Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[mcrcruiser]

9 hours ago, sandiego1 said:

BBKings and Rollins Stone Rock room are bands and the lounges do have dance floors. We dance there almost every night while we are on the ship that have those lounges.

dancing to that loud music io is not dancing . HAL should set aside one venue for people who like check yp check type dancing 

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

............ check yp check type dancing 

 

Got to admit. It took me longer than normal to decode this one.

 

I pictured checkbooks spewed out on the floor instead of a sombrero; with folks whirling around them in a cruise ship rendition of the Mexican Hat Dance. 

 

PS: Please don't take offense, I think it's super sweet you still dance cheek to cheek with your wife. Blessings for many more years to you both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HamOp]

27 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Got to admit. It took me longer than normal to decode this one.

 

I pictured checkbooks spewed out on the floor instead of a sombrero; with folks whirling around them in a cruise ship rendition of the Mexican Hat Dance. 

 

PS: Please don't take offense, I think it's super sweet you still dance cheek to cheek with your wife. Blessings for many more years to you both.

 

 

You should consider a career with the government as a crypeopraher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HamOp]

You should consider a career with the government as a cryptographer.

[CruiseRQA]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:09 AM, HappyInVan said:

There is some concern that the older HAL ships lack the wow factor...

 

 

Many cruisers don't want to be wowed.   They want good service, good food, a relaxing walk around the promenade deck, maybe a spin or two at the roulette table before watching a show in the theatre.  Followed by a trip to the midnight buffet.  Rinse and repeat.    

[breakiron]

Carnival has totally rebuilt and refurbished 2 ships in the recent past.  The Carnival Destiny became the Sunshine in 2013 and the Carnival Triumph became the Sunrise in 2019.  These 2 ships are almost totally new ships.  HAL could do something on these lines but I really don't think they will anytime in the near future but maybe something to consider.

[Heidi13]

19 minutes ago, breakiron said:

Carnival has totally rebuilt and refurbished 2 ships in the recent past.  The Carnival Destiny became the Sunshine in 2013 and the Carnival Triumph became the Sunrise in 2019.  These 2 ships are almost totally new ships.  HAL could do something on these lines but I really don't think they will anytime in the near future but maybe something to consider.

 

They may have refreshed the hotel spaces and even upgraded the machinery, but they are hardly almost totally new ships. From a pax perspective they may look new, but from a Flag/Class perspective they remain the same age as the existing hull. It is the age of the hull, not hotel spaces that determine maintenance costs, which increase with age, then increase exponentially after about 20 - 25 yrs.

 

In the drydocking they may have replaced some steelwork, but that will only continue to increase as the hulls continue aging.

 

When all costs and downtime are considered, it is usually more cost effective to build new and offload older tonnage.

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

dancing to that loud music io is not dancing . HAL should set aside one venue for people who like check yp check type dancing 

 

Many people enjoy that music and they do dance to it, alone or together. I saw the dance floor packed most nights in B.B. Kings on the recent trans-atlantic cruise.

 

That said, I believe HAL does set aside an hour or so each evening for the kind of dancing you prefer -- @Haljo1935 help me out here. Wasn't there ballroom dancing offered around dinnertime on Nieuw Statendam? I seem to recall it on Westerdam in April as well.

 

[Haljo1935]

53 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Many people enjoy that music and they do dance to it, alone or together. I saw the dance floor packed most nights in B.B. Kings on the recent trans-atlantic cruise.

 

That said, I believe HAL does set aside an hour or so each evening for the kind of dancing you prefer -- @Haljo1935 help me out here. Wasn't there ballroom dancing offered around dinnertime on Nieuw Statendam? I seem to recall it on Westerdam in April as well.

 

I definitely saw people dancing and think I may have included a picture in one of my Lives. I will review the Dailies and see if there was something posted.

[Haljo1935]

@mcrcruiser Well that did take long - Ballroom Dancing was offered Dec 8 5:00 pm at BBs.

I didn't search other dates after I found this one, but happy to if anyone wants to know.

Good memory, @cruisemom42

[sandiego1]

4 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

dancing to that loud music io is not dancing . HAL should set aside one venue for people who like check yp check type dancing 

We often do cheek to cheek dancing in the 2 lounges I mentioned. They do play some slow songs. And friends are ballroom dance lovers and they dance to many of the tunes played there.

 

Others have complained it’s too loud. I wear ear plugs 😀 to soften the music and other friends turn down their hearing aids!

[mcrcruiser]

We need to check out BB kings for check to check dancing .Thanks for the tip

[mcrcruiser]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

They may have refreshed the hotel spaces and even upgraded the machinery, but they are hardly almost totally new ships. From a pax perspective they may look new, but from a Flag/Class perspective they remain the same age as the existing hull. It is the age of the hull, not hotel spaces that determine maintenance costs, which increase with age, then increase exponentially after about 20 - 25 yrs.

 

In the drydocking they may have replaced some steelwork, but that will only continue to increase as the hulls continue aging.

 

When all costs and downtime are considered, it is usually more cost effective to build new and offload older tonnage.

what you say here makes a lot of sense  .so seems that we won;t see any new ships for HAL for a while  perhaps in several years  .  The question always remains does HAL fit into the future marketing & business plans of CCL corporate  for future growth  If not ,i am sure there are other cruise lines that would add HAL to their line up 

[cruisemom42]

22 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

They may have refreshed the hotel spaces and even upgraded the machinery, but they are hardly almost totally new ships.

 

Even doing this makes a big difference in passengers' experience onboard. When Celebrity began launching their new "Edge" class ships, they had a big re-do of all of their existing ships (they called it "Revolutionizing" them or something similar) to keep a certain consistency of theme and decor among all of their ships. They updated the decor and added some of the same spaces (restaurants, lounges, etc.) that were on the new ships. I assume it helps with branding but it also kept their older ships looking fresh.

 

I wish HAL would do this with their existing fleet -- it would really help if they did a "Pinnacle make-over".

[Heidi13]

6 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Even doing this makes a big difference in passengers' experience onboard. When Celebrity began launching their new "Edge" class ships, they had a big re-do of all of their existing ships (they called it "Revolutionizing" them or something similar) to keep a certain consistency of theme and decor among all of their ships. They updated the decor and added some of the same spaces (restaurants, lounges, etc.) that were on the new ships. I assume it helps with branding but it also kept their older ships looking fresh.

 

I wish HAL would do this with their existing fleet -- it would really help if they did a "Pinnacle make-over".

 

Yes, totally agree that a hotel space refresh enhances the pax experience and helps to maintain a cruise line's branding, which naturally changes over time.

 

However, the fact remains that you have shiny new pax spaces on an older ship, with the associated requirement for more frequent and continuously increasing maintenance costs.

 

This was the model used by my last company, which planned to keep the hulls for 40 years, sometimes increasing to 60 yrs. The ships were removed from service every 10 yrs, with the 1st major refit seeing an update to the hotel spaces, then after 20 yrs the ships were re-engined, new lifesaving equipment, new piping, new cables, etc. It does work, but also requires steel replacement in increasing amounts. Since our business dropped off outside of the summer months, we had sufficient downtime to remove ships from service every year for a 1-month maintenance period. That is not cost effective for cruise ships, so is another impediment for cruise lines.

 

Unfortunately, many cruise lines place ever increasing economy of scale and reduced maintenance costs, by building ever larger new tonnage, over enhancing the pax experience on smaller, older tonnage.

[cruisemom42]

11 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Unfortunately, many cruise lines place ever increasing economy of scale and reduced maintenance costs, by building ever larger new tonnage, over enhancing the pax experience on smaller, older tonnage.

 

At some point doesn't this model have to "break"?  If nothing else, ports are becoming more active about the crowds these huge ships bring to their doorstep.

 

It's interesting to hear how things change over time. I remember going aboard Holland America's Nieuw Amsterdam II in 1972 with my grandmother for a "look-see" when she was docked in Port Everglades. Back then, travel agents were happy to arrange for passengers to go aboard visiting ships to get a feel for them.

 

Nieuw Amsterdam was at that time about 35 years old (built in 1937) and I was awestruck by the impressive decor, so much so that I still remember it. I believe she operated another two years, making her 37 when she left HAL's fleet. Were standards regarding ships' steel and hull different then, or was the money just spent on updating her all along?

 

 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

The only thing that makes me apprehensive with older ships is the plumbing. The only times I've experienced plumbing back ups have been on older ships. Could be a coincidence.

 

Perhaps @Heidi13 wouldn't mind commenting on old build vs new build plumbing systems? I think it's still on topic since this has to do with HAL sailing older ships.

[mcrcruiser]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

At some point doesn't this model have to "break"?  If nothing else, ports are becoming more active about the crowds these huge ships bring to their doorstep.

 

It's interesting to hear how things change over time. I remember going aboard Holland America's Nieuw Amsterdam II in 1972 with my grandmother for a "look-see" when she was docked in Port Everglades. Back then, travel agents were happy to arrange for passengers to go aboard visiting ships to get a feel for them.

 

Nieuw Amsterdam was at that time about 35 years old (built in 1937) and I was awestruck by the impressive decor, so much so that I still remember it. I believe she operated another two years, making her 37 when she left HAL's fleet. Were standards regarding ships' steel and hull different then, or was the money just spent on updating her all along?

 

 

 

Interesting that you remembered those details .That vessel was pre WW2   vintage  .something  like the orginal Queen Mary now a hotel in  Long Beach Calif 

[mcrcruiser]

1 minute ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The only thing that makes me apprehensive with older ships is the plumbing. The only times I've experienced plumbing back ups have been on older ships. Could be a coincidence.

 

Perhaps @Heidi13 wouldn't mind commenting on old build vs new build plumbing systems? I think it's still on topic since this has to do with HAL sailing older ships.

 Yes we run into that on another cruise line 

[kazu]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Nieuw Amsterdam was at that time about 35 years old (built in 1937) and I was awestruck by the impressive decor, so much so that I still remember it. I believe she operated another two years, making her 37 when she left HAL's fleet. Were standards regarding ships' steel and hull different then, or was the money just spent on updating her all along?

 

N Amsterdam was my first HAL ship and I fell in love. 😊 

 

Just like the Prinsendam was much older (and still operating) than the current ships in the fleet, I believe the standards for building those ships was higher.  They still needed updates - no question but I had an interesting conversation with the staff captain on the Prinsendam on the Lido and he pointed me to several things and explained that none of the new ships have this type of construction.

 

Remember how our old appliances would last for 25-30 years?  The age of existing is usually 10 if you are lucky.  Things were built to last and endure back then.  

[sunviking90]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The only thing that makes me apprehensive with older ships is the plumbing. The only times I've experienced plumbing back ups have been on older ships. Could be a coincidence.

 

Perhaps @Heidi13 wouldn't mind commenting on old build vs new build plumbing systems? I think it's still on topic since this has to do with HAL sailing older ships.

I wonder about this as the only ships we’ve experienced plumbing issues on have been HAL ships. Our cabin was flooded on the last day of a Zaandam cruise and she was about 10 years old at the time. Certainly not ancient. We also had water spraying out into the hall on a Zuiderdam cruise when she was only about 6 years old. We have taken almost 40 cruises over the last 30+ years and haven’t experienced this on any other lines. I’m not sure why.

[sunviking90]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

At some point doesn't this model have to "break"?  If nothing else, ports are becoming more active about the crowds these huge ships bring to their doorstep.

 

It's interesting to hear how things change over time. I remember going aboard Holland America's Nieuw Amsterdam II in 1972 with my grandmother for a "look-see" when she was docked in Port Everglades. Back then, travel agents were happy to arrange for passengers to go aboard visiting ships to get a feel for them.

 

Nieuw Amsterdam was at that time about 35 years old (built in 1937) and I was awestruck by the impressive decor, so much so that I still remember it. I believe she operated another two years, making her 37 when she left HAL's fleet. Were standards regarding ships' steel and hull different then, or was the money just spent on updating her all along?

 

 

 

How lucky for you to be able to visit that ship. What a classic.

[sunviking90]

19 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

Remember how our old appliances would last for 25-30 years?  The age of existing is usually 10 if you are lucky.  Things were built to last and endure back then.  

Everything is made to be thrown away now. When I was a kid almost everything was made in North America, and prices reflected that. I don’t think people would have stood for an appliance only lasting 10 years back then as things were expensive! I think my parents paid $500 for their first dishwasher back in 1979, and it was still working 30 years later. You can still get a low end dishwasher for $500 now, but it won’t last that long, nor will a higher end one.

[HappyInVan]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

At some point doesn't this model have to "break"? 

 

 

The industry needs to organize in order to adapt. Observe what MSC is doing.

 

They have 200k ton ships. You have low prices, lots of entertainment and the wow factor, if you don't mind the crowds. They have a new brand 'Explorer' running mid-size luxury cruises. The luxury market is booming and very profitable if your product is popular.

 

Eventually, they can run a lower price version of the mid-size ships if the growth opportunity is there.

 

CCL needs to reorganize its brands. Carnival for pax interested in cheap and cheerful. Princess for pax wanting something better. HAL for pax interested in destinations and service quality; mid-size ships.

 

There will be something for everyone. But, don't expect HAL to deliver the experience you like at Carnival prices.

 

[TRLD]

Keep in mind that CCL is pretty clear on how it is positioning HAL.  It is focused on longer, unique itineraries, on the smallest average size ships of any of the US focused main stream lines.  Even its most recent builds are less that 3000.  Celebrity has the next smallest average ship size of the main stream lines, but has far shorter average cruise lengths and visits far few unique destinations.

 

As far as age goes I did a comparison of percentage of fleet at various ages between HAL and Princess (existing fleets sailing today.

 

                                  HAL                                 Princess

Less than 10             35%                                 47%

10 to 20                     44%                                 43%

Over 20                     21%                                 10%

 

It changes a bit when one look at 2025 when the two Princess new builds are in the fleet.

At that time Princess will look like (if they do not retire any of their older ships

Princess in 2025 with new builds.

 

Less than 10 years     42%

10-20 years                30%

Over 20                      28%

 

Both lines have had periods as long as 5 years without new builds.  The challenge for HAL is to maintain its under 3000 ship size with its higher per passenger construction and operation costs, while the other mainstream lines are going with larger more cost efficient ships.

 

I would not be surprise if CCL were to pull in a couple of ships similar in size to the HAL fleet from one of its other brands.  Of all of the CCL owned lines the one that has increased its overall passenger capacity the most in the last few years is Aida with the addition of 3 over 5000 capacity ships.  Prior to the addition of those ships most of their ships were less that 3000.  If CCL wanted to they could take one or more ships from Aida, remodel them, and move them to HAL and still have more passenger capacity with AIDA than 5 years ago.  Aida currently has 5 ships in the 2100 to 2700 size that are less than 14 years old.  These ships would have another 10 years service life as a HAL ship if they chose to do so.  That would enable CCL to continue to add large ships to Aida, while keeping HALs smaller average ship size in its fleet while delaying new builds for a couple of more years.