Tipping....yes, again

[peoriaguy1958]

Also as a FYI, the dining room staff only income is from gratitudes, Carnival doesn’t pay them any type of base pay, also on Venezia now a was told by a head server that prior cruise just under 50% of passengers removed their gratitudes and their pay was way less. If you figure the hours they work per day if that many passengers are not tipping they making like $3-5 dollars a hour. Never knew only pay they get is from tips.

[jerseygirlinAZ]

This thread makes me wonder how many posters have worked in the service industry.  I'm guessing few, but feel free to flame away as I know you will.

[oakridger]

2 hours ago, peoriaguy1958 said:

 Never knew only pay they get is from tips.

 

This is false! They have contracts that pay a base pay.  There are laws to protect maritime workers! The gratuities are in addition.

[crazyank]

2 hours ago, peoriaguy1958 said:

Also as a FYI, the dining room staff only income is from gratitudes, Carnival doesn’t pay them any type of base pay,

absolutely false

[seaman11]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:55 PM, Rdclfamily said:

I can't wrap my head around tipping (how much) for this cruise.  It's time to make decisions and this particular cruise is nothing like any other cruise.  There are four of us.  Two adults and two teens.   We have mostly dined in a restaurant like Bonsai sushi where we paid for our meal and tipped accordingly.  We have paid tips on countless drinks.  We paid gratuity on things like fresh juice.  We have only eaten in the main dining room for breakfast and even then, it was just the two of us most of the time.  The teens are in the buffet.  I am just trying to wrap my head around paying $112 x four people plus all of the other gratuities.  They also only service the room once a day compared to two.  This is the first time where I just don't seem to be able to wrap my head around it. I'm easily swayed back to tipping, but wondering what protocol is now that so much dining is not in the main dining room.

I always tip my cabin stuart and extra 30-50 depending on the cruise length and my dinning room staff. (If good)  since you barely ate there i prob wouldnt.  The rest its spread around .  If a few were extra good around the ship i tip a little here and there. 

[Pyrate13]

14 hours ago, Rdclfamily said:

We paid nearly $3000 for an interior closet of a room for four people. I feel like the rate was decently high.  

And that rate will be even higher if all grats are added to the base fare, including grats for things you may never use.

[ray98]

How people justify expenses baffles me.  I am a total price type person, how it breaks down is not my concern.  Some put so much effort into wanting this or that 'included'.  $2000 + $500 or $2500 is the same either way.  You are not winning.

 

Look at the total....if the price is worth it enjoy your vacation.  If it is not then another form may be your best bet.

Edited December 4, 2023 by ray98

[sanger727]

10 hours ago, lazydayz said:

 

That is different.  As part of your job, you tipped them out. Your customers were not expected to tip them.  
 

The cruise lines are asking us to tip the servers, the bussers, the dishwashers, the laundry crew, etc.  

 

The customers are expected to tip sufficiently to pay both the wait staff and the back of the house out off the same bill. So when you tip 20%, the server only gets 14%. When I was a waitress, I had tables that cost me money because they didn't tip and I still had to tip out the back of the house. 

 

16 hours ago, Rdclfamily said:

This isn't about whether or not I can afford it.  It's about whether or not I can justify it.  $800-$1000+ for a week in gratuity is steep for the type of vacation we took i.e. not super desirable ports, just "okay" food, being off the boat three out of 7 days and tipping the staff off the boat, and an interior room for four people that left us having to stage when we get ready.   I might imagine we would pay this type of gratuity at a much fancier location or for a longer vacation.  It's just off base. I love cruising, I just think with the changes the cruise ships are making we might have to change the way we approach things.  I believe that everyone deserves fair gratuity, but I don't believe we are responsible for the entire pyramid top to bottom.  Carnival has a responsibility to evolve with the changes they are making.  Perhaps they can provide a bill in the MDR, and state how much the gratuity is based on how much the food would have cost us.  

 

What do you mean by you were off the boat 3 out of the 7 days? Were they port days or were you late joining the cruise? Your auto gratuities cover the dining room staff, Stewards, and other back of the house staff. On a port day, you still most likely have breakfast and dinner on the ship and your room still needs to be cleaned. That doesn't create much less work for the ship's staff that you have lunch off the ship.

[aborgman]

11 hours ago, jerseygirlinAZ said:

 

Land hotels don't even service rooms once a day anymore.  Stay three days?  No service.  We still tip because someone had to set up our room and will have to set it up for the next group.

 

Personally I don't need a steward to come by twice a day on a cruise, but I get people are used to that.

 

We also don't eat in the MDR often on cruises as we prefer specialty dining.  We tip both and a lot of places elsewhere.  We just consider it part of our vacation cost.  

 

Average tip for a hotel stay in the USA:

$1-$2 per night for a mid-range hotel, $0 for a budget hotel

 

Percentage of hotels with auto-gratuities:

Zero

 

Percentage of hotels where cleaners base salary is driven by tips:

Zero

[aborgman]

3 hours ago, ray98 said:

How people justify expenses baffles me.  I am a total price type person, how it breaks down is not my concern.  Some put so much effort into wanting this or that 'included'.  $2000 + $500 or $2500 is the same either way.  You are not winning.

 

Look at the total....if the price is worth it enjoy your vacation.  If it is not then another form may be your best bet.

 

The difference is - that when they advertise the $2500 price, they have to compete with other lines... and thus likely end up eating part of that charge in reduced pay/profits.

 

It's like minimum wage or tax increases - they largely AREN'T passed on to the consumer, but are eaten by employees/owners/stockholders.

[ray98]

17 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

The difference is - that when they advertise the $2500 price, they have to compete with other lines... and thus likely end up eating part of that charge in reduced pay/profits.

 

It's like minimum wage or tax increases - they largely AREN'T passed on to the consumer, but are eaten by employees/owners/stockholders.

They are still competing with other lines on the fare.  The additional costs you are harping on are pretty much standard in the industry and certainly comparable across the mainstream lines.

 

As for the rest....that is crazy talk.  EVERYTHING is passed on to the consumer.

[aborgman]

1 minute ago, ray98 said:

As for the rest....that is crazy talk.  EVERYTHING is passed on to the consumer.

 

Nope. Due to elasticity of demand, competition, and the existence of replacement goods - it absolutely isn't. Hundreds of studies of real world data have repeatedly shown this.

[mz-s]

11 minutes ago, ray98 said:

As for the rest....that is crazy talk.  EVERYTHING is passed on to the consumer.

 

We may be going off topic here but the reality is that something is only worth what people will pay. The cost to produce the good or service is irrelevant to the market. We saw this in the early part of the COVID restart where Carnival was giving away rooms to nearly everyone just to operate again and get some money coming in they didn't have to pay interest on. They were taking huge losses on every sailing.

 

The take home here is if the tides shift and tipping/gratuities go away, that does not necessarily mean higher prices by itself.

Edited December 4, 2023 by mz-s

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Average tip for a hotel stay in the USA:

$1-$2 per night for a mid-range hotel, $0 for a budget hotel

 

Percentage of hotels with auto-gratuities:

Zero

 

Percentage of hotels where cleaners base salary is driven by tips:

Zero

Percentage of hotels with resort fees 97%

[dallasdan]

5 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Percentage of hotels with resort fees 97%

and some of them are not resorts, especially in the winter, when you can't access the pool either.

[mz-s]

6 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Percentage of hotels with resort fees 97%

 

95.6% of all stats on the internet are made up on the spot.

[aborgman]

14 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Percentage of hotels with resort fees 97%

 

"The industry group American Hotel & Lodging Association said only 6 percent of hotels charge them"

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/travel/resort-fees.html

[Pyrate13]

2 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Nope. Due to elasticity of demand, competition, and the existence of replacement goods - it absolutely isn't. Hundreds of studies of real world data have repeatedly shown this.

Cite and identify some of these hundreds of studies.

[aborgman]

4 minutes ago, Pyrate13 said:

Cite and identify some of these hundreds of studies.

 

MacDonald, Daniel and Eric Nilsson. 2016. "The Effects of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Prices: Analyzing the Incidence of Policy Design and Context." Upjohn Institute Working Paper 16-260. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

 

Jardim, Ekaterina and Emma van Inwegen. 2019. "Payroll, Revenue, and Labor Demand Effects of the Minimum Wage." Upjohn Institute Working Paper 19-298. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

 

Fuest, Clemens, Andreas Peichl, and Sebastian Siegloch. 2018. "Do Higher Corporate Taxes Reduce Wages? Micro Evidence from Germany." American Economic Review, 108 (2): 393-418.

 

Scott R. Baker & Stephen Teng Sun & Constantine Yannelis, 2020. "Corporate Taxes and Retail Prices," NBER Working Papers 27058, National Bureau of Economic Research, Inc.

 

Aaronson, D. (2001). Price pass-through and the minimum wage. The Review of Economics
and Statistics, 83(1):158–169.

 

 

[ldubs]

13 hours ago, lazydayz said:

it could be I am tired of paying the daily rate and tipping extra.  My choice whether I continue to do both or opt out of one or the other.  There is no right answer, other than the cruise lines making tips mandatory or adding them to the base rate.  If Carnival won’t make the hard choice, that leaves it up to me.  

 

I was addressing the incorrect comparison in the earlier post.  You currently have the option to not tip extra or pull the gratuity altogether.   The latter one won't be supported by many, so best done without sharing in public. 

[Elaine5715]

40 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

"The industry group American Hotel & Lodging Association said only 6 percent of hotels charge them"

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/travel/resort-fees.html

That would only apply to their membership, not the industry.  

[Elaine5715]

27 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

MacDonald, Daniel and Eric Nilsson. 2016. "The Effects of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Prices: Analyzing the Incidence of Policy Design and Context." Upjohn Institute Working Paper 16-260. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

 

Jardim, Ekaterina and Emma van Inwegen. 2019. "Payroll, Revenue, and Labor Demand Effects of the Minimum Wage." Upjohn Institute Working Paper 19-298. Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

 

Fuest, Clemens, Andreas Peichl, and Sebastian Siegloch. 2018. "Do Higher Corporate Taxes Reduce Wages? Micro Evidence from Germany." American Economic Review, 108 (2): 393-418.

 

Scott R. Baker & Stephen Teng Sun & Constantine Yannelis, 2020. "Corporate Taxes and Retail Prices," NBER Working Papers 27058, National Bureau of Economic Research, Inc.

 

Aaronson, D. (2001). Price pass-through and the minimum wage. The Review of Economics
and Statistics, 83(1):158–169.

 

 

That is five plus "working papers" are not based in reality.  

[Elaine5715]

55 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

95.6% of all stats on the internet are made up on the spot.

I heard it was 97%?

[Elaine5715]

3 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Nope. Due to elasticity of demand, competition, and the existence of replacement goods - it absolutely isn't. Hundreds of studies of real world data have repeatedly shown this.

Where then do companies get revenue from, if not from customers?  Cost cutting doesn't produce revenue.  

[aborgman]

54 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

That would only apply to their membership, not the industry.  

 

Their membership basically IS the industry.

 

9 of the top 10 hotel chains in the USA by number of rooms are members of the AHLA.

Marriot, Choice, Hilton, IHG, Best Western, Wyndham, Red Roof, Hyatt, Accor, Motel 6... all members.

 

They represent ~2/3 of all hotel rooms in the USA, and the percentage is significantly higher among chains.