Staff wages are they based on the ship occupancy

[Elaine5715]

11 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I wonder why they did a service charge as opposed to just price increases.  Either way, they must not have kept the employees whole, otherwise they would not have quit over the change.   

Probably both tax consideration and tracking.  A service charge amount is easy to record, food costs not so much.  Wait staff saw a significant decrease in wages and more importantly, this method "evened" the field.  So, wait staff got paid the same for dealing with high maintenance guests and with easy guests.  People who haven't worked in the service industry don't get people who understand they are high maintenance and tip accordingly are understood by wait staff.  The wait staff know PITAs will make it worth their while in the end.  The  wait staff exited to go to other high end restaurants.  

[Toofarfromthesea]

9 hours ago, Kristelle said:

 

 

Which "people"??

 

 

 

The ones who say "I am from XXXXXXXXX and I don't tip, who have been Legion here.  If that doesn't include you then don't worry about it.

[Elaine5715]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

The ones who say "I am from XXXXXXXXX and I don't tip, who have been Legion here.  If that doesn't include you then don't worry about it.

When F1 hit Las Vegas, the taxi companies were granted a $15 surcharge for rides to/from the airport due to influx of foreign visitors with that mindset.   

[Kristelle]

3 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

The ones who say "I am from XXXXXXXXX and I don't tip, who have been Legion here.  If that doesn't include you then don't worry about it.

 

Well it isnt me - since   I already said I researched what to do in Hawaii and have not been nor at this stage intend to go, to mainland USA

 

That hasnt been my experience of forums - at least not in full context - people might start sentences with that -and then "so I'm not sure what to do in X place". I've done that.

Rather than I refuse to tip in places where tipping is expected - obviously quite different.

 

Perhaps you are seeing differently - perhaps confirmation bias is at play.

 

At any rate my point remains - 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

I live in Australia so my posts are going to be about about protecting our non tipping culture - if you live in US and want to post about protecting your tipping culture, by all means do so.

One doesn't rule out the other.

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, Kristelle said:

 

Well it isnt me - since   I already said I researched what to do in Hawaii and have not been nor at this stage intend to go, to mainland USA

 

That hasnt been my experience of forums - at least not in full context - people might start sentences with that -and then "so I'm not sure what to do in X place". I've done that.

Rather than I refuse to tip in places where tipping is expected - obviously quite different.

 

Perhaps you are seeing differently - perhaps confirmation bias is at play.

 

 

 

I'll just note that I never said you were one, and also note that I probably have seen more in the 5-1/2 years I've been here than you may have seen in your 7 months.

 

As to confirmation bias, that runs both ways.

[MacMadame]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:00 AM, Philob said:

California's minimum wage is $15.50 an hour including tipped workers. San Francisco is $18+ an hour including tipped workers. There's a ballot measure in 2024 to push the state minimum to $18.80. Meanwhile legislation signed by the Governor put the minimum wage for fast food workers to $20 an hour by 2028.  

And they get tips on top of that! Which is as it should be, IMO. It's very expensive to live here and $15.50/hr doesn't come close to cutting it.

 

On 1/5/2024 at 3:51 PM, Hlitner said:

When you walk into the seating area you will be helped (and given a program) and many would also tip this person a few dollars.

I have lived in the US for 66 years and have been to many Broadway plays and plays all over the country and I have never seen anyone tip the usher for handing them a program.

 

12 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

People who haven't worked in the service industry don't get people who understand they are high maintenance and tip accordingly are understood by wait staff.  The wait staff know PITAs will make it worth their while in the end.  

I know many wait staff who have told me stories that directly contradict this. Many times the PITA customers are also the worst tippers. Also, the whole tipping a percentage of the bill is whack because different orders take different amounts of effort on the part of the waitstaff and that effort does not correspond to the price of the item.

[Kristelle]

2 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

I'll just note that I never said you were one, and also note that I probably have seen more in the 5-1/2 years I've been here than you may have seen in your 7 months.

 

As to confirmation bias, that runs both ways.

 

 

Yes of course confirmation bias applies to all of us. I never suggested or implied that doesn't include myself.

 

Yes you have been on CC longer than me - however I said 'on travel forums', meaning not just here.

I have spent a lot longer on TA than I have here. 

 

[Elaine5715]

9 hours ago, MacMadame said:

And they get tips on top of that! Which is as it should be, IMO. It's very expensive to live here and $15.50/hr doesn't come close to cutting it.

 

I have lived in the US for 66 years and have been to many Broadway plays and plays all over the country and I have never seen anyone tip the usher for handing them a program.

 

I know many wait staff who have told me stories that directly contradict this. Many times the PITA customers are also the worst tippers. Also, the whole tipping a percentage of the bill is whack because different orders take different amounts of effort on the part of the waitstaff and that effort does not correspond to the price of the item.

Regular PITA customers tip heavy or they are discouraged from returning to high end restaurants.  Most of the time, the big tip comes from the embarrassed  partner especially on cruise ships. Service level is not the same at the local Eats and at Smith & Wollensky.  

[ldubs]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:30 AM, ontheweb said:

How would you figure the price if the buyer is exempt from the sales tax if your price includes tax? I know my DW is a retired elementary art teacher, and she once made a request for something (I forget exactly what) from the school's PTA. It was granted to her, and she got the price and a check for the amount, but when she went to Staples, they give her a bill for more because they added sales tax. That was taken off when she pointed out the sale was to a tax exempt organization. How would you do that if you did not start with a price before tax?

 

Good question. Seems Staples has the answer.  Back out the sales tax for tax exempt transactions.  There are probably many similar issues that would have to be addressed.   For example, unless things have changed, in California you pay tax according to where you live as opposed to the location of the dealer.  Showing tax on the car sticker would be problematic.  

[ldubs]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:51 AM, Hlitner said:

 it is a mindset that truly varies around the world.  So, for example, in Japan (and a few other oriental countries) tipping is considered rude by many folks, patronizing by most, and is not normally done (except by some westerners who insist on pushing their culture onto others). 

 

 

I agree but in no means is pushing one's own culture limited to Westerners.   

[ldubs]

23 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Probably both tax consideration and tracking.  A service charge amount is easy to record, food costs not so much.  Wait staff saw a significant decrease in wages and more importantly, this method "evened" the field.  So, wait staff got paid the same for dealing with high maintenance guests and with easy guests.  People who haven't worked in the service industry don't get people who understand they are high maintenance and tip accordingly are understood by wait staff.  The wait staff know PITAs will make it worth their while in the end.  The  wait staff exited to go to other high end restaurants.  

 

I might disagree with you on tracking food costs.  That is probably one of the most known expenses in the business.  

 

You point out what is to me the most significant issue of moving away from tipping in restaurants.  That being keeping the previously tipped employees whole.  

 

My family members with significant restaurant experience, management, and service, talk a lot about those high maintenance people you mention. Some of the stories were crazy!  Lol.  

[MacMadame]

2 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Regular PITA customers tip heavy or they are discouraged from returning to high end restaurants.  Most of the time, the big tip comes from the embarrassed  partner especially on cruise ships. Service level is not the same at the local Eats and at Smith & Wollensky.  

Not everyone works in a high-end restaurant. Plus, we are talking about cruise ships and the people who work there.

 

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Good question. Seems Staples has the answer.  Back out the sales tax for tax exempt transactions.  There are probably many similar issues that would have to be addressed.   For example, unless things have changed, in California you pay tax according to where you live as opposed to the location of the dealer.  Showing tax on the car sticker would be problematic.  

I think it's a red herring. We're talking about cruise ships and they know what is and isn't taxable and it has nothing to do with where people live.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Good question. Seems Staples has the answer.  Back out the sales tax for tax exempt transactions.  There are probably many similar issues that would have to be addressed.   For example, unless things have changed, in California you pay tax according to where you live as opposed to the location of the dealer.  Showing tax on the car sticker would be problematic.  

But they did not have to back out of the sales tax because they already had the price and then sales tax was added.

[ldubs]

5 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

Not everyone works in a high-end restaurant. Plus, we are talking about cruise ships and the people who work there.

 

I think it's a red herring. We're talking about cruise ships and they know what is and isn't taxable and it has nothing to do with where people live.

 

We were not talking about cruise ships in this exchange.

[ldubs]

7 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But they did not have to back out of the sales tax because they already had the price and then sales tax was added.

 

Yes, I understand.  I was responding to your question about how tax exempt purchases would be handled.   We all realize the incredibly vast majority of taxable purchases do not fall in that category.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Good question. Seems Staples has the answer.  Back out the sales tax for tax exempt transactions.  There are probably many similar issues that would have to be addressed.   For example, unless things have changed, in California you pay tax according to where you live as opposed to the location of the dealer.  Showing tax on the car sticker would be problematic.  

I just don't have faith that the sales clerk would be able to know how to do that if the sales tax was included instead of added on. I guess it depends on their training.

[MacMadame]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I just don't have faith that the sales clerk would be able to know how to do that if the sales tax was included instead of added on. I guess it depends on their training.

The computer (register) should do most of the work. When I had my business, the people taking sales didn't have to worry about sales tax at all. But in this case, they would just push a button if you showed them you were a tax-exempt business and the computer would back out the tax.

[ontheweb]

3 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

The computer (register) should do most of the work. When I had my business, the people taking sales didn't have to worry about sales tax at all. But in this case, they would just push a button if you showed them you were a tax-exempt business and the computer would back out the tax.

But that of course was when sales tax was added (as it is now), not the hypothesis given that the price should show the total price including sales tax.

[ldubs]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But that of course was when sales tax was added (as it is now), not the hypothesis given that the price should show the total price including sales tax.

 

True, but the math is easy and I think it is wrong to think the transaction would be done by using a calculator.    

[MacMadame]

10 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

True, but the math is easy and I think it is wrong to think the transaction would be done by using a calculator.    

Right. 99% of businesses have a Point of Sales system that does it all for you. Even Mom&Pop shops these days use something like Square to make sales (so they can take credit cards).

 

However, our sales tax system is based on adding sales tax afterward and is extremely complex. If we had started 100 years ago with a system where sales tax was included, we probably wouldn't have these issues. 😄 

 

I do think in countries with VAT, they do have a way for a business to fill out a form at year-end to make adjustments as well.

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, MacMadame said:

Right. 99% of businesses have a Point of Sales system that does it all for you. Even Mom&Pop shops these days use something like Square to make sales (so they can take credit cards).

 

However, our sales tax system is based on adding sales tax afterward and is extremely complex. If we had started 100 years ago with a system where sales tax was included, we probably wouldn't have these issues. 😄 

 

I do think in countries with VAT, they do have a way for a business to fill out a form at year-end to make adjustments as well.

 

It is just coding (not meaning to over simplify).   Could be done if we want it to happen.  It is just hard to break the habit I think.   

 

This discussion made me think of those businesses that occasionally offer the "no sales tax" sales.  Cleary, it can be done.  

[MacMadame]

43 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

We were not talking about cruise ships in this exchange.

If you are going to make the argument that servers make more with the current tipping situation, as some were, including the person I was responding to, then using only high-end restaurants -- a very small percentage of all people who get tips as part of their work -- is disingenuous IMO. And not a good argument for why cruise ship workers should also continue to get tips -- which again was the argument being made.

 

As is coming up with an example of how people who are tipped make more money but only using 2 hours and making the non-tipped wage low. I can come up with many examples of how non-tipped people would make more overall. You just have to make sure their salaries are what they should be to make them whole and also include their entire work-week including slow shifts and at least a few people who just stiff them as that absolutely happens.

[ontheweb]

41 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

True, but the math is easy and I think it is wrong to think the transaction would be done by using a calculator.    

I think I have less faith in the math skills of the average sales clerk than you do.

[Toofarfromthesea]

51 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But that of course was when sales tax was added (as it is now), not the hypothesis given that the price should show the total price including sales tax.

 

Isn't including the tax in the price the way VAR works?  I know that when I bought a mid-level cue from France the price I paid turned out to be less than listed because I wasn't subject to VAR so it got backed out.

 

Personally I view including the tax in the price as just another way the government anesthetizes us against seeing the tax, just like tax withholding from our paycheck.

[ldubs]

7 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

If you are going to make the argument that servers make more with the current tipping situation, as some were, including the person I was responding to, then using only high-end restaurants -- a very small percentage of all people who get tips as part of their work -- is disingenuous IMO. And not a good argument for why cruise ship workers should also continue to get tips -- which again was the argument being made.

 

Disingenuous?  Really?    

 

You quoted my post which was not about cruise ships.  So, no it was not the argument I was making.  

 

The vast majority of tipped restaurant workers make more per hour than they would if paid only the minimum hourly wage.  Doesn't matter if we are talking about high end or family chain restaurants. I don't think I have argued one way or another about discontinuing or continuing cruise gratuities.  

 

 

7 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

 

As is coming up with an example of how people who are tipped make more money but only using 2 hours and making the non-tipped wage low. I can come up with many examples of how non-tipped people would make more overall. You just have to make sure their salaries are what they should be to make them whole and also include their entire work-week including slow shifts and at least a few people who just stiff them as that absolutely happens.

 

Geez, Is this not exactly what I have been saying (to the extent I'm probably boring people to tears)?