After Reading Numerous Posts over the last Several Weeks, These are my thoughts

[newtocruiseinblue]

On 5/12/2023 at 9:45 PM, Wakepatrol said:

I always considered myself a HAL loyalist.

Then I went on the Celebrity Beyond this March and was wowed every step of the way.

 I went from sitting in the back row of HAL shows and leaving after 10 minutes , to securing a seat 
an hour before the shows started on the Beyond. The cabin was beautiful , the ship was jaw dropping and the entertainment was off the charts. I now feel like any ship after this is five steps down. 
 

I still like HAL and I missed having a little street cred and eating in the Tamarind for a reasonable price,

What about the price difference though? Isn't beyond a little beyond on price? Just wondering...I would have to travel less if I chose beyond. I'm still doing celebrity, the newer ships seem out of my price range...

[cruisemom42]

6 hours ago, lissie said:

It's 2 Greenland ports - one on the way to Iceland one of the way back plus a day cruising through the fjord. 

 

The ban on Bar Harbor doesn't start until next year so Zaandam is calling this year (and in fact already has) 

 

When I read the news about Bar Harbor I guess there wasn't an implementation date attached, so I thought it would start this season.

 

Perhaps your cruise is not the one I original compared with then, because I do remember thinking that only one stop in Greenland would be a bit risky....

 

Anyway, enjoy -- I'll be cruising in the same time frame so hoping for the best weather for both of the cruises.

[cgolf1]

We are new to HAL and got off the Zaandam about 1.5 weeks ago for the Canada New England Cruise.

 

We loved the ship and the crew was fantastic. There were some misses I detailed in my trip report, like the MDR seating with a reservation not getting the same table and being really disorganized, Running out of gluten free buns in Dive in, lunch buffet lacking GF options and for my normal diet wife she felt the buffet was repetitive, and they ran out of amaretto. 

 

That said we won't hesitate to sail HAL again and want to see if a larger ship has more gluten free options in the buffet. I would say the food in the MDR was about even to some dishes being better with our Celebrity food on the Edge this year, but Celebrity blew HAL away with the lunch buffet. I do realize the Edge is a bigger ship, but it was the flavor of the food too. 

 

No team HAL glasses here, but we found a third line with Celebrity first, HAL and RCCL basically tied for second, but HAL would get the nod on itineraries. 

[mcrcruiser]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:02 PM, LAFFNVEGAS said:

I debated if to write this under two of the active threads on the Westerdam or just state my opinion seperately. I decided to do the latter.Below is just my personal thoughts and things that keep coming to mind as I have been reading many posts over the last several weeks. I have been closely following Westerdam since we will be sailing on her in September and loved following the Live From Japan thread by Hank.

 

I think we need to come to the realization that Holland America may be at a Cross Roads of Sinking or Cruising. I know that many HAL Loyalist like to look at the cruise line with Rose Colored Glasses but there are some facts coming out that one cannot deny. 

 

The Cut Backs are glaring especially on the 2 remaining R Class Ships and all of the Vista and Signature Class ships. Money seems to be going into the Pinnacle Class ships with a few exceptions of the oldest being the Koningsdam.

They are cutting corners on maintenance; supplies are not being delivered to ships. We are past the time of stating Supply Chain because this is not happening on any other major lines with the exception of Princess but not to the severity of HAL. Unknown if this is HAL just not ordering supplies or if vendors have cut them off for nonpayment.

Shortage of Crew is a major problem that does not seem to be a problem or at least near as severe on other lines, my guess is many crew have gone on to other cruise lines and or got out so not to have to work under the conditions they are now subject to. We have seen where other cruise lines are offering jobs at enticing bonus to get crew and many are jumping ship.

 

All of the above leads to low moral of crew, because passengers are not happy so they complain, in turn passengers complain so much that HAL has to give extra ship board credit or refund some services, but in turn the past guest most likely will not return. HAL has already started giving away lots of sailings dates that are post final payment that are not selling well as there are promotions for Mariners. 

An Interesting tidbit, comparing many Europe Cruises and even a few Alaska sailings to Princess most of the Princess categories are Wait Listed/Sold Out, those available are quite costly compared to comparable Holland America itinerary.

 

At this point HAL needs to make some major decisions. Start to fix the problems and put money into this, possibly with the help of CCL Corp. Happy Cruisers mean returning passengers which help to equal Happy Crew. Turn around would be they would not have to give away everything including dropping cruise fares, giving away Ship Board Credit to make passengers happy. This investment may take some time to reap rewards but may make it to not sink the ship. Or continue in the downward spiral of lack of provision from vendors, maintenance issues and give away free cabins to fill the ships. They have already dropped to a low in Land Side Customer Service with outsourcing that and reports continue to come in with continued reports of constant long lines at Customer Service Desk on board.. I have seen this since the restart yet did not see this on other cruise lines.  

 

From the restart they went into the mode of huge cutbacks which is very evident. Mostly noted is Entertainment and Dining. I would say at almost two years since restart they have got to see this is not working and need to make some changes. Or is it CCL Corp Plans to Sell off Holland America and at this point has no plan to invest more money to HAL.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I have 3 HAL cruises currently booked and have no plans to cancel, my September is already paid in full and December more than half paid off. But many of the things being spoke of I actually witnessed last July on the Rotterdam the Flag ship. I truly want to see a turn around for HAL but know I must cruise with lower expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

We also see HAL as you see it .We think that HAL will be on the chopping   block with CCL  .It makes sense .Then perhaps the new owners will put money into the line to make it what it once was

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, cgolf1 said:

... but Celebrity blew HAL away with the lunch buffet. I do realize the Edge is a bigger ship, but it was the flavor of the food too. 

 

No team HAL glasses here, but we found a third line with Celebrity first, HAL and RCCL basically tied for second, but HAL would get the nod on itineraries. 

 

Yes, HAL food tends to be bland. Tastier food to be found in the specialty restaurants.

 

That said, HAL and RCL are tied???? 😬

[Destiny0315]

2 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

We also see HAL as you see it .We think that HAL will be on the chopping   block with CCL  .It makes sense .Then perhaps the new owners will put money into the line to make it what it once was

CCL is too busy with the dismantling of Costa to worry about HAL atm.

[cgolf1]

38 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Yes, HAL food tends to be bland. Tastier food to be found in the specialty restaurants.

 

That said, HAL and RCL are tied???? 😬

 

Yes for us they are, but we haven't sailed on RCCL this year. If I can convince my wife she has enough vaca time and we get the Galapagos paid off who knows. Would like to see how RCCL has changed this year, as we haven't sailed them since Feb 2020 before everything shutdown.

 

Do you see HAL as a step above or below RCCL? 

 

Also the MDR food was well seasoned bordering on heavily seasoned. The spice rubbed prime rib with horseradish mustard stuff was a flavor bomb. The MDR impressed us.

Edited May 16, 2023 by cgolf1

[mcrcruiser]

On 5/13/2023 at 11:23 AM, XLVIII said:

During the shutdown, Carnival Corp was spending $650 million A MONTH just to keep everything running. They have undertaken massive debt just to stay viable as a corporation. HAL’s number one job right now is to stay afloat as a company. I’m sure they are quite aware of what the cutbacks effects have been, and would have preferred to avoid them as well. 

Maybe but HAL has shortages of labor as well which impacts all cruisers experience aboard  their ships  .Additionally ,there are no supply chain problems any longer that would impact any cruise line like in earlier times.Then add in the lack of entertainment vs other cruise lines  .You are looking at a cruise line with out a bright future & imo one that CCL will dispose of to get more cash on their books 

Edited May 16, 2023 by mcrcruiser

[BermudaBound2014]

59 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

That said, HAL and RCL are tied???? 😬

 

As cruise lines have grown I believe it is impossible to compare cruise line to cruise line. 

 

The only way to get a real comparison is to compare cruise ship to cruise ship since each line has vastly different ships. Example, you can probably compare the Rhapsody of the Seas to the Volendam since both are older/similar size. You can probably compare Pinnacle to something mid-size on RCL. But nothing in the HAL fleet can be compared to Oasis class. The products offered within each cruise line are very different as are the amenities/activities offered on each ship. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by BermudaBound2014

[MISTER 67]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:02 PM, LAFFNVEGAS said:

I debated if to write this under two of the active threads on the Westerdam or just state my opinion seperately. I decided to do the latter.Below is just my personal thoughts and things that keep coming to mind as I have been reading many posts over the last several weeks. I have been closely following Westerdam since we will be sailing on her in September and loved following the Live From Japan thread by Hank.

 

I think we need to come to the realization that Holland America may be at a Cross Roads of Sinking or Cruising. I know that many HAL Loyalist like to look at the cruise line with Rose Colored Glasses but there are some facts coming out that one cannot deny. 

 

The Cut Backs are glaring especially on the 2 remaining R Class Ships and all of the Vista and Signature Class ships. Money seems to be going into the Pinnacle Class ships with a few exceptions of the oldest being the Koningsdam.

They are cutting corners on maintenance; supplies are not being delivered to ships. We are past the time of stating Supply Chain because this is not happening on any other major lines with the exception of Princess but not to the severity of HAL. Unknown if this is HAL just not ordering supplies or if vendors have cut them off for nonpayment.

Shortage of Crew is a major problem that does not seem to be a problem or at least near as severe on other lines, my guess is many crew have gone on to other cruise lines and or got out so not to have to work under the conditions they are now subject to. We have seen where other cruise lines are offering jobs at enticing bonus to get crew and many are jumping ship.

 

All of the above leads to low moral of crew, because passengers are not happy so they complain, in turn passengers complain so much that HAL has to give extra ship board credit or refund some services, but in turn the past guest most likely will not return. HAL has already started giving away lots of sailings dates that are post final payment that are not selling well as there are promotions for Mariners. 

An Interesting tidbit, comparing many Europe Cruises and even a few Alaska sailings to Princess most of the Princess categories are Wait Listed/Sold Out, those available are quite costly compared to comparable Holland America itinerary.

 

At this point HAL needs to make some major decisions. Start to fix the problems and put money into this, possibly with the help of CCL Corp. Happy Cruisers mean returning passengers which help to equal Happy Crew. Turn around would be they would not have to give away everything including dropping cruise fares, giving away Ship Board Credit to make passengers happy. This investment may take some time to reap rewards but may make it to not sink the ship. Or continue in the downward spiral of lack of provision from vendors, maintenance issues and give away free cabins to fill the ships. They have already dropped to a low in Land Side Customer Service with outsourcing that and reports continue to come in with continued reports of constant long lines at Customer Service Desk on board.. I have seen this since the restart yet did not see this on other cruise lines.  

 

From the restart they went into the mode of huge cutbacks which is very evident. Mostly noted is Entertainment and Dining. I would say at almost two years since restart they have got to see this is not working and need to make some changes. Or is it CCL Corp Plans to Sell off Holland America and at this point has no plan to invest more money to HAL.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I have 3 HAL cruises currently booked and have no plans to cancel, my September is already paid in full and December more than half paid off. But many of the things being spoke of I actually witnessed last July on the Rotterdam the Flag ship. I truly want to see a turn around for HAL but know I must cruise with lower expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with everything you have said and as 4 Star Mariners we refuse to sail with HAL until there are changes for the better.

[DCThunder]

40 minutes ago, MISTER 67 said:

I agree with everything you have said and as 4 Star Mariners we refuse to sail with HAL until there are changes for the better.

Just curious how you'd know that things were better if you don't sail with them?  Simply by relying on totally "unbiased" CC reviews, both good and bad?

[MISTER 67]

8 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

Just curious how you'd know that things were better if you don't sail with them?  Simply by relying on totally "unbiased" CC reviews, both good and bad?

We will have to go by word of mouth. If there is an overwhelming change in reviews where people are raving about HAL then we will give them another shot. We do love HAL ships especially the Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam.

[highland cruiser]

On 5/13/2023 at 5:28 AM, FlaMariner said:

 

We were on the Oosterdam in March/April 2023 (South America 19 days) and loved the ship.  Awesome service, great food, friendly staff, lots of activities.....had no real issues other than the disappointment of having to dis-embark.  Oh, they did have a horseradish shortage on prime rib night...LOL.  Whatever.

 

We enjoyed the "elegant old lady" as the Captain referred to her so much that we booked her for the Mediterranean and a TA next year.

 

Many times when I am on cruise critic I think I cruise in an alternate universe...which may be true......We continue to enjoy HAL (got our 4 stars) and think cruising is better now than ever.

 

Enjoy the journey.......and the Oosterdam....or whatever 'dam ship.

We were also on the Oosterdam this March from Santiago to FFL.  Cruise was exceptional.  Crew was wonderful, great service everywhere.  Loved the Billboard on board. It was packed every night as was Rolling stones.  Commentary going thru the canal was very informative.   Yes, no horseradish one night and a few of our wines/scotch had run out but we were offered a higher quality of each which was more than adequate.  Only had one plumbing issue.  It was the entire hall.  Quickly resolved and the letter from the captain reinforced to  only put toilet paper down the toilets.  LOL!  At the meet and greet for our cruise critic group the captain, assistant hotel manager and a few other officers attended.  We were pleasantly amazed at that.  We are looking forward to the Oosterdam again in October from Athens back to FLL.   We are so blessed to just be still able to cruise and go into a cruise just being happy to not have to make our bed, cook our meals, experience different ports and have time to read, relax, and do as much or as little as possible.  But I appreciate everyone's concerns and can certainly understand how the issues stated can be a problem.  But that's what I like about cc.  We can discuss, share opinions, learn from each other and agree to disagree.  

[cgolf1]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

As cruise lines have grown I believe it is impossible to compare cruise line to cruise line. 

 

The only way to get a real comparison is to compare cruise ship to cruise ship since each line has vastly different ships. Example, you can probably compare the Rhapsody of the Seas to the Volendam since both are older/similar size. You can probably compare Pinnacle to something mid-size on RCL. But nothing in the HAL fleet can be compared to Oasis class. The products offered within each cruise line are very different as are the amenities/activities offered on each ship. 

 

Actually its not a comparison I expect you to agree with or really care about. Our number 1 cruise line to book is Celebrity , then HAL or RCCL. HAL seems to have more interesting itineraries than the others so we may book HAL over Celebrity. 

 

That is my personal lineup of cruise lines we would choose and where they rate for us, everyone's rating/comparison scale is different. My wife would never step foot on an oasis class, I have tried lol.

[cgolf1]

10 minutes ago, MISTER 67 said:

We will have to go by word of mouth. If there is an overwhelming change in reviews where people are raving about HAL then we will give them another shot. We do love HAL ships especially the Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam.

 

Where are you going to sail, Celebrity, Disney, and many others are cutting back too? As a first timer I was pretty impressed with HAL. I guess it depends on what you ultimately sail for too.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, cgolf1 said:

 

Actually its not a comparison I expect you to agree with or really care about. Our number 1 cruise line to book is Celebrity , then HAL or RCCL. HAL seems to have more interesting itineraries than the others so we may book HAL over Celebrity. 

 

That is my personal lineup of cruise lines we would choose and where they rate for us, everyone's rating/comparison scale is different. My wife would never step foot on an oasis class, I have tried lol.

 

I was just making the point that people often (not necessarily you in particular) like to compare cruise lines. That worked in the 80's when most lines had similar fleets, but comparing cruise lines is not as relevant as comparing cruise ships today. Especially when making a decision as to where to spend your $$$. No offense intended. 

 

PS: Celebrity is my 'go-to' also and you really should drag her onboard an Oasis at some point. The entertainment choices alone are so unique it's worth even a 'one and done'. 

[MISTER 67]

Just now, cgolf1 said:

 

Where are you going to sail, Celebrity, Disney, and many others are cutting back too? As a first timer I was pretty impressed with HAL. I guess it depends on what you ultimately sail for too.

We sailed 3 times with Celebrity last year and once this year with one more booked for July, every cruise was great with very good food, entertainment and service. We noticed no cutbacks from our previous cruises with Celebrity before the pandemic. We also have a cruise booked with Princess in November, we had 2 very good cruises with them right after the startup in the fall of 2021. 

[cgolf1]

8 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I was just making the point that people often (not necessarily you in particular) like to compare cruise lines. That worked in the 80's when most lines had similar fleets, but comparing cruise lines is not as relevant as comparing cruise ships today. Especially when making a decision as to where to spend your $$$. No offense intended. 

 

PS: Celebrity is my 'go-to' also and you really should drag her onboard an Oasis at some point. The entertainment choices alone are so unique it's worth even a 'one and done'. 

 

No worries and agree it is always a personal choice. We are relatively new to Celebrity as well. Once on the Edge pre pandemic, Connie with like 600 guests post startup, and a full Edge this year. It is neat jumping into HAL now and thinking hey this is pretty nice. We also love the smaller ships too with a proper promenade so HAL wins there big time for us:) We could never do Disney again due to cost and cutbacks in 2016, no value for us, can't imagine now lol. So for Disney we are like the long time HAL cruisers that are saying its too many cuts.

[SJSULIBRARIAN]

Back to post #1 Lisa's comment about HAL being at the point of Sinking or Cruising, I would agree. IMO until HAL reaches the point of making a profit, experiences on HAL ships will be mixed - good, bad, or ugly.

 

One recent world Cruise blogger mentioned that over 500 of the passengers were sailing on future cruise credits from the aborted 2020 World Cruise. I think the Zuiderdam was sailing at around 1400 passengers, below capacity. It would seem impossible for that cruise to break even much less make a profit. 

 

As long as FCCs are being used and/or rates are low, how can profits be made?

[richwmn]

7 minutes ago, SJSULIBRARIAN said:

Back to post #1 Lisa's comment about HAL being at the point of Sinking or Cruising, I would agree. IMO until HAL reaches the point of making a profit, experiences on HAL ships will be mixed - good, bad, or ugly.

 

One recent world Cruise blogger mentioned that over 500 of the passengers were sailing on future cruise credits from the aborted 2020 World Cruise. I think the Zuiderdam was sailing at around 1400 passengers, below capacity. It would seem impossible for that cruise to break even much less make a profit. 

 

As long as FCCs are being used and/or rates are low, how can profits be made?

I believe that the number from the aborted 2020 World Cruise was a bit under 500, but close enough. Also, many other passengers were using FCC from other Covid canceled cruises. In addition, the guests from the 2020 had the option of taking the 2024 WC so that one will have quite a few taking advantage.

 

However, most (if not all) of the Covid related FCC expired at the end of 2022 so that should not have too much of an impact going forward.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by richwmn

[lissie]

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

When I read the news about Bar Harbor I guess there wasn't an implementation date attached, so I thought it would start this season.

 

Perhaps your cruise is not the one I original compared with then, because I do remember thinking that only one stop in Greenland would be a bit risky....

 

Anyway, enjoy -- I'll be cruising in the same time frame so hoping for the best weather for both of the cruises.

I think that was one on Zuiderdam? which was one way from Europe to Boston via Greenland and Iceland - yes far fewer interesting ports and too much time spent in places we know very well like Ireland and the potential rough sea across the north Atlantic 

 

Yes very much hoping for good weather! 

[HappyInVan]

12 hours ago, cgolf1 said:

Do you see HAL as a step above or below RCCL? 

 

 

Traditionally, RCL and HAL serve different demographics. Families and young adults are RCL's main customers. HAL served an older age group; affluent and professional by occupation. Each demographic has different expectations and are willing to pay different prices.

 

IMHO. It is possible to compare food and entertainment directly between different cruise brands. Everyone will have their favourite food, restaurant and dining hours. Ditto for the entertainment.

 

That said, there should be a discernible difference in the total experience. Here's a guide. Should regular customers defect to cheaper brands, it means that HAL has become too expensive. Should regular customers defect for more expensive brands, it means that quality is deteriorating.

 

Princess is currently promoting 60 cruises at only $60/day. Wow, HAL can't compete with that. So, what now HAL??? 😵

 

 

[cgolf1]

8 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Traditionally, RCL and HAL serve different demographics. Families and young adults are RCL's main customers. HAL served an older age group; affluent and professional by occupation. Each demographic has different expectations and are willing to pay different prices.

 

IMHO. It is possible to compare food and entertainment directly between different cruise brands. Everyone will have their favourite food, restaurant and dining hours. Ditto for the entertainment.

 

That said, there should be a discernible difference in the total experience. Here's a guide. Should regular customers defect to cheaper brands, it means that HAL has become too expensive. Should regular customers defect for more expensive brands, it means that quality is deteriorating.

 

Princess is currently promoting 60 cruises at only $60/day. Wow, HAL can't compete with that. So, what now HAL??? 😵

 

 

 

Interestingly I have found HAL, Celebrity, and RCCL to be similar in price point, but we do sail inside rooms by choice because we like them and didn't like the suite life experience. We are mid to late 40s, but could see our selves sailing on any of the 3 lines for the next how many ever years we have left. We adjust to what is offered onboard and make use of the stuff we enjoy. Our days of being loyal to one line are over. As we branch out we find things we like on each line we sail and that is likely why we have an interesting choice of cruise line options:).

 

We might be an outlier in that we just like to cruise certain times of the year and sea days can be our favorite days. One big thing going for us on RCCL is mini golf. I never understood why Celebrity and not sure about HAL don't put a classy mini golf course in. Many people in the demographic that they attract golf, so I would think it would go over well like pickleball.

 

For the way we like to cruise and the Thrifty part of my trip report it would take a lot to bump us to the premium brands, but one can never predict the future. I would love to know what people thought on our Canada New England cruise where we had kids jumping in the pool and splashing, would have caused lots of comments on Celebrity.

 

One note about this HAL board and our small sample size of 1 cruise on HAL. We have noticed a lot of entitlement on Celebrity and the CC board is pretty negative. We didn't see that onboard HAL, everyone seemed nice and it was a different vibe. Also this CC board seems much more approachable and tame as well. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by cgolf1

[albingirl]

20 hours ago, MISTER 67 said:

We will have to go by word of mouth. If there is an overwhelming change in reviews where people are raving about HAL then we will give them another shot. We do love HAL ships especially the Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam.

Using rave reviews to make decisions is not particularly analytical.  People who write reviews on cruise critic are a small subset of the overall number of people who cruise on HAL. If you don't cruise with HAL, then you are in no position to make comparisons.

[Roz]

20 hours ago, MISTER 67 said:

We will have to go by word of mouth. If there is an overwhelming change in reviews where people are raving about HAL then we will give them another shot. We do love HAL ships especially the Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam.

 

If I relied on CC reviews,  I would have never sailed around South America on the Oosterdam.