on board that would get a 50% reduction in wifi charge.  Princess would still be coming out ahead.  

Might need to be more to make up for the passengers that would not book. Resulting in more passengers booking that take advantage of the package features. So the assumption that the current mix would remain the same may not be valid.

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, PTMary said:

Not impactable at all. At the end of a cruise, all monetary matters are reconciled by the purser and his department. Every passenger's account is verified for expenditures made and if they are paid for. Every passenger's account will have recorded what package, if any, the passenger has, or whether that passenger has prepaid the gratuities if no package was purchased. If a passenger reduces their tips by 50%, it is recorded when the reduction is made, and the financial software onboard will attach it to the passenger's account. If at the end of the cruise the system flags a passenger's reduction, it will be taken into account by the purser and adjustments will be made accordingly. Any cash tips submitted by the crew (which they are required to by contract obligations) will be recorded, filed in the crew member's account, and if tips have not been reduced, they will be reimbursed that tip amount in their paycheck. If tips have been reduced, or removed completely, then the crew member's account will be deducted a comparable cash amount submitted to be applied to the tip pool. 

 

Anyone in finance will see that this is a simple and easy process, helped greatly by advanced financial software. 

 

 

And how does this work with Princess, when the tip pool is fleet wide, and not ship specific? 

[cr8tiv1]

@ldtrNone of this would even be under discussion if Princess did not raise the beverage package, take away the coffee card, added. useless stuff like the desserts/gym classes. 

 

Most everyone (I'm stretching it here), accepted the $40 as a unpleasant but doable "necessity".  

 

Again, "fixed" something that was not broken. Totally their fault.

[PTMary]

19 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Sorry,  that has not been my experience.

Are you quoting saver or select fares, and have you taken obc into account ?

 

 

Just standard fares for peak months summer months (our friends were both teachers). No packages or add-ons were priced out as they would need to carefully watch their budget. That is why we were focusing more on P&O than on other cruise lines. 

 

Alas, the husband passed due to Covid and we are no longer pricing cruises out of Southampton. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by PTMary

[PTMary]

5 minutes ago, wowzz said:

And how does this work with Princess, when the tip pool is fleet wide, and not ship specific? 

 

Princess can easily track every crew member's accounts and make adjustments to those accounts accordingly, even if everything is pooled. It isn't rocket science - just standard corporate financial systems, which all large companies employ. Your bank does this for millions of people every day.