Botany Bay Cruise Terminal canned.

[By The Bay]

The current issue of Cruise Passenger has an interesting suggestion, Port Kembla.

 

“Located 73km from the Sydney CBD, 60km from Sydney Airport and 50km from the Badgerys Creek Airport, we have the location to service the cruise industry. We have excellent road and rail connectivity already which will improve over the coming years and we have a deep water port with available space for major expansion plans."

[arxcards]

12 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

The current issue of Cruise Passenger has an interesting suggestion, Port Kembla.

 

“Located 73km from the Sydney CBD, 60km from Sydney Airport and 50km from the Badgerys Creek Airport, we have the location to service the cruise industry. We have excellent road and rail connectivity already which will improve over the coming years and we have a deep water port with available space for major expansion plans."

Newcastle is also a deep water port, with a dedicated wharf, a cruise terminal approved, and several ship visits each year. Williamtown airport already exists 25km away, and the rail terminates for a shuttle bus to run the last 1.5kms to the terminal. A light rail extension could be added to the terminal if ever this was to go ahead again. P&O has successfully operated two short seasons from Newcastle, which were reasonably popular considering Pacific Sun was on her last legs.

 

Despite all that, NSW govt has withdrawn all support for a cruise terminal in Newcastle, and has repurposed funds that were promised as part of the privatisation of the port. The negative for Newcastle is that it is 2hrs from one of the best cruise ports in the world.

 

There are many that see White Bay as inconvenient, so even Port Botany was being seen as 2nd prize. Kembla and Newcastle can exist as ports in their own right, but not as surrogates for Sydney. As convenient to Sydney as Port Kembla may be, the main attraction of cruising into Sydney is the harbour itself, and that can't be replicated. As a 1st step, Port Kembla needs to expand their day visits like Eden & Newcastle do already. Radiance called there a few years ago, so why have so few visits been scheduled since?

 

And as for Turnbull's comments about Garden Island, there is no dishonesty in his comments. It is the contrary argument, and everything is being filtered through greener glasses these days.

[geoff2802]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:16 PM, arxcards said:

Despite all that, NSW govt has withdrawn all support for a cruise terminal in Newcastle, and has repurposed funds that were promised as part of the privatisation of the port. The negative for Newcastle is that it is 2hrs from one of the best cruise ports in the world.

 

Looks like the previous NSW govt put all their eggs in the Yarra Bay basket and killed off Newcastle because it would be competition.  

A consequence I haven’t seen discussed…. Will we see higher fares for cruises from Sydney and higher OPT port charges justified by the capacity constraint?  I believe so.   

[arxcards]

3 minutes ago, geoff2802 said:

Looks like the previous NSW govt put all their eggs in the Yarra Bay basket and killed off Newcastle because it would be competition.  

A consequence I haven’t seen discussed…. Will we see higher fares for cruises from Sydney and higher OPT port charges justified by the capacity constraint?  I believe so.   

The charges are mostly a per-head passenger tax, which is the same charge for White Bay as it is for OPT. It could go up, but not just an OPT thing the way it is structured. This is where we are being robbed, as this tax was supposed to help fund a 2nd large terminal. For NSW to take the money into general revenue yet turn their backs on a viable option is dishonest. Not the first time NSW has killed-off competition between ports to sweeten a privatisation deal.

 

Construction is tough in NSW at present. Like lots of industries post-covid, they are struggling to get labour & materials at an economical price, so I believe the NSW government is just prioritising their infrastructure projects. It could be that Yarra Bay, or other alternates have just been switched off for a few years. Till then at least, it will definitely be a squeeze.

[CroNich]

The only way Newcastle/Port Kembla would work as a primary port for NSW is if they provided fast rail links (I know this is planned for Newcastle at some point not sure about Port Kembla), that could get passengers from the airport/city to the port in an hour. I don't see them being feasible otherwise.

[NSWP]

I think the residents of Wollongong and Port Kembla would prefer a cruise ship terminal rather than a nuclear powered submarine base. Big dramas down there if Federal Govt pursues the  sub base  at Port Kembla.

 

Having worked down there I can tell you the Illawarra is controlled by the trade unions. They will fight the Govt re the Subs.

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by NSWP

[reeves35]

Any suggestion of Newcastle or Wollongong ignores the simple fact that the cruise lines want to sail into one of the most dramatically beautiful harbours in the world; it is a selling point.  Along with New York, San Francisco and Hong Kong, it is hard to think of a harbour that cruise lines regularly go to that is so much of a bucket-list item. 

 

They may hate the OPT and White Bay but none of them will be putting up their hand to be the first to dock at some other port they see as a poor-cousin outpost.

[arxcards]

2 hours ago, reeves35 said:

Any suggestion of Newcastle or Wollongong ignores the simple fact that the cruise lines want to sail into one of the most dramatically beautiful harbours in the world; it is a selling point.  Along with New York, San Francisco and Hong Kong, it is hard to think of a harbour that cruise lines regularly go to that is so much of a bucket-list item. 

 

They may hate the OPT and White Bay but none of them will be putting up their hand to be the first to dock at some other port they see as a poor-cousin outpost.

Agreed. Using Kembla or Newcastle as a Sydney substitute is akin to the cruise lines that list Canberra as the port of call when they call at Batemans Bay. As much as I love cruising in and out of Newcastle, it isn't Sydney.

 

Way too late now, but some foresight in the 80's might have had an East Circular Quay terminal instead of selling-out for the toaster. It could have been developed in a similar way to Brisbane's Portside, still including prime units, restaurants, exxy tourist traps etc.

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, arxcards said:

Agreed. Using Kembla or Newcastle as a Sydney substitute is akin to the cruise lines that list Canberra as the port of call when they call at Batemans Bay. As much as I love cruising in and out of Newcastle, it isn't Sydney.

 

Way too late now, but some foresight in the 80's might have had an East Circular Quay terminal instead of selling-out for the toaster. It could have been developed in a similar way to Brisbane's Portside, still including prime units, restaurants, exxy tourist traps etc.

There isn't enough land behind East Circular Quay to do what they did at Portside. Yes, apartment owners might be happy to put up with a cruise ship parked off their balconies but they couldn't have restaurants like they are now as the area next to the wharf would need to be blocked off for security reasons. Restaurants would have had to have faced Macquarie St which is rather boring. Portside worked because all the restaurants and shops are set in a big area back from the wharf.

[arxcards]

21 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

There isn't enough land behind East Circular Quay to do what they did at Portside. Yes, apartment owners might be happy to put up with a cruise ship parked off their balconies but they couldn't have restaurants like they are now as the area next to the wharf would need to be blocked off for security reasons. Restaurants would have had to have faced Macquarie St which is rather boring. Portside worked because all the restaurants and shops are set in a big area back from the wharf.

I would content that Gusto's in Portside is closer to the waters edge than the cafe's under the toaster, and they just had no alfresco dining out front on cruise days. If any of the above had been considered, it could have been designed differently. They would also have been able to steal a few metres of water for the wharf.

 

It couldn't be a goer for a turnaround ship anyway, as you wouldn't be able to get a semi down to the bottom of Macquarie St.

Edited June 8, 2023 by arxcards

[OzKiwiJJ]

16 minutes ago, arxcards said:

I would content that Gusto's in Portside is closer to the waters edge than the cafe's under the toaster, and they just had no alfresco dining out front on cruise days. If any of the above had been considered, it could have been designed differently. They would also have been able to steal a few metres of water for the wharf.

 

It couldn't be a goer for a turnaround ship anyway, as you wouldn't be able to get a semi down to the bottom of Macquarie St.

Nope - Gusto's looks like it is slightly further back and it's only one restaurant. On East Circular Quay there are two restaurants right on the water's edge plus the Opera Bar, and three or four under the toaster.

 

From.a cruiser's perspective it would have been nice but I think I prefer it as it is now. It's such a pleasant place for a meal on a fine day. 

[MicCanberra]

Why not build a new dock straight out from Milton's point towards Kiribilli point.?

[arxcards]

8 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Nope - Gusto's looks like it is slightly further back and it's only one restaurant. On East Circular Quay there are two restaurants right on the water's edge plus the Opera Bar, and three or four under the toaster.

 

From.a cruiser's perspective it would have been nice but I think I prefer it as it is now. It's such a pleasant place for a meal on a fine day. 

Gusto's is one of 3 restaurants that face the wharf at ground level, although Belvederes didn't reopen after the covid lockdowns. They also have another facing the wharf on the 1st floor.

 

I like it as it was at Circular Quay too. Last couple of times there though, lots of the ground floor shops were empty and the cinema hasn't been open since covid. I like the toaster, and when I have the budget for it, like to do a pre-cruise night in Quay Grand. My point being that when they last developed East Circular Quay, everyone hated the idea so much that they may as well have built a cruise terminal, and there would have still been plenty of restaurant space and a much less obtrusive design than the toaster is today. Over 25 years, we have just come to accept it the way it is now, but it hasn't always been like that.

[Chiliburn]

I think the container terminal will be the likely option.

Move some of the containers to Newcastle and Kembla.

Get some of those trucks off Sydney roads.

[NSWP]

31 minutes ago, Chiliburn said:

I think the container terminal will be the likely option.

Move some of the containers to Newcastle and Kembla.

Get some of those trucks off Sydney roads.

Dont get Rod upset again, lol.

 

[Chiliburn]

24 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Dont get Rod upset again, lol.

 

He shouldn’t get upset ,because it’s an existing operation.

He should be happy about not having those container trucks running that heap of junk of the road.

[MMDown Under]

1 hour ago, arxcards said:

Gusto's is one of 3 restaurants that face the wharf at ground level, although Belvederes didn't reopen after the covid lockdowns. They also have another facing the wharf on the 1st floor.

 

I like it as it was at Circular Quay too. Last couple of times there though, lots of the ground floor shops were empty and the cinema hasn't been open since covid. I like the toaster, and when I have the budget for it, like to do a pre-cruise night in Quay Grand. My point being that when they last developed East Circular Quay, everyone hated the idea so much that they may as well have built a cruise terminal, and there would have still been plenty of restaurant space and a much less obtrusive design than the toaster is today. Over 25 years, we have just come to accept it the way it is now, but it hasn't always been like that.

Thanks for the great photo of Circular Quay 1892.  I lucked in as this is the first time I've looked at this thread.

[arxcards]

18 minutes ago, MMDown Under said:

Thanks for the great photo of Circular Quay 1892.  I lucked in as this is the first time I've looked at this thread.

Back from the days when @NSWP was on the beat 😜

[OzKiwiJJ]

2 hours ago, arxcards said:

Gusto's is one of 3 restaurants that face the wharf at ground level, although Belvederes didn't reopen after the covid lockdowns. They also have another facing the wharf on the 1st floor.

 

I like it as it was at Circular Quay too. Last couple of times there though, lots of the ground floor shops were empty and the cinema hasn't been open since covid. I like the toaster, and when I have the budget for it, like to do a pre-cruise night in Quay Grand. My point being that when they last developed East Circular Quay, everyone hated the idea so much that they may as well have built a cruise terminal, and there would have still been plenty of restaurant space and a much less obtrusive design than the toaster is today. Over 25 years, we have just come to accept it the way it is now, but it hasn't always been like that.

I remember having lunch at Gusto's once, on a cruise ship day, and the restaurant didn't face out over the wharf. I'm fairly certain the side facing the wharf was a solid wall.

 

If they'd put a cruise terminal between Macquarie St and the water's edge there wouldn't have been any room for restaurants. It's about the same width as the OPT side between the access road past the terminal building and the water's edge. 

 

I think the toaster was build about 25 years ago, around the same time as Sun Princess was built. Would anyone back then have imagined that cruise ships would become as large as they are now? 

[NSWP]

2 hours ago, arxcards said:

Back from the days when @NSWP was on the beat 😜

Yep, takes me back to ye olde days. Chasing the rogues around the Rocks and up and down ye olde Argyle Cut.  No City Extra around back then for a feed and drink.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by NSWP

[arxcards]

1 hour ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I remember having lunch at Gusto's once, on a cruise ship day, and the restaurant didn't face out over the wharf. I'm fairly certain the side facing the wharf was a solid wall.

 

If they'd put a cruise terminal between Macquarie St and the water's edge there wouldn't have been any room for restaurants. It's about the same width as the OPT side between the access road past the terminal building and the water's edge. 

 

I think the toaster was build about 25 years ago, around the same time as Sun Princess was built. Would anyone back then have imagined that cruise ships would become as large as they are now? 

On turnaround days, not much happened outside the front, but they have log had an entrance and large windows along that wall. There is a corridor with closing glass panels in front of that, which allows access to Byblos next door - which only faces the front. Belvedere's had alfresco out the front on non-cruise days when they were around.

 

For a brief time after the Sun Princess was built, she was the largest cruise ship in the world, so every ship would fit under the bridge in 1995. True, foresight only goes so far, and I don't think many futurists would have predicted the size and quantity of ships around today.

[MMDown Under]

38 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Yep, takes me back to ye olde days. Chasing the rogues around the Rocks and up and down ye olde Argyle Cut.  No City Extra around back then for a feed and drink.

 

 

You must have known inner Sydney well back in the day.

[Chiliburn]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:20 AM, NSWP said:

Yep, takes me back to ye olde days. Chasing the rogues around the Rocks and up and down ye olde Argyle Cut.  No City Extra around back then for a feed and drink.

 

 

It looks like the eastern side of Garden Island is the favourite.

 

Uncle Les is that a truncheon or something you show the cougars?

[NSWP]

57 minutes ago, Chiliburn said:

It looks like the eastern side of Garden Island is the favourite.

 

Uncle Les is that a truncheon or something you show the cougars?

 

57 minutes ago, Chiliburn said:

It looks like the eastern side of Garden Island is the favourite.

 

Uncle Les is that a truncheon or something you show the cougars?

Now young fella, do not get too personal  I still have friends. Out there👮‍♂️

[arxcards]

1 hour ago, Chiliburn said:

It looks like the eastern side of Garden Island is the favourite.

 

Uncle Les is that a truncheon or something you show the cougars?

Naaah .... a cruise terminal with a public ferry wharf a short walk away, they would never allow it. 😂 Perhaps one of the museum buildings would double as an embark hall.