Just off Prima- Not the best cruise...

[BostonGal35]

8 minutes ago, UKstages said:

i think the clearest solution to this problem is to sail the ship they built in climates that are generally better suited to capitalize on the number and variety of outdoor spaces. NCL seems reluctant to take that approach with the prima. reviews of the prima for caribbean itineraries are far better than for its icelandic and norwegian journeys. there is a reason for that!

 

people will freeze on this ship in northern europe.  and then they'll bring her to NYC im sure.   i disagreed with Getaway being in NYC because the Haven courtyard has no retractable roof thus rendering that courtyard useless in the cold/rain.   we were lucky with weather, but seriously, if you are paying $8k for haven and it rains, where do you go and what do you do on a sea day?  the balconies are quite large (at least in Haven) but we never use ours as we prefer to be out and abotu socializing rather than hiding in our room all week.

[luv2kroooz]

14 minutes ago, UKstages said:

reviews of the prima for caribbean itineraries are far better than for its icelandic and norwegian journeys. there is a reason for that!

Your well thought out post makes a lot of sense to me. However, for Caribbean itineraries, there is but one small free pool with very little deck space on the main lido deck. There are two or three infinity pools somewhere on a lower deck. They look very, very small to me. 

 

We were on Emerald Princess in November which is similar in size to Prima...maybe a bit smaller. There were four freshwater pools....two were huge, one out in the back deck was smaller, and one by their spa was smaller. All free to use. We just found the layout of the Lido deck to be very smart. There was always a place to get a seat.

Edited January 15 by luv2kroooz

[Tenderpaw]

They do have heaters over the outdoor seating, so I guess if its just cold, it might be ok but if you add some rain to the mix, not so good.

 

Somehow NCL thought that people would be more dispersed.  Well, it isn't happening and that assumption should have been studied further before spending hundreds of millions on a couple new ships.  People tend to want to do the "big" things all at once.  Sid Normans and Improv spaces are a joke.  The Observation lounge has great views and very little seating.  And the buffet?  Well, I'm not sure "retraining people" will work.  Locals is good though.  Food Hall is ok.  And the dining rooms are an option but I don't think the lunch menu changes day to day.  Dinner menus do change.

[debenson0723]

19 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

We are seeing cutbacks galore in the entertainment areas of all cruise lines.  No one would have ever thought that the traditional cruise ship entertainment would be coming back with cruise ship performers.  When Epic debuted in 2010 it had 3 major licensed Vegas Style acts:  Blue Man, Legends In Concert, Cirque Dreams.   Then it was two and now just one. 

Hard to compare what entertainment was like 14 years ago vs. today. I am just off the Viva and there were multiple venues with entertainment...Beetlejuice (the Broadway production), Icons, a Las Vegas style review, the Fleetwood Mac Rumours show in Syd Norman's and various singers/duo in the Metropolitan bar and Atrium area both in the afternoon and evening. There might have been more but that is what I saw. Not sure what you mean by "cruise ship performers' as all of these acts were performing on a cruise ship. Having sailed the Prima on a cold weather cruise, I was not a fan of this ship configuration but with the Viva in warm weather, it appeared to be much less crowded as people were spread out more on the ship. 

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, luv2kroooz said:

The problems have been identified over and again by amateurs and veterans alike. Fincantieri is currently working on solutions to the design flaws. They'll get it right.

 

53 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

You seem to imply that the engineers can't or don't make mistakes?

I agree with the common criticisms that many have voiced about Prima/Viva, in particular that many venues are just too small.  The implication is they should be bigger.  Does my saying the venues are too small make me an "amateur nautical engineers "?  I think I'm not, I'm just a passenger relaying my opinion based on my experiences.

 

The solution to these problems isn't so simple as just make the ship longer or just make this venue larger. What people are missing is this:  a ship is just so big. Anytime one makes something bigger, something else must be made smaller.  Or, if the idea is to make the ship bigger, then the budget for the ship must be bigger which means more cabins, more passengers, and you're back where  you began, a lot of people crowding the same areas.  

 

What this comes down to is this:  everyone has their favorites and wish those could be of them.  But that comes at the expense of something else.  Trade-offs must be made.

 

For example, I couldn't care less about the Pour House.  Others couldn't care less about the Haven.  Just think how great the Pour House could be if NCL only eliminated the Haven and installed a huge Pour House.  

 

 

[brookie848]

1 hour ago, BostonGal35 said:

 

people will freeze on this ship in northern europe.  and then they'll bring her to NYC im sure.   i disagreed with Getaway being in NYC because the Haven courtyard has no retractable roof thus rendering that courtyard useless in the cold/rain.   we were lucky with weather, but seriously, if you are paying $8k for haven and it rains, where do you go and what do you do on a sea day?  the balconies are quite large (at least in Haven) but we never use ours as we prefer to be out and abotu socializing rather than hiding in our room all week.

The Breakaway was designed as a NY ship -- there is a roof over the Haven. That's why I don't understand why they put the Getaway out of NYC. I mean, I do realize that people want to see different shows and that might be one reason for the switch, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't want to pay Haven prices to sail out of NYC in the winter and not have a roof over the Haven. Plus, I greatly disliked the Getaway's Haven.

 

We're on the Viva next month. I'm really curious what we think of this ship. We have a port-heavy itinerary (no sea days and really good port times), so that in and of itself will make passenger flow interesting. We only have plans for three ports and plan on exploring the ship on those other days. I'm hoping we like her because we already have 2025 booked.

[brookie848]

1 hour ago, debenson0723 said:

Hard to compare what entertainment was like 14 years ago vs. today. I am just off the Viva and there were multiple venues with entertainment...Beetlejuice (the Broadway production), Icons, a Las Vegas style review, the Fleetwood Mac Rumours show in Syd Norman's and various singers/duo in the Metropolitan bar and Atrium area both in the afternoon and evening. There might have been more but that is what I saw. Not sure what you mean by "cruise ship performers' as all of these acts were performing on a cruise ship. Having sailed the Prima on a cold weather cruise, I was not a fan of this ship configuration but with the Viva in warm weather, it appeared to be much less crowded as people were spread out more on the ship. 

Do you happen to have the Dailies for your sailing? I'm really curious when shows and other events are going to be with no sea days (things like tastings, Latitudes gatherings, etc.).

[debenson0723]

31 minutes ago, brookie848 said:

Do you happen to have the Dailies for your sailing? I'm really curious when shows and other events are going to be with no sea days (things like tastings, Latitudes gatherings, etc.).

No, I'm sorry I do not keep them past the day they are relevant. 

[ColdCruise]

2 hours ago, brookie848 said:

Do you happen to have the Dailies for your sailing? I'm really curious when shows and other events are going to be with no sea days (things like tastings, Latitudes gatherings, etc.).

@brookie848 There are several live trip reports for both Viva & Prima that have the dailies posted in the thread. 
 

You can search the NCL forum or look in the live reports area:

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/ourpicks/Live/

[brookie848]

17 minutes ago, ColdCruise said:

@brookie848 There are several live trip reports for both Viva & Prima that have the dailies posted in the thread. 
 

You can search the NCL forum or look in the live reports area:

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/ourpicks/Live/

I have seen those, but they aren't the most recent ones that are the same (or close) to our sailing.

[BirdTravels]

6 hours ago, Tenderpaw said:

 

My issue isn't the ships overall size, but rather the public venues are too small.  All of them are too small for the number of passenger.  And arriving super early to get one of the limited seats isn't something we should have to do on vacation. 

 

I said make the ship bigger as a solution.  But another solution would be to have a couple of less revenue producing areas so that the ship could have 2 large public venues for events and entertainment.  YOu know, like most ships have.

NCL stopped adding a second large lounge with the Epic (bliss lounge) 14 years ago. It’s not in their approach to entertainment. It is nothing new. And it is nothing that you will find on any of the newer NCL ships. 
 

NCL is catering to the contemporary cruisers, not old folks like me. With Ocean Blvd, it has the most outdoor space per passenger than any other new cruise ship on any line. The contemporary cruiser is not looking for a pool to do laps in, they are looking for a “cool water feature” to stand with a drink. The Prima delivers that. 
 

We found the Prima Haven to be stunning and light years ahead of anything the Royal has to offer. Even the Suites (not Haven) dining room on the Prima is light years ahead of the pathetic Coastal Kitchen on Royal. (And we are Diamond members on Royal any only sail in suites on Royal). Our last  Royal cruise last year was in a 2-story loft,,, and while the room was outstanding, the services and suite features was closer to steerage on NCL than anything special. 

Edited January 16 by BirdTravels

[SeaShark]

5 hours ago, luv2kroooz said:

So true. Some just can't twist their mind around the notion that NCL could possibly get anything wrong.

 

No doubt very similar to the armchair cruise critics who are 100% self-assured that they know better than the people who design ships for a living.

[SeaShark]

7 hours ago, luv2kroooz said:

Well, it's the prevailing logic in the industry, not just on cruisecritic. The lounges are woefully undersized as has been confirmed over and again by hundreds of thousands of passengers. Most passengers understandably don't want to wait in lines for an hour to get one of seventy seats in a lounge or comedy club to watch a show that lasts for an hour. It's a known design flaw. So maybe they should be more practical in their ship designs. Their goal sounded good in theory, but didn't play out in practice. They'll get it fixed in future builds.

 

7 hours ago, Tenderpaw said:

 

My issue isn't the ships overall size, but rather the public venues are too small.  All of them are too small for the number of passenger.  And arriving super early to get one of the limited seats isn't something we should have to do on vacation. 

 

I said make the ship bigger as a solution.  But another solution would be to have a couple of less revenue producing areas so that the ship could have 2 large public venues for events and entertainment.  YOu know, like most ships have.

 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

it's not that the prima has a few things wrong with it, a few things badly designed and/or executed, a few careless and thoughtless experiments.

 

no, no, no... it's the convergence of so many bad ideas gone wrong all at once.  it's the cumulative effect of so many of these things together with one of the poorest management teams at sea... it's truly terrifying to sail onboard the prima... a comedy of terrors.

 

speaking of comedy, how's that improv club working out for them?

 

you know, the one that is too small for comedy, so they use it for trivia, singles meetups, lectures and art auctions?

 

Given how sure you all are, perhaps your up to a challenge (yeah, right). Go get the deck plans for Prima/Viva and edit/redraw them to where they'd represent YOUR idea of what the professionals got wrong and how you'd fix it. Then come back an upload your plans. 

[mugtech]

Confirms I will never be sailing Viva or any of her sisters.

[UKstages]

1 hour ago, SeaShark said:

No doubt very similar to the armchair cruise critics who are 100% self-assured that they know better than the people who design ships for a living.

 

the people who deigned the apollo 13 spacecraft designed spaceships for a living.

 

the people who designed the boeing 737 max designed airplanes for a living.

 

and, needless to say, the people who designed the prima and the viva are professionals, who design and build and market cruise ships for a living. 

 

sometimes they get it ridiculously right. and sometimes they get it horribly wrong. and sometimes their product is used in unique and novel ways that the designers had not anticipated - or there are unpredictable catastrophic flaws in infrastructure or design - and course correction is necessary. and sometimes the designers and/or execs are so blind to their own vision, and so removed from the actual user experience that they make terrible unforgivable mistakes.

 

the people who created "new coke" designed and marketed soft drinks for a living.

 

the people at kodak, who popularized personal photography and who actually designed the first digital camera, thought it would destroy their company if they didn't protect what they considered their core business... film. and so they abandoned digital photography. they lost huge revenue share and had to file for bankruptcy.

 

most product failures occur because the business doesn't get feedback from its end users before they launch a new product and/or they are resistant to feedback and course correction after they do. management tends to live in a vacuum, shielded from the real world and the actual customer experience.

 

you think harry sommer ever walked around the indulge food hall for 45 minutes looking for a table?

 

1 hour ago, SeaShark said:

Given how sure you all are, perhaps your up to a challenge (yeah, right). Go get the deck plans for Prima/Viva and edit/redraw them to where they'd represent YOUR idea of what the professionals got wrong and how you'd fix it. Then come back an upload your plans. 

 

you do realize we're not designers or architects, right? most of us can't accept your heartfelt and well-meaning challenge simply because we can't draw or draft blueprints. we also have no formal relationship with NCL that would permit such a project. nor would NCL accept designs from us.

 

but you don't need to be an architect or ship designer to know there are too few seats in the indulge food hall and that the improv can only fit about 70 people on a ship of 3000 and that there is soot on many deck chairs and that the outdoor space is unusable in cold weather climates and that there are disturbing and persistent noises coming from within the walls of many cabins. and some here on cruise critic and other social media sites have provided that feedback to NCL and also done so in their post-cruise surveys. that's all we can do... it's not our job to design new deck plans or new ships.

 

what architects do is take that customer feedback and then set about to see if there is a better way to achieve many of the same goals they originally set, while responding to overwhelming customer feedback that may influence their subsequent designs... all while meeting the revenue and budget goals of the cruise line. that's why there is no starbucks in the indulge food hall on the viva!  not because a designer decided he or she had made a mistake... but because hundreds or thousands of guests told NCL that they couldn't find a seat when attempting to dine in indulge.

 

so, yes, i guess you could say that we do know better.

Edited January 16 by UKstages

[SeaShark]

13 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

the people who deigned the apollo 13 spacecraft designed spaceships for a living.

 

the people who designed the boeing 737 max designed airplanes for a living.

 

and, needless to say, the people who designed the prima and the viva are professionals, who design and build and market cruise ships for a living. 

 

sometimes they get it ridiculously right. and sometimes they get it horribly wrong. and sometimes their product is used in unique and novel ways that the designers had not anticipated - or there are unpredictable catastrophic flaws in infrastructure or design - and course correction is necessary. and sometimes the designers and/or execs are so blind to their own vision, and so removed from the actual user experience that they make terrible unforgivable mistakes.

 

the people who created "new coke" designed and marketed soft drinks for a living.

 

the people at kodak, who popularized personal photography and who actually designed the first digital camera, thought it would destroy their company if they didn't protect what they considered their core business... film. and so they abandoned digital photography. they lost huge revenue share and had to file for bankruptcy.

 

most product failures occur because the business doesn't get feedback from its end users before they launch a new product and/or they are resistant to feedback and course correction after they do. management tends to live in a vacuum, shielded from the real world and the actual customer experience.

 

you think harry sommer ever walked around the indulge food hall for 45 minutes looking for a table?

 

 

you do realize we're not designers or architects, right? most of us can't accept your heartfelt and well-meaning challenge simply because we can't draw or draft blueprints. we also have no formal relationship with NCL that would permit such a project. nor would NCL accept designs from us.

 

but you don't need to be an architect or ship designer to know there are too few seats in the indulge food hall and that the improv can only fit about 70 people on a ship of 3000 and that there is soot on many deck chairs and that the outdoor space is unusable in cold weather climates and that there are disturbing and persistent noises coming from within the walls of many cabins. and some here on cruise critic and other social media sites have provided that feedback to NCL and also done so in their post-cruise surveys. that's all we can do... it's not our job to design new deck plans or new ships.

 

what architects do is take that customer feedback and then set about to see if there is a better way to achieve many of the same goals they originally set, while responding to overwhelming customer feedback that may influence their subsequent designs... all while meeting the revenue and budget goals of the cruise line. that's why there is no starbucks in the indulge food hall on the viva!  not because a designer decided he or she had made a mistake... but because hundreds or thousands of guests told NCL that they couldn't find a seat when attempting to dine in indulge.

 

so, yes, i guess you could say that we do know better.

 

Except that I wouldn't. Simply because, as noted, you don't.

 

If you can't alter a set of already published deck plans (knows everything about ship design but can't edit a jpg using Microsoft Paint...smh), then expound on your example. On a ship of 3,000 what exactly is the correct number of seats for the Improv?

[PATRLR]

12 hours ago, graphicguy said:

They have opened up other venues to dine in....which is the purpose behind having a smaller buffet and the Indulge Food Hall.  It's going to take a while to get guests to rethink their dining concepts on board a cruise ship.

One problem with Indulge/Local as the alternative to the buffett is they are on deck 8.  If I am up on 16/17 I really don't want to go all the way down to 8 to get something to eat.  Part of this problem is an operational decision by NCL by limiting hours.  But that's NCL  being cheap, not a design issue.  

Maybe they thought more people would be hanging on deck 8.  While there are more people on deck 8 than you'll find on the *Away* classes, there aren't so many that it justifies the lack of casual food up top.

I think deck 8 has some beautiful areas, but on the Caribbean cruise I was on, that space was woefully under utilized compared to the upper decks. 
 

[PATRLR]

12 hours ago, Tenderpaw said:

They do have heaters over the outdoor seating, so I guess if its just cold, it might be ok but if you add some rain to the mix, not so good.

They do on Prima?  I was on Viva and at one point I looked becuase I was curious and I didn't recognize anything that looked like a heater.  I didn't think there was anything around either of the "beaches" nor the "Terrazza" areas.  Maybe back around Indulge there is?  How about back by Soleil?

[PATRLR]

6 hours ago, SeaShark said:

then expound on your example. On a ship of 3,000 what exactly is the correct number of seats for the Improv?

Why do any of us have to expound on what the correct number is?  Why can't we state observations?  If every time I walked by Syds/Improv and I stuck my head in (if I could) and saw a packed SRO venue why can't I conclude that those venues are too small?   If I notice that every time the buffet is open, they have to prop open the unmarked back door to Food Republic so people have a place to eat why can't I conclude that the buffet is too small?  Clearly the NCL staff has concluded it's too small - or are you going to criticize those folks as armchair designers too?

Edited January 16 by PATRLR

[PATRLR]

9 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

NCL is catering to the contemporary cruisers, not old folks like me. With Ocean Blvd, it has the most outdoor space per passenger than any other new cruise ship on any line. The contemporary cruiser is not looking for a pool to do laps in, they are looking for a “cool water feature” to stand with a drink. The Prima delivers that. 

As does the Viva. My observation during my December Viva Southern Caribbean cruise is the "contemporary cruiser" still prefers to be on Deck 17 and the traditional pool.  Maybe eventually the demographic will work on these new ships, but my observation is they currently aren't working as I think the designers intended.

[dexddd]

16 hours ago, bluefish17 said:

I was recently in the Haven on the Viva and found it to be far superior to my only other Haven experience on Breakaway. All Haven cabins are together on the aft. No courtyard but rather a large 2 deck outdoor area, larger Haven restaurant including outside seating, large indoor and outdoor bar, and dedicated Haven elevators. I'm already booked for Prima Haven on next cruise.

But if weather not good, that Haven outside space is useless.

[BirdTravels]

22 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

As does the Viva. My observation during my December Viva Southern Caribbean cruise is the "contemporary cruiser" still prefers to be on Deck 17 and the traditional pool.  Maybe eventually the demographic will work on these new ships, but my observation is they currently aren't working as I think the designers intended.

Don’t know. When we were on the Viva, the contemporary cruiser was on Deck 8 on Ocean Blvd from dawn to long after dusk. Still with toes dangling Olin the water and a drinking in hand. 
 

People still like to compare the Viva to the Escape… this is bigger on the 4500 passenger Escape than the 3100 passenger Viva. Proportionally, that is like comparing the features of the Escape to the 6000 passenger Oasis of the Sea… the escape does not have an Aqua theater or Central Park or Boardwalk with a carousel that no one ever uses. 

[seemoreroyals]

Second week of December on Prima we had 3700 people crammed on a ship designed for around 3000.  Venues like improv, atrium, buffet, observation lounge, pool area, and pour house were almost always overcrowded during peak times.  The belvedere bar and sometimes the metropolitan bar were the only two bar areas that seemed to have elbow room in them.

 

With as many kids on board I can understand why pool, buffet, and observation lounge were packed.  We expected the pour house and improv to be packed and they were.  In the improv as others have reported it was literally packed like sardines.  Our thoughts were after a certain point you would think they would quit letting people in.  But people kept coming in.

 

Our biggest disappointment was the atrium area in the evenings.  We could rarely get a seat to listen to the lounge acts.  There was this oversized couch just off from the main seating area that took up a lot of space that could have otherwise provided additional seating to watch the entertainment.  It was often occupied by one or two families and 5 to 10 kids jumping around and doing what kids do.  

 

 

 

 

[PATRLR]

37 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Don’t know. When we were on the Viva, the contemporary cruiser was on Deck 8 on Ocean Blvd from dawn to long after dusk. Still with toes dangling Olin the water and a drinking in hand. 

This is one view of Viva during a sail-away.  I wish I had a similar picture of deck 17 but I assure you there were far more people on 17 than down on 8.  Warm weather cruise, if the demographic preferred 8, I'd expect to see a lot more people down there.

[luv2kroooz]

1 hour ago, BirdTravels said:

People still like to compare the Viva to the Escape

Some compare Viva to Jewel class and it fails miserably on multiple fronts.....🥱🥱