Staff wages are they based on the ship occupancy

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Therefore, when providing the waiter/waitress a tip, you are really donating money to the business owner, as they deduct the tip from the employee's wage. Wow!

Sounds a lot like cruise ship DSC, doesn't it?

[ldubs]

41 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Therefore, when providing the waiter/waitress a tip, you are really donating money to the business owner, as they deduct the tip from the employee's wage. Wow!

 

No, they cannot deduct or withhold tips from employees.  The system in place in most American States consists of a base hourly that is less than the state's minimum hourly wage.  Tips are counted towards achieving the state's minimum wage (which I believe in NJ is in excess of $14/hour).   If for any reason the base hourly plus tips were less than the minimum, the employer must pay more to insure the minimum hourly is met.   

 

In my state and I believe a few others, at least the minimum hourly must be paid and any tips are on top of that.    Of course, tips are always considered income for tax purposes.  

[Elaine5715]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:17 PM, Harry Lake said:

Some restaurants in some cities have done away with tipping and have added 20% or more service charges.

After the big press release, most returned to the tipping since employees left in droves.  

[Elaine5715]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:42 AM, chengkp75 said:

This fallacious argument is trotted out whenever shipboard salaries come up.  Unless the crew member is living in his/her parent's basement, they are paying rent on an apartment that is empty while they are at sea (unless they cancel their lease and move their stuff to a storage unit, where they are still paying rent).  If the crew member has a family, then they are definitely still paying rent, and buying food for their family.

I would then ask those who trot this out, should I be paid less after I pay off my mortgage?  

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Sounds a lot like cruise ship DSC, doesn't it?

First thing that came to mind when I read it.

[Elaine5715]

On 1/5/2024 at 5:54 PM, Kristelle said:

 

 

I don't think that is crazy, it isnt crazy just because it isnt your norm -  - I wouldnt use the words "Ugly Americans" - but  I would expect people from America to abide by the non tipping culture of non tipping countries they visit - as the mate said, we  we do not want our non tipping culture changed.

That goes both ways.  I read many posts  by Australians in Las Vegas sites that they don't tip when in the US.   

[Heidi13]

35 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

No, they cannot deduct or withhold tips from employees.  The system in place in most American States consists of a base hourly that is less than the state's minimum hourly wage.  Tips are counted towards achieving the state's minimum wage (which I believe in NJ is in excess of $14/hour).   If for any reason the base hourly plus tips were less than the minimum, the employer must pay more to insure the minimum hourly is met.   

 

In my state and I believe a few others, at least the minimum hourly must be paid and any tips are on top of that.    Of course, tips are always considered income for tax purposes.  

 

Regardless of how it works in practice, in that State, by providing a tip, you are saving the business owner money. As the Chief noted, no different than the DSC, utilised by mass market cruise lines focussed on the US market.

 

In BC, we are similar to CA, with the current minimum wage $15.65/hr. It cannot be reduced if the e/e receives tips.

[Kristelle]

26 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

That goes both ways.  I read many posts  by Australians in Las Vegas sites that they don't tip when in the US.   

 

 Of course it does. In fact if you  read back you  will see I already said exactly that in my next post. 

 

 

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Regardless of how it works in practice, in that State, by providing a tip, you are saving the business owner money. As the Chief noted, no different than the DSC, utilised by mass market cruise lines focussed on the US market.

 

In BC, we are similar to CA, with the current minimum wage $15.65/hr. It cannot be reduced if the e/e receives tips.

 

Aw, I see what you mean.  To the extent tips make up the required minimum wage, then yes.  On the other hand, the salary expense has to be covered somehow.  If tipping disappeared, they would likely be replaced with higher menu prices to cover wages.   

 

In either system, if we were to eliminate tips altogether, it is likely menu prices would have to increase much more than the 18% to 20% tip standard to keep the employees whole.   Probably more like 30%, but that is just a WAG on my part.   Still, I'm getting tired enough of tipping to support that kind of change.    

[ldubs]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:32 PM, Hlitner said:

Consider that a couple dining in a decent restaurant can easily run-up a $200 tab, and then they are expected to add $40-$50 to that (plus pay the usual sales taxes we have in much of the USA).  But in our society most folks accept this as fine and do not see any issue.  

 

 

 

Would you prefer to simply pay a $240 - $250 tab (+ tax of course)?   I would.  

 

Why would folks not accept it if it is their cultural norm.  

[ldubs]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:57 PM, frantic36 said:

In America I have to remind myself the price I see on the price tag is not what I pay at the till as they will add on taxes.

 

That shouldn't be the case in restaurants where almost always the bill provided will show the total including tax.  Otherwise, yes it is a pain and I should be used to it.  I wish all price stickers would show the totals before and after tax.  

[ldubs]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:17 PM, Harry Lake said:

Some restaurants in some cities have done away with tipping and have added 20% or more service charges.

 

On 11/22/2023 at 3:36 PM, Harry Lake said:

Oh I didn't elaborate. That 20% isn't going to staff but to "costs" and only some of that is staff.

 

 

If they did away with tipping and increased prices by 20%, they should have used the increase to keep the employees whole.  No wonder staff walked.  

[ldubs]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:40 PM, MWarren3549 said:

LOL  It always amuses me when people apply US norms and labor laws and ADA laws to companies OUT OF THE COUNTRY .... Most staff are paid an X $ amount for their contract.  Or a set X $ amount PER MONTH of their contract ... they are NOT paid an hourly wage for the 14 - 18 hours a day that they work.  

 

FYI - I work very closely with a cruise line employee and am in the middle of processing his Visa docs to submit to homeland security.  

 

I thought the person you are quoting was talking about restaurant pay, not cruise ships.   

  

[Elaine5715]

19 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

 

If they did away with tipping and increased prices by 20%, they should have used the increase to keep the employees whole.  No wonder staff walked.  

Those restaurants increased salaries both front and back of house with the increased prices plus the 20% charge service  and wait staff left.  The antitip crowd applauded the mandatory 20% service fee while jeering the optional gratuities.  Makes no sense.  

[ldubs]

On 11/26/2023 at 3:34 PM, BruceMuzz said:

I have never lived in Australia.

I do spend quite a bit of time there every year when my ship makes a circumnavigation of Australia and New Zealand.

When my crew and I go ashore in Australia, we often visit restaurants and bars. As soon as the locals realize we are not Australian, we find all sorts of “special charges” on our bills: holiday taxes, group service charges, special taxes, etc. These charges are not small change - but rather large amounts.  When we ask about them we are told that this is mandatory. Yet when we ask Aussies about them, they have never heard of such things.

 

Being recognized as an American, I was literally asked for a tip while in Australia (not in a restaurant).  I was happy to support the local custom and say no thanks.  

 

We were in Portugal & Spain last year.   At some sit down restaurants in tourist areas we were advised the "optional service charge" had not been added.   Again, I happily supported the local no tipping culture and declined.   

[Hlitner]

59 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Would you prefer to simply pay a $240 - $250 tab (+ tax of course)?   I would.  

 

Why would folks not accept it if it is their cultural norm.  

Why "+ tax of course."  In parts of the world, such as most of Europe, the price includes tax (VAT) as a matter of course.  The USA thing of adding on sales taxes is the exception rather than the rule.  Folks where you live see to love any tax they can find, but that is not the way of most of the world.  It makes little sense, that a $100 tab for dinner really means $140 when add tip and tax.  Americans have been brain washed to think this is fine, but much of the world is not as easily conned.

 

Hank

[ldubs]

16 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Those restaurants increased salaries both front and back of house with the increased prices plus the 20% charge service  and wait staff left.  The antitip crowd applauded the mandatory 20% service fee while jeering the optional gratuities.  Makes no sense.  

 

I wonder why they did a service charge as opposed to just price increases.  Either way, they must not have kept the employees whole, otherwise they would not have quit over the change.   

[ldubs]

17 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Why "+ tax of course."  In parts of the world, such as most of Europe, the price includes tax (VAT) as a matter of course.  The USA thing of adding on sales taxes is the exception rather than the rule.  Folks where you live see to love any tax they can find, but that is not the way of most of the world.  It makes little sense, that a $100 tab for dinner really means $140 when add tip and tax.  Americans have been brain washed to think this is fine, but much of the world is not as easily conned.

 

Hank

 

I agree with you about price tags including the applicable tax -- with obvious exceptions where it cannot be done.

 

The point of my question was would you prefer to pay a higher price and no tipping.  If it pleases you, let me ask again building in my local sales tax rate in the example.  

 

Referring to your example of a $200 tab + $50 tip + sales tax.   Would you prefer to pay $271 and no tips (tax included)?  Again, I would.  

 

  

Edited January 8 by ldubs

[Toofarfromthesea]

I find it kind of funny how people demand that Americans observe their non-tipping culture when we visit their countries but are so resistant to returning the favor and observing the tipping culture in our country.  They don't want up to tip when in their country, but when they are in America or on an American culture ship it's "we're from XXXXXXXXX, we don't tip."

[Kristelle]

2 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Being recognized as an American, I was literally asked for a tip while in Australia (not in a restaurant).  I was happy to support the local custom and say no thanks.  

 

We were in Portugal & Spain last year.   At some sit down restaurants in tourist areas we were advised the "optional service charge" had not been added.   Again, I happily supported the local no tipping culture and declined.   

 

 

Thank you.

 

I get that places like USA have tipping culture but don't let opportunists recognise your accent and think they can get one from you here.

[Kristelle]

23 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

I find it kind of funny how people demand that Americans observe their non-tipping culture when we visit their countries but are so resistant to returning the favor and observing the tipping culture in our country.  They don't want up to tip when in their country, but when they are in America or on an American culture ship it's "we're from XXXXXXXXX, we don't tip."

 

 

Which "people"??

 

Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right

 

and of course people don't tip when they have made a point of taking all inclusive gratuities pre paid packages t o avoid the hassle of tipping - I do that

 

but anyway that isnt my experience from  travel forums - either here or trip advisor - there are umpteen threads about tipping and what to do in other places started by people from non tipping countries who want to know what to do somewhere else so they can do it.

 

 I remember starting one on TA and getting "oh no not another one" type response

[sparks1093]

It is interesting how in all of these discussions we talk about how this affects the customer and how this affects the business owner, but we rarely discuss how this affects the individual worker (other than maybe to commiserate about the poor workers have to work for tips). I know many people that make a very good living by working for tips and if they have any complaints at all their number one complaint is the lack of full time hours, which is the same complaint most people have who work by the hour. I know one gentleman that works for a resort here in my state and he earns north of $50k per year working for tips as a bellhop. Imagine how much prices would have to go up at that resort to guarantee him that kind of salary? Of course, there are some who would say that no bellhop deserves that kind of income, but that is for another thread.

 

So let's look at two restaurant workers. One works for a straight hourly wage of $15 per hour with no tips and one works for smaller hourly wage of $5.46 and tips. They both work a 4 hour shift. They both serve 4 parties an hour with an average tab of $100 and each leaves an 18% tip.  At the end of the shift the person making a straight hourly wage has earned $60. At the of the shift the other server has earned $280 in tips plus the hourly wage of $21.84 for a total of $301.84. 4 parties an hour is a moderately busy night and a $100 tab is not at all uncommon nowadays, but you can do the math using any numbers you wish to use, the tipped employee makes more at the end of the shift and from the worker's perspective that is all that matters.

[Hlitner]

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I agree with you about price tags including the applicable tax -- with obvious exceptions where it cannot be done.

 

The point of my question was would you prefer to pay a higher price and no tipping.  If it pleases you, let me ask again building in my local sales tax rate in the example.  

 

Referring to your example of a $200 tab + $50 tip + sales tax.   Would you prefer to pay $271 and no tips (tax included)?  Again, I would.  

 

  

I do prefer prices that include tipping/fees.  That is one of the attractions of cruising on lines like Seabourn (our current favorite line) and most of the other so-called luxury lines.  But the issue of "tipping culture" cuts much deeper than all inclusiveness.  it is a mindset that truly varies around the world.  So, for example, in Japan (and a few other oriental countries) tipping is considered rude by many folks, patronizing by most, and is not normally done (except by some westerners who insist on pushing their culture onto others).  The Aussies generally do not tip and many will simply take the position that in Australia they pay a "living wage" and tipping is generally not necessary (or expected).  

 

We have pointed out, in the past, that when Princess Cruise Lines decided to home port their first ship in Sydney (I think it was the old Sun Princess) they quickly realized that the Aussies were not very accepting of the Princess auto-tips scheme.  So Princess had to revamp pricing, down under, and include tips in the cruise fares charged to Aussies.  

 

When tipping, in our own culture, was 5-10% most simply accepted it as the norm.  But now, with some folks unhappy even if you give them 20% (they expect more) it has become ridiculous.  And while giving a "longshoreman" a few dollars to simply move a bag a few feet (to the cages) seems somewhat strange.  But we do it!  My favorite is when vending machines now ask for tips!  Really?

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I agree with you about price tags including the applicable tax -- with obvious exceptions where it cannot be done.

 

The point of my question was would you prefer to pay a higher price and no tipping.  If it pleases you, let me ask again building in my local sales tax rate in the example.  

 

Referring to your example of a $200 tab + $50 tip + sales tax.   Would you prefer to pay $271 and no tips (tax included)?  Again, I would.  

 

  

How would you figure the price if the buyer is exempt from the sales tax if your price includes tax? I know my DW is a retired elementary art teacher, and she once made a request for something (I forget exactly what) from the school's PTA. It was granted to her, and she got the price and a check for the amount, but when she went to Staples, they give her a bill for more because they added sales tax. That was taken off when she pointed out the sale was to a tax exempt organization. How would you do that if you did not start with a price before tax?

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

So let's look at two restaurant workers. One works for a straight hourly wage of $15 per hour with no tips and one works for smaller hourly wage of $5.46 and tips. They both work a 4 hour shift. They both serve 4 parties an hour with an average tab of $100 and each leaves an 18% tip.  At the end of the shift the person making a straight hourly wage has earned $60. At the of the shift the other server has earned $280 in tips plus the hourly wage of $21.84 for a total of $301.84. 4 parties an hour is a moderately busy night and a $100 tab is not at all uncommon nowadays, but you can do the math using any numbers you wish to use, the tipped employee makes more at the end of the shift and from the worker's perspective that is all that matters.

And that is exactly why the famous NY City restaurateur Danny Meyer's experiment a couple of years ago with eliminating tipping at his restaurants was an abysmal failure. Wait staff quit in droves because they made significantly more money in tips than they could ever make getting only salary...even a salary that was well above minimum wage.